Pope Francis agitates conservative U.S. Catholics

[zz912]

There are doctrinal errors among conservatives as well as among liberals.

Such as?

 

[edwest2]

Thank you for the having the courage to post this. This is exactly what I have experienced for the last 17 years. I am actually MORE puzzled now by the chasm between the so-called conservative US bishops and the widespread liberal tendencies and practices I experience in my local Church life. Two different planets. I cannot figure out what is going on or why it is like this. It makes me uncomfortable. And there is this feeling in the air that if you ask questions, you lack faith and/or are being divisive.

Catholics are living on two different planets. One is in Church surrounded by the presence of God and after? Everybody gets in their cars and goes home. My former Parish used to have various societies that built people up spiritually and created friendships. We need authentic Catholic communities outside the Church building.

Once out that door is you and a 24/7 media, including the internet, telling people, but not in so many words: “Do things our way.” And one hour in Church I think is not enough to counter the constant bad messages coming from the media, including what is wrongly called “entertainment” in too many cases.

A criminal who runs a business making and selling meth? Zombies graphically doing graphic, bloody things and the graphic killing of same. What is little Billy thinking about? The good, clean, wonderful things he could do for fun or smashing zombie skulls? Wake up, my friends.

Peace,
Ed

 

[boar2roar]

My biggest pet peeve is those who try to label Catholics in political terms…Conservative, Liberal, Progressive, etc. etc.

There’s only two choices: A Catholic that’s loyal to Church teaching and one who is not. There’s no in between.

Its not that simple. What about the bishops themselves who fit these labels? Cardinal muller and Kasper (liberals) are completely different from Burke (conservative) who in turn is different from Lefebvre (traditionalist). Unless you consider the liberal wing not loyal to church teachings which I could understand but you’d have a hard time explaining that to the cardinals that are the church establishment and in their own eyes are loyal to church teaching.

Even the church isn’t a monolithic block, labels make sense and those who deny them are refusing to see reality.

 

[Rin]

I neither agree nor disagree with Big Bang. I lean toward disagreeing with this, but I do not believe in a 10,000 year universe either. All I know is that a close friend of mine has stopped going to church b/c Pope Francis has made several pronouncements against beliefs that he has held all his life. My wife feels the same about him, but SHE will never stop attending Mass regardless of the Pope’s words.

I said this to those who disliked the changes under Pope Benedict XVI, and I will say the same to those who dislike the changes under Pope Francis or any future pope: If one leaves their faith or stops going to Mass because of what one pope says or decrees, then perhaps their faith was built on sand to begin with.

Sadly, many people’s faith is contingent on some arbitrary discipline: Some who converted in the seventies, are so attached to the (often more… untraditional expressions of) the liturgical reform, that they would leave the Church if we ever were to return to a more traditional liturgy. Some conservatives are so attached to their aversions against certain groups of (in some cases only perceived) sinners, that any lenience would cause them to leave.

Such people are not Catholic first, they are anti-[insert sin or perceived sin] or progressive first. Additionally, they often mistake what is merely a change of discipline, but still completely orthodox, as rejection of doctrine, or rejection of Vatican II.

In reality, the Church has changed rather central disciplines on many occasions throughout history, and it will happen again. Some changes will be detrimental (and as an Orthodox priest I once met said, in that case they will changed back soon enough - it’ll rarely take more than a few centuries ), and some will be beneficial. Which is true can rarely be determined within the same generation. And in either case, the promises given to St. Peter remain true. The only thing I know, is that my faith in the Church remains, even though I have huge issues with the conservative and progressive camps alike, and refuse to buy the propaganda of either. Ideology is currently running rampant in the Church, in all camps, and it is damaging, but the Church will survive this. It has survived worse.

 

[Rin]

Its not that simple. What about the bishops themselves who fit these labels? Cardinal muller and Kasper (liberals) are completely different from Burke (conservative) who in turn is different from Lefebvre (traditionalist). Unless you consider the liberal wing not loyal to church teachings which I could understand but you’d have a hard time explaining that to the cardinals that are the church establishment and in their own eyes are loyal to church teaching.

Even the church isn’t a monolithic block, labels make sense and those who deny them are refusing to see reality.

I agree that denying them is refusing to see reality.

I do however detest them (the ideologies, not the people; I am sure Kasper as well as Burke are honest and pious people of good will, who only want the best for the Church and Her children).

 

[ProVobis]

I said this to those who disliked the changes under Pope Benedict XVI, and I will say the same to those who dislike the changes under Pope Francis or any future pope: If one leaves their faith or stops going to Mass because of what one pope says or decrees, then perhaps their faith was built on sand to begin with.

Sadly, many people’s faith is contingent on some arbitrary discipline: Some who converted in the seventies, are so attached to the (often more… untraditional expressions of) the liturgical reform, that they would leave the Church if we ever were to return to a more traditional liturgy. Some conservatives are so attached to their aversions against certain groups of (in some cases only perceived) sinners, that any lenience would cause them to leave.

Such people are not Catholic first, they are anti-[insert sin or perceived sin] or progressive first. Additionally, they often mistake what is merely a change of discipline, but still completely orthodox, as rejection of doctrine, or rejection of Vatican II.

In reality, the Church has changed rather central disciplines on many occasions throughout history, and it will happen again. Some changes will be detrimental (and as an Orthodox priest I once met said, in that case they will changed back soon enough - it’ll rarely take more than a few centuries ), and some will be beneficial. Which is true can rarely be determined within the same generation. And in either case, the promises given to St. Peter remain true. The only thing I know, is that my faith in the Church remains, even though I have huge issues with the conservative and progressive camps alike, and refuse to buy the propaganda of either. Ideology is currently running rampant in the Church, in all camps, and it is damaging, but the Church will survive this. It has survived worse.

Disapproval shows itself in ways other than attending Mass. They give less, they sing less, they participate less, they send their kids to public schools, etc. It seems the obligation to attend is the only thing that still keeps them coming, along with maybe some social event.

 

[Mark121359]

Conservative or liberal, orthodox or heterodox, this Catholic who once thought she knew her faith and has always been true to church teaching is confused and dismayed. (Along with countless others.) Notwithstanding the media reports which I know are mostly pure spin, I still cannot believe all those things that cause the most alarm are always mis-translations or poor journalism. We know what happened with the midterm report and we know by the words of their own mouths that some advocate a radical departure from all we hold dear. Regarding all these threads on the pope said this, or the pope said that, I’ve stopped reading them because I don’t understand what they mean. There must be a point, other than to cause controversy, but obviously it is too deep for me to comprehend. They leave me hanging in mid-air, bamboozled and left to my own speculations. This is not the way it is supposed to work, nor an effective method to instill a deeper faith. We have a right to clear and concise instruction. So I’m with AB Chaput…'confusion is of the devil."

No Tigg, you’re not alone. I’m in the same boat with you! Too many Catholics today are being catechized by the culture. And there are a great deal of them who occupy the Church hierarchy. And those who don’t see this split that’s developing among conservatives and progressives in the Church need their eyes checked. I never thought I’d see the day that those in the hierarchy would even consider a thing such as; whether the Church could learn to “accept” the homosexual “orientation.” This does nothing but sow the seeds of confusion. And we all know who the master of that is. No wonder Cardinal Burke and others are so concerned! That said, I’m a firm believer that the Holy Spirit will not permit the Gates of Hell to prevail against the Church. So be at peace!

Peace, Mark

 

[Rin]

Disapproval shows itself in ways other than attending Mass. They give less, they sing less, they participate less, they send their kids to public schools, etc. It seems the obligation to attend is the only thing that still keeps them coming, along with maybe some social event.

This is of course true, but my point still stands.

 

[boar2roar]

I agree that denying them is refusing to see reality.

I do however detest them (the ideologies, not the people; I am sure Kasper as well as Burke are honest and pious people of good will, who only want the best for the Church and Her children).

Everyone who has opinions can be fit into some sort of ideology though. Unless you are some rare extreme centrist(that can still be an ideology) or all over the place you can usually fit somewhere. Its not that they purposely try to conform to them its just thats how they view the world. Remember ideologies don’t tell you how to act they just describe you.

Whats wrong with ideologies though? Our church is one of the longest standing center right institutions in history.Conservative catholicism stands for keeping things the same, a good thing. Traditionalists like preserving well tradition, theres no reason to hate them.

 

[1newcatholic]

Disapproval shows itself in ways other than attending Mass. They give less, they sing less, they participate less, they send their kids to public schools, etc. It seems the obligation to attend is the only thing that still keeps them coming, along with maybe some social event.

I think there are many reasons that people might not send their kids to Catholic school–fear of abuse, for example, or the inability to pay increasing tuition costs. It’s unsettling to associate someone’s ability to contribute time and money to the church with some kind of disapproval of or disagreement with the church.

Even still, showing up and participating when your opinions are treated contemptuously is harder than you think. Or maybe not–wouldn’t you have a hard time being enthusiastic about a place where your particular brand of ideology, conservative or liberal, was constantly criticized? Church isn’t supposed to be about political opinions, but in the US at least, the culture wars of the religious right have deeply affected Catholic culture. It’s ironic, watching people combat “secularism” with some counter-ideology. You can’t fight fire with fire.

 

[PTL]

No Tigg, you’re not alone. I’m in the same boat with you! Too many Catholics today are being catechized by the culture. And there are a great deal of them who occupy the Church hierarchy. And those who don’t see this split that’s developing among conservatives and progressives in the Church need their eyes checked. I never thought I’d see the day that those in the hierarchy would even consider a thing such as; whether the Church could learn to “accept” the homosexual “orientation.” This does nothing but sow the seeds of confusion. And we all know who the master of that is. No wonder Cardinal Burke and others are so concerned! That said, I’m a firm believer that the Holy Spirit will not permit the Gates of Hell to prevail against the Church. So be at peace!

Peace, Mark

You are right. What worries me is not gates of hell will prevail against the Church. It won’t , because the Bible said so. What concerns me is the Church being attacked from within. That is what happening right now. Someone is trying to destroy the Church from within.

However, let’s not be confused. There is nothing to be confused. We know the doctrine, we know the church’s teaching, we know God’s words could not be changed that marriage is between a man and a woman. Whoever says otherwise to confuse us should be stopped. They are not from God. We should stick to the truth.

 

[lerapt78]

You are right. What worries me is not gates of hell will prevail against the Church. It won’t , because the Bible said so. What concerns me is the Church being attacked from within. That is what happening right now. Someone is trying to destroy the Church from within.

I’m glad you said that; I’ve thought it before, but wasn’t sure if that idea would be tolerated on the forum.

I too believe that the gates of Hell will not prevail. We will win the war . . . .but that doesn’t mean that we won’t lose some battles along the way.

 

[PTL]

I’m glad you said that; I’ve thought it before, but wasn’t sure if that idea would be tolerated on the forum.

I too believe that the gates of Hell will not prevail. We will win the war . . . .but that doesn’t mean that we won’t lose some battles along the way.

I think there is a similarity in our nation. The progressive wants to destroy America from within. Thank God for the midterm election, there is at least hope now.

The evil one is good at structing from within. Remember the story of the Trojan Horse.

 

[abucs]

We’ve seen the disaster in the Episcopal Church when the hierarchy gives in to the liberal media culture.

I pray Pope Francis will not take us down that divisive and destructive path.

So far he hasn’t, despite the cheering of some who would like him to try.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I just think it’s presumptuous and a tad unfair to label anyone “lukewarm” given the obvious allusion to Jesus’s parable. And given what happens to the lukewarm there, I think it comes off as a bit preachy.

Yes because only God truly knows the temperature of another’s heart. Tone is important. And though I don’t know how well he’s succeeding in this, Pope Francis I think is at least trying to get Catholics to speak in a gentler tone. As you said in another post in the interest of opening the Church to the world.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Actually, the majority of Catholics don’t even attend Mass. They’ve left the faith.

I have a question for you: Is someone who violates the doctrines of the faith living a Christian life?

CCC 818 “…All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation…”

CCC 838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety…”

 

[Sy_Noe]

We’ve seen the disaster in the Episcopal Church when the hierarchy gives in to the liberal media culture.

I pray Pope Francis will not take us down that divisive and destructive path.

So far he hasn’t, despite the cheering of some who would like him to try.

There’s no disaster in the Episcopal diocese where I live. It’s growing. There has been little dissent and not a single church has left.

 

[Estevao]

Do the bashers of the Pope have an explanation for why Pope Benedict hasn’t said anything if things are as bad as they’re making it out to be in the seat of Peter?

 

[abucs]

There’s no disaster in the Episcopal diocese where I live. It’s growing. There has been little dissent and not a single church has left.

Thanks for the information that the disaster hasn’t affected where you live.

 

[Tigg]

CCC 818 “…All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation…”

CCC 838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety…”

You posted reference 818 on another thread. Both times you have left out the first sentence which is, " “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers…” This rather changes the picture doesn’t it since it is not speaking of baptized Catholics, but the poster you responded to…was.

No cherry picking allowed when reading the Catechism. You need to go down a few paragraphs. The Church has not changed her teaching regarding salvation:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that **the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: **the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.