Pope Francis Addresses Evangelicals

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Lifesong said:
No worries! I was never a Pentecostal anyway so other than what I see on TV I really don’t know about their churches. As a Methodist, even though I thought of myself as
Evangelical, as opposed to the more liberal and less orthodox elements that can sometimes be present in the mainline Protestant denominations, my formation was one of orthodox Christianity though not the fullness of the faith. My Methodist friends have been pretty supportive thankfully. And I guess I just want to see everyone at the table:)
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Oh believe me, so do I. The forces of Hell would tremble if every Christian was united.👍
 
Miserissima said:
While not a Catholic bishop (because he has questionable apostolic succession), he is recognized as a bishop (holding the office of an overseer) amongst his church of separated brethren as will as by the Holy Father.

You can’t say a say that a daisy isn’t a flower because you’ve seen a rose. They’re both flowers. Our better still, you can’t say that the corpse flower is any less a plant than a tomato vine.
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But he does not have Apostolic Succession; he does not have Holy Orders. Both are required for a bishop.
 
digitalpapist said:
But he does not have Apostolic Succession; he does not have Holy Orders. Both are required for a bishop.
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Both are required for a Catholic bishop.

He is a bishop, but not a Catholic bishop. These are not interchangeable terms. He is an overseer, but lacks (or may lack) Apostolic Succession. You’re right, the former has holy orders, the latter is a title.

I agreed with you about the Apostolic Succession, already. But there are two definitions for bishop, one specifically Catholic and one not.
 
total_Catholic said:
Straight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

(And for the record, I never said God was outside the CC. I simply stated what Holy Scripture has stated, God is NOT the author of confusion. Blessings your way.)
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I wasn’t talking about embracing doctrine, I was talking about embracing traditions. I am blessed to now have the full Truth and fullness of the Catholic church. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t still love singing the Hymns I was raised on, or that I can’t get something out of a Presbyterian sermon that addresses the issues in my life in a fuller way than the 4 minute (albeit wonderful) homily my priest delivers because he doesn’t want to scare people off from the Mass. All I’m saying is that perhaps Bishop Tony is thinking that there can be a melding of some traditions. The Church is doing such things with Anglican parishes that are converting - maybe there are other ways to do this (without compromising on theology).
 
DAML72 said:
I wasn’t talking about embracing doctrine, I was talking about embracing traditions. I am blessed to now have the full Truth and fullness of the Catholic church. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t still love singing the Hymns I was raised on, or that I can’t get something out of a Presbyterian sermon that addresses the issues in my life in a fuller way than the 4 minute (albeit wonderful) homily my priest delivers because he doesn’t want to scare people off from the Mass. All I’m saying is that perhaps Bishop Tony is thinking that there can be a melding of some traditions. The Church is doing such things with Anglican parishes that are converting - maybe there are other ways to do this (without compromising on theology).
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The Anglican Ordinariate route (ala Patheos link posted earlier) sounds like a viable option, after the bishop’s pedigree has been investigated, of course.

To lighten the mood a bit, this is the kind of change I would not welcome: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=861852

😃
 
DAML72 said:
I wasn’t talking about embracing doctrine, I was talking about embracing traditions. I am blessed to now have the full Truth and fullness of the Catholic church. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t still love singing the Hymns I was raised on, or that I can’t get something out of a Presbyterian sermon that addresses the issues in my life in a fuller way than the 4 minute (albeit wonderful) homily my priest delivers because he doesn’t want to scare people off from the Mass. All I’m saying is that perhaps Bishop Tony is thinking that there can be a melding of some traditions. The Church is doing such things with Anglican parishes that are converting - maybe there are other ways to do this (without compromising on theology).
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DAML72,

I think you are exactly right. Your example of the Anglican Use rite is spot on. I believe we are well on our way to unity of the Christian faith. Yes, Protestants will unite with Catholics, but I don’t think that the Catholic Church will end up being the same as now, only much bigger. No, the Catholic Church will become far more diverse, with perhaps 40 or 50 rites instead of the 21 or so we have now.

I also agree that we will inevitably absorb some of the culture of some of the ecclesial communities we unite with, and that it will be a good thing. There is, as you say, great richness in many Protestant traditions which can only enrich and invigorate the Catholic faith. Jesus will decide how it all plays out - I’m sure He has already decided. It will be a miracle. I hope I live long enough to witness it in the flesh.

When I see the horrible evils in the world today, I take hope that those evils are acting as a catalyst to drive people of good will toward Christian unity.

Paul
 
PaulDupre1 said:
DAML72,

I think you are exactly right. Your example of the Anglican Use rite is spot on. I believe we are well on our way to unity of the Christian faith. Yes, Protestants will unite with Catholics, but I don’t think that the Catholic Church will end up being the same as now, only much bigger. No, the Catholic Church will become far more diverse, with perhaps 40 or 50 rites instead of the 21 or so we have now.

I also agree that we will inevitably absorb some of the culture of some of the ecclesial communities we unite with, and that it will be a good thing. There is, as you say, great richness in many Protestant traditions which can only enrich and invigorate the Catholic faith. Jesus will decide how it all plays out - I’m sure He has already decided. It will be a miracle. I hope I live long enough to witness it in the flesh.

When I see the horrible evils in the world today, I take hope that those evils are acting as a catalyst to drive people of good will toward Christian unity.

Paul
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Thank you. It’s not that I think I’m right - I have no idea why Bishop Tony hasn’t made a full conversion. I just get very frustrated by what I perceive to be an elitist attitude among many Catholics. There are many reasons why Protestants might choose to stay where they are. It doesn’t help the unification cause to criticize people who just aren’t ‘there’ yet, but still love the Lord and want to follow him. Maybe Bishop Tony is right where the Lord wants him right now. I have heard that He ‘works in mysterious ways.’ 😉
 
Wow!!

Very impressed by both his Grace Anthony Palmer’s remarks and the Holy Father’s response in this video: youtube.com/watch?v=b5TwrG8B3ME

Here is another wonderful, challenging talk by Palmer to members of his own congregation: youtube.com/watch?v=rtrcW74yJak

I sense the Holy Spirit at work in Anthony Palmer. Haven’t heard that kind of Fire since the old days with Ralph Martin and the Charismatic Renewal.
 
HansTrappist said:
Wow!!

Very impressed by both his Grace Anthony Palmer’s remarks and the Holy Father’s response in this video: youtube.com/watch?v=b5TwrG8B3ME

Here is another wonderful, challenging talk by Palmer to members of his own congregation: youtube.com/watch?v=rtrcW74yJak

I sense the Holy Spirit at work in Anthony Palmer. Haven’t heard that kind of Fire since the old days with Ralph Martin anI Id the Charismatic Renewal.
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Fr. Longenecker wrote,

“For one so enthusiastic about union with the Catholic Church he is poorly informed. He says in his talk that before the Reformation the Catholic church taught salvation by works. No. That’s called Pelagianism and it was the Catholic Church that firmly refuted both Pelagianism and semi Pelagianism in the early centuries. Mr Palmer’s most gross error is telling the Pentecostal audience that doctrine doesn’t matter and that it will all be sorted out in heaven. This is totally irresponsible. If doctrine doesn’t matter why was Mr Palmer so intent to prove to the Pentecostals that the Catholic Church and the Lutherans now agree on justification? For that matter, if doctrine doesn’t matter why doesn’t Mr Palmer and all the Pentecostals simply join the Catholic Church? If it all doesn’t matter then it would be fine for them to join the Catholic Church. It would all be sorted out in heaven. No, I think doctrine does matter, and most self respecting Evangelical scholars and commentators would also pick up the enthusiastic Mr Palmer for such a lazy error in thinking. Brantley Millegan over at Aleteia picks through the Bishop’s message and discovers several other howlers which indicate a skewed theology, leaky historical understanding and weak understanding of ecumenism and ecclesiology.” ( patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2014/02/pentecostal-celtic-anglican-tradition.html) so I’ll take his word for it.

A charismatic speaker, yes, but a misinformed one.
 
Miserissima said:
Fr. Longenecker wrote,

“For one so enthusiastic about union with the Catholic Church he is poorly informed. He says in his talk that before the Reformation the Catholic church taught salvation by works. No. That’s called Pelagianism and it was the Catholic Church that firmly refuted both Pelagianism and semi Pelagianism in the early centuries. Mr Palmer’s most gross error is telling the Pentecostal audience that doctrine doesn’t matter and that it will all be sorted out in heaven. This is totally irresponsible. If doctrine doesn’t matter why was Mr Palmer so intent to prove to the Pentecostals that the Catholic Church and the Lutherans now agree on justification? For that matter, if doctrine doesn’t matter why doesn’t Mr Palmer and all the Pentecostals simply join the Catholic Church? If it all doesn’t matter then it would be fine for them to join the Catholic Church. It would all be sorted out in heaven. No, I think doctrine does matter, and most self respecting Evangelical scholars and commentators would also pick up the enthusiastic Mr Palmer for such a lazy error in thinking. Brantley Millegan over at Aleteia picks through the Bishop’s message and discovers several other howlers which indicate a skewed theology, leaky historical understanding and weak understanding of ecumenism and ecclesiology.” ( patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2014/02/pentecostal-celtic-anglican-tradition.html) so I’ll take his word for it.

A charismatic speaker, yes, but a misinformed one.
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I am more interested in what Pope Francis and his Grace Anthony Palmer had to say than complaints to the contrary.
 
HansTrappist said:
Wow!!

Very impressed by both his Grace Anthony Palmer’s remarks and the Holy Father’s response in this video: youtube.com/watch?v=b5TwrG8B3ME

Here is another wonderful, challenging talk by Palmer to members of his own congregation: youtube.com/watch?v=rtrcW74yJak

I sense the Holy Spirit at work in Anthony Palmer. Haven’t heard that kind of Fire since the old days with Ralph Martin and the Charismatic Renewal.
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If so, I expect his conversion to the Faith at any moment.
 
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