Pope Francis and Sacred Musicians Call for the Reform of the Refrain

  • Thread starter Thread starter edwest2
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Quote of Pope Francis from the article:
At times, a certain mediocrity, superficiality and banality have prevailed, to the detriment of the beauty and intensity of liturgical celebrations
With all due respect to the Holy Father, that has to be the understatement of the year.
 
Yes, and for some reason he is the archenemy of conservative Catholics these days. Obviously he isn’t all bad. :rolleyes: (Personally I don’t think he’s bad at all! 😉 And he’s doing some wonderful things for our church today! :D)
I would like to know the total percentage of “conservative” Catholics as part of the total laity.

Ed

The Catholic Church is not a political party.
 
I would like to know the total percentage of “conservative” Catholics as part of the total laity.

Ed

The Catholic Church is not a political party.
You are right. That does sound political. Maybe “Traditional” is a better word? ( Or whom Pope Francis has coined more “rigid” Catholics.) There are many on these forums who do not agree with or support Pope Francis, some to the extent of wishing he was not our Holy Father. 😦
 
You are right. That does sound political. Maybe “Traditional” is a better word? ( Or whom Pope Francis has coined more “rigid” Catholics.) There are many on these forums who do not agree with or support Pope Francis, some to the extent of wishing he was not our Holy Father. 😦
Rigidity can take root in anyone who starts clinging to any particular mindset. With regard to the Holy Father, most Catholics I know disagree with him on cohabitation, contraceptives, etc. Sometimes they get nasty too. Dissent happens on all “sides”. What we should be doing is encouraging thoughtful conversations that reflect the dignity of persons, and not worrying about black vs. white, conservatives vs. liberals, “trads” vs “modernists”, etc.

God bless.
 
Did anyone read what the Holy Father said? It is accepting of both traditional and new music. Using the word “banality” does not make him traditional, especially since he only used it as a problem that sometimes occurs, not something inherent in Catholic music today.
On the one hand it calls for safeguarding and enhancing the rich and manifold patrimony inherited from the past, balancing it with the present and avoiding the risk of a nostalgic or “archaeological” outlook. On the other hand, it is necessary to ensure that sacred music and liturgical chant be fully “inculturated” in the artistic and musical language of the current time; namely, that they are able to incarnate and translate the Word of God into song, sound and harmony capable of making the hearts of our contemporaries resonate, also creating an appropriate emotional climate which disposes people to faith and stirs openness and full participation in the mystery being celebrated.
The one thing that is consistent is the need for participation over performance, and that the music reach people in a way that they can understand. Thus, when considering the music, the question should not be what the choir is capable of singing, but what is singable, and to what will the people most readily respond in singing.
 
Did anyone read what the Holy Father said? It is accepting of both traditional and new music. Using the word “banality” does not make him traditional, especially since he only used it as a problem that sometimes occurs, not something inherent in Catholic music today.

The one thing that is consistent is the need for participation over performance, and that the music reach people in a way that they can understand. Thus, when considering the music, the question should not be what the choir is capable of singing, but what is singable, and to what will the people most readily respond in singing.
Weeeeeeeell… I hear what you’re saying, however, in his Ad Limina Address (October 1998), Pope John Paul II reminded U.S. bishops that “active participation does not preclude the active passivity of silence, stillness and listening: indeed, it demands it. Worshippers are not passive, for instance, when listening to the readings or the homily, or following the prayers of the celebrant, and the chants and music of the liturgy. These are experiences of silence and stillness, but they are in their own way profoundly active.”

Underline mine, for emphasis.

But back to the aspect you’re bringing up, one helpful step to increasing singing participation, which to me seems like a no-brainer, is to go back to using the choir loft.

When people hear strong singing behind them, they are more likely to chime in than when the choir is in front of/facing them. This phenomenon is a relative generality, and I realize there are exceptions, but it has been confirmed by virtually every experience I’ve had with choir lofts. I would imagine it’s psychological, and would be interested if someone did a study on it.
 
Did anyone read what the Holy Father said? It is accepting of both traditional and new music. Using the word “banality” does not make him traditional, especially since he only used it as a problem that sometimes occurs, not something inherent in Catholic music today.

The one thing that is consistent is the need for participation over performance, and that the music reach people in a way that they can understand. Thus, when considering the music, the question should not be what the choir is capable of singing, but what is singable, and to what will the people most readily respond in singing.
I made a post briefly, but realized I hadn’t completely understood what was being said.

The merits of the “inculturated” point are unclear to me. As I see it, the accessible beauty of sacred music has little to do with when it was written and what country it was from. Since we are finite, material beings, we will always bring something of our time and place to our music; it’s impossible not to. But, if we believe that the Mass is a union of heaven and earth, then composers of sacred music ought to try to have some timeless quality to it, as the more anchored music becomes in a particular time and place, the less universal and transcendent it is.

Now, that doesn’t mean that I’m only for old music, or Latin, or whatever. 21st Century music can be just as transcendent, as anything that’s come before it. The thing that I’m not understanding is why we would want to is focus on the spatio-temporal elements of music. Familiarity may dispose one to a kind of participation, however I don’t see it as particularly disposing people to higher, spiritual participation. I grew up in the 80’s, and will probably love 80’s music until I die, but I remember being more stirred by Suo Gân from Steven Spielberg’s Empire of the Sun than any other song in a popular movie. It wasn’t because I have any proclivity toward Welsh or because I have any connection to its 19th Century period, it was because the song expresses a beautiful emotion in a timeless way. I am passive to its beauty, and cannot help but be drawn into the reality of the parental love expressed in it. As much as I enjoy The Power of Love from Back to the Future, when I sing along to it, I’m more caught up in the catchy music itself than I am connected to the wonderful reality of being in love, which is what that song is supposed to express. So I experience catchy, inculturated sacred music similarly.

Then, I’d bring up St. John Paul’s reminder to U.S. bishops that that “active participation does not preclude the active passivity of silence, stillness and listening: indeed, it demands it. Worshippers are not passive, for instance, when listening to the readings or the homily, or following the prayers of the celebrant, and the chants and music of the liturgy. These are experiences of silence and stillness, but they are in their own way profoundly active.”

I’d love to see more singing in the pews. But singing does not necessarily = full/conscious/active participation, and one can certainly sing without a spiritual internalization of it.

:twocents:
 
The merits of the “inculturated” point are unclear to me. As I see it, the accessible beauty of sacred music has little to do with when it was written and what country it was from. Since we are finite, material beings, we will always bring something of our time and place to our music; it’s impossible not to. But, if we believe that the Mass is a union of heaven and earth, then composers of sacred music ought to try to have some timeless quality to it, as the more anchored music becomes in a particular time and place, the less universal and transcendent it is.
I see it differently, or maybe the same way, I do not know.

So, liturgy is when heaven and earth are wedded and Man worships the transcendent God. Where do we meet? The middle? Hardly. There was no way we can even meet anywhere approaching God. No, we have to meet where Man is, not God. Without the incarnation, there could be no meeting God. The divine becomes flesh. That is why I do not see being anchored, as you describe it, as bad. Sure, it cannot be all that music is. But for the sake of our own weakness, it is good that we have some music that stirs both the soul and the intellect in this time and in this place, whatever place that is. If Jesus would reach to Earth, then the His Bride is willing to reach into every corner of humanity; culturally and geographically, and meet sinners at all stages of this pilgrimage.

I know for some, silence is the most powerful worship. I am glad my bishop has asked for insertion of liturgical silence. Like you said, some people participate fully without a word, even while others are singing. I use some chant, a little Latin, a lot from the hymnal and whatever else I believe helps people worship. That is my approach. I know a lot of people benefit from the Praise and Worship type of music. I have little of that, but sometimes my Psalm is written in that genre.
 
I see it differently, or maybe the same way, I do not know.

So, liturgy is when heaven and earth are wedded and Man worships the transcendent God. Where do we meet? The middle? Hardly. There was no way we can even meet anywhere approaching God. No, we have to meet where Man is, not God. Without the incarnation, there could be no meeting God. The divine becomes flesh. That is why I do not see being anchored, as you describe it, as bad. Sure, it cannot be all that music is. But for the sake of our own weakness, it is good that we have some music that stirs both the soul and the intellect in this time and in this place, whatever place that is. If Jesus would reach to Earth, then the His Bride is willing to reach into every corner of humanity; culturally and geographically, and meet sinners at all stages of this pilgrimage.

I know for some, silence is the most powerful worship. I am glad my bishop has asked for insertion of liturgical silence. Like you said, some people participate fully without a word, even while others are singing. I use some chant, a little Latin, a lot from the hymnal and whatever else I believe helps people worship. That is my approach. I know a lot of people benefit from the Praise and Worship type of music. I have little of that, but sometimes my Psalm is written in that genre.
Well, please see that I’m not saying it’s necessarily bad that music is “anchored”. I don’t think we can help but create music that is rooted in our temporal, earthly environment. I agree that God has come to us, where we are.

What I am saying, on the other hand, is firstly, that we are capable of a greater (or lesser) degree of universality and transcendence in such expressions as music. The tradition of our Church has acknowledged this over and over. Secondly, then, and following this point, is that if there is an appropriate occasion to use such expressions, it is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

So the music at Mass can be rooted in time/place (because it’s always rooted in time/place) and yet elevated at the same time. I do not view this as a black or white issue (I am not a black or white kind of guy). We can talk about this in matters of degrees. It’s difficult to satisfy everyone, but insofar as we can, I think we should err on the side of more universal, more transcendent music.
 
Did anyone read what the Holy Father said? It is accepting of both traditional and new music. Using the word “banality” does not make him traditional, especially since he only used it as a problem that sometimes occurs, not something inherent in Catholic music today.

The one thing that is consistent is the need for participation over performance, and that the music reach people in a way that they can understand. Thus, when considering the music, the question should not be what the choir is capable of singing, but what is singable, and to what will the people most readily respond in singing.
Could you give some examples of new music that could be used in the liturgy?

Also, what constitutes “banal and mediocre” in the realm of music? Aren’t we employing terms that apply to personal tastes? For example, I find contemporary praise worship mediocre, but that is my opinion; hence I have no objective basis for calling it mediocre.
 
Could you give some examples of new music that could be used in the liturgy?
Open a hymn book and take a pick. How about, “Here I am Lord.” I use it occasionally in ordinary time.
Also, what constitutes “banal and mediocre” in the realm of music?
It may be a matter of taste, but if the cumulative decision is something is crummy music, I can see it being called banal. I know that even the best composers of Christian music have some really inspired music that will touch most who listen to it. Now, some of the musicians are put on staff and then to save royalties, crank out music for a living. Some of it will still be good. Some sure seems forced to me.

Even for Gregorian Chant, I could write something that might well be less inspiring as “Panis Angelicus,” especially if I did so in a day or two just to prove a point. Older music is almost never banal, not because it is better by nature, but because the lesser works pass into oblivion. I sometimes like to think of what is in the current hymnal from this century that might still be around in some form in five centuries.
 
Open a hymn book and take a pick. How about, “Here I am Lord.” I use it occasionally in ordinary time.

It may be a matter of taste, but if the cumulative decision is something is crummy music, I can see it being called banal. I know that even the best composers of Christian music have some really inspired music that will touch most who listen to it. Now, some of the musicians are put on staff and then to save royalties, crank out music for a living. Some of it will still be good. Some sure seems forced to me.

Even for Gregorian Chant, I could write something that might well be less inspiring as “Panis Angelicus,” especially if I did so in a day or two just to prove a point. Older music is almost never banal, not because it is better by nature, but because the lesser works pass into oblivion. I sometimes like to think of what is in the current hymnal from this century that might still be around in some form in five centuries.
Good music does seem to be determined by the general consensus. One thing bugs me though. Whenever we encounter good liturgical music, we usually call it beautiful. Now, in the history of Christian and classical thought, Beauty is considered an objective value. It makes no sense to call something beautiful if calling it such is merely a function of our personal taste. If we define beauty as a qualitative value that makes the truth shine out all the more, then contemporary praise can indeed be called beautiful. There are many people here on CAF, however, who think beauty conforms to their narrow tastes. They never bring philosophy to bare on the subject.
 
Good music does seem to be determined by the general consensus. One thing bugs me though. Whenever we encounter good liturgical music, we usually call it beautiful. Now, in the history of Christian and classical thought, Beauty is considered an objective value. It makes no sense to call something beautiful if calling it such is merely a function of our personal taste. If we define beauty as a qualitative value that makes the truth shine out all the more, then contemporary praise can indeed be called beautiful. There are many people here on CAF, however, who think beauty conforms to their narrow tastes. They never bring philosophy to bare on the subject.
Yes, I think the mind of the Church, for most of Her history, has reflected this: beauty is objective. It is for this reason that the Church teaches that chant is intrinsically more proper to the liturgy than other forms of music, even if also sacred.

In general, I definitely see a lot more priests chanting parts of the Mass in recent years… perhaps Gregorian chant is still hard to find outside of cathedrals and EF parishes, but plain chant in the vernacular is quite widespread I find.
 
Yes, I think the mind of the Church, for most of Her history, has reflected this: beauty is objective. It is for this reason that the Church teaches that chant is intrinsically more proper to the liturgy than other forms of music, even if also sacred.

In general, I definitely see a lot more priests chanting parts of the Mass in recent years… perhaps Gregorian chant is still hard to find outside of cathedrals and EF parishes, but plain chant in the vernacular is quite widespread I find.
Have you heard of Dr. Dietrich Von Hildebrand, a German Roman Catholic philosopher who Pope emeritus Benedict praised as one who may potentially go down as one of the best RC philosophers of the 20th century? You might want to try reading some his books and essays. He writes a lot about values in his “Ethics”; he also has quite a bit to say about beauty. Liturgically, he was very much a traditionalist (although he saw the need for reform), which is why you don’t see many people on CAF consulting his works regarding the liturgy.
Unfortunately, the dominate trend (at least in the US) in the RCC seems to be that beauty is something that merely suits our tastes. It's an expression of personal preference and nothing more.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top