P
ProVobis
Guest
Good enough. Thanks for that. Encouraging.
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jwinch2
Guest
You’re welcome, and I agree that it is encouraging.
P
PJD1987
Guest
I would like to third the feeling of encouragement
S
Sodalis
Guest
I do agree that it is quite encouraging. I’m guessing someone doesn’t find it so, however, because it looks like the link has been scrubbed from the website. Even doing a search, nothing comes up.
buscador.clarin.com/diario?filter=content_section:Sociedad;&from=01/09/2007&to=30/09/2007&page=3&
J
jwinch2
Guest
Very odd. I wonder why that would happen? What could possibly be the harm in knowing that situation?
So that we have it. Here is the original Spanish as well.
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JReducation
Guest
I think that we have to be careful not to go to extremes. First of all, no pope is superman and Jesus was not running for pope.
There are many important issues facing the new pope. He has to prioritize. While to the traditionalist the Extraordinary Form of the mass may seen like a priority, to a pope who takes the name Francis, it may not be on his top ten list of issues to deal with.
He is famous for not allowing anyone to call him Your Eminence, Your Excellency or chauffeur him around. He is Jorge or simply Father Jorge to the people of Buenos Aires.
He is very committed to the life of prayer, detachment from material things, and proclaiming the Gospel to the poorest of the poor.
He is committed to Christian unity with other Christians.
He loves his Jesuit order.
He is also very committed to the ideals of St. Francis of Assisi – commitment to preaching, penance, reform the Church from a triumphalist Church to a humble Church. It is very likely that he will focus on cleaning house inside the Vatican infrastructure.
I think he set the tone of his papacy with his greeting. The first thing that he asked the people to do was to pray with him, then pray for him. Both of these are gestures that the Seraphic Father did while he was superior general of our order.
His second gesture was his refusal to wear the typical red worn by popes as they come to the Loggia for their first blessing. It reflected his simplicity and the simplicity that he hopes to bring to the Church. We’ll be seeing less pomp and circumstance and greater simplicity.
His third gesture was walking past the papal limousine that was to take him to the hotel. Instead, he boarded the bus along with the other cardinals.
In addition, we must remember that the liturgical reform begun by Pope Benedict was not about imposing the EF on the Church. It was about cleaning the OF of the nonsense that people have inserted into it, so that it is what it’s meant to be, a prayer and act of worship. As an admirer of the Seraphic Father, I can see him continue this work.
Remember, St. Francis banned Gregorian Chant from his houses. The Tridentine Mass adopted by Trent and later tweaked by Pope Pius V, was originally celebrated by the Franciscans alone. No one else used it. Pope Pius inserted the Gregorian Chant and a few other details that were not there: prayers at the foot of the altar, a final Gospel, the preparation of the gifts at the offertory. When the Franciscans celebrated it, the mass did not have these components. There were few distinctions between the priest and the laity. The friars were not allowed to distinguish themselves as priests – those who were priests. Not all friars are priests.
After the reforms by Pope Pius V, the Franciscans never embraced these reforms and were not expected to do so. It was only later that some superiors insisted on adopting them. The adoption was never uniform to the entire Franciscan order.
The point that I’m making is not against the EF, but I’m trying to explain that if he is true to the vision of St. Francis, his focus will be in reforming the liturgy so that it is an act of worship, be it in the Ordinary or Extraordinary form. Rebuilding the Church is not about one form of the mass over the other, but about praying the mass as it should be prayed in any form and any rite.
I don’t know how true this is, but I heard that in using the EF in his diocese, his requirement was that it be celebrated as most Franciscan superiors insist that their friar priests do, using the current liturgical calendar and allowing non-ordained men or women read the epistle. I read this on some blog. You can’t always trust what you read on blogs.
There are many important issues facing the new pope. He has to prioritize. While to the traditionalist the Extraordinary Form of the mass may seen like a priority, to a pope who takes the name Francis, it may not be on his top ten list of issues to deal with.
He is famous for not allowing anyone to call him Your Eminence, Your Excellency or chauffeur him around. He is Jorge or simply Father Jorge to the people of Buenos Aires.
He is very committed to the life of prayer, detachment from material things, and proclaiming the Gospel to the poorest of the poor.
He is committed to Christian unity with other Christians.
He loves his Jesuit order.
He is also very committed to the ideals of St. Francis of Assisi – commitment to preaching, penance, reform the Church from a triumphalist Church to a humble Church. It is very likely that he will focus on cleaning house inside the Vatican infrastructure.
I think he set the tone of his papacy with his greeting. The first thing that he asked the people to do was to pray with him, then pray for him. Both of these are gestures that the Seraphic Father did while he was superior general of our order.
His second gesture was his refusal to wear the typical red worn by popes as they come to the Loggia for their first blessing. It reflected his simplicity and the simplicity that he hopes to bring to the Church. We’ll be seeing less pomp and circumstance and greater simplicity.
His third gesture was walking past the papal limousine that was to take him to the hotel. Instead, he boarded the bus along with the other cardinals.
In addition, we must remember that the liturgical reform begun by Pope Benedict was not about imposing the EF on the Church. It was about cleaning the OF of the nonsense that people have inserted into it, so that it is what it’s meant to be, a prayer and act of worship. As an admirer of the Seraphic Father, I can see him continue this work.
Remember, St. Francis banned Gregorian Chant from his houses. The Tridentine Mass adopted by Trent and later tweaked by Pope Pius V, was originally celebrated by the Franciscans alone. No one else used it. Pope Pius inserted the Gregorian Chant and a few other details that were not there: prayers at the foot of the altar, a final Gospel, the preparation of the gifts at the offertory. When the Franciscans celebrated it, the mass did not have these components. There were few distinctions between the priest and the laity. The friars were not allowed to distinguish themselves as priests – those who were priests. Not all friars are priests.
After the reforms by Pope Pius V, the Franciscans never embraced these reforms and were not expected to do so. It was only later that some superiors insisted on adopting them. The adoption was never uniform to the entire Franciscan order.
The point that I’m making is not against the EF, but I’m trying to explain that if he is true to the vision of St. Francis, his focus will be in reforming the liturgy so that it is an act of worship, be it in the Ordinary or Extraordinary form. Rebuilding the Church is not about one form of the mass over the other, but about praying the mass as it should be prayed in any form and any rite.
I don’t know how true this is, but I heard that in using the EF in his diocese, his requirement was that it be celebrated as most Franciscan superiors insist that their friar priests do, using the current liturgical calendar and allowing non-ordained men or women read the epistle. I read this on some blog. You can’t always trust what you read on blogs.
S
Sodalis
Guest
Odd, I searched for the title in google and it was the first hit. I wonder why I couldn’t find it by a date query on their site.
edant.clarin.com/diario/2007/09/17/sociedad/s-03001.htm
I didn’t see it in the search on clerin.com but the link works when I hit it off Google.
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Mike30
Guest
The 4th on the list is Mar de Plata which is located in the Diocese of Mar de Plata
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MarkThompson
Guest
Annuntio vobis that there is a diocesan Sunday TLM, in central Buenos Aires, which is on the regular, posted schedule of the parish. It is at Nuestra Señora del Carmen, Rodriguez Peña 840, C.A.B.A. Mass is at 9:00 A.M.; it is at the side altar on the left-hand side, which is ad orientem (actually the priest ends up facing due west, but the important part is that he is not facing the people).
Gaudium magnum I can’t call it, though, as only about five to eight people go. That is not a hyperbolic way of saying that “few” people go; I really mean, numerically, five to eight souls. For those who wonder why Pope Francis did not go wild opening Latin Mass Centers in Buenos Aires … it might be due to lack of demand.
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jwinch2
Guest
That is why I said LINK not LIST.
maps.google.com.ar/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=206090314166478485845.00046ba60f7b2a9ea8e81&ie=UTF8&t=m&ll=-34.234512%2C-62.929687&spn=25.318365%2C21.972656&z=4&source=embed
The fourth one down on the left side from this link, is in Buenos Aires.
J
jwinch2
Guest
Agreed, and my biggest hope is that Pope Francis continues this work so that the OF of the Mass can be everything it should be.
Very true Brother, of course. However, there are a few issues, the first being that Pope Francis is not a Franciscan, and the second being that the rules that St. Francis had for his order are not indicative of the norms for the universal Church. When the Church celebrated the EF of the Mass, they did have those things. You opened your post by saying we have to be careful. I agree with your premise. If I might suggest something for you though, it is that we have to be careful not to project St. Francis’ norms for his friars onto the entire Catholic Church.
If its true, then it is concerning. If the Mass was not be celebrated in the setting of exempt religious to warrant such a change, it should be celebrated per the norms of the Missal they are using. Again, he is not a Franciscan and neither were the parishes in his Archdiocese.
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JReducation
Guest
I realize this. You’re right, of course. I introduced this, because what I’ve heard from his Jesuit confreres is that he follows the Franciscans MO very closely.
Concerning? Yes and no. We know that it was Pope Benedict’s idea that there be an integration of the two calendars. The idea is not new or outrageous. It certainly does not change the form of the Extraordinary Form. We’re talking about celebrating this feast or that feast, which is not found in the old calendar. My community does this in our parishes as well as our houses. Priests or bishops who want a unified liturgical calendar have to figure out how to get around the difficulties.
As I said, I read this on a traditionalist blog that was less than flattering to the new pope. You have to read such blogs with a grain of salt, because so many have an ax to grind.
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Saints_Alive
Guest
I hope it’s not true. If it is it’s a blatant rejection of the conditions BXVI set forth that the 1962 Missal be used.
B
bolinstephen
Guest
But celebrating the liturgy of the Mass is the number one thing we do as Catholics. The more people who go, the more people who understand what is happening and the more people who, with the eyes of faith, “Behold the Lamb of God… [he] who takes away the sins of the world” the better.
A
_Abyssinia
Guest
Thank you
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CatholicSheila
Guest
It can’t have been Buenos Aires. I lived there for six months when I was a protestant - the Catholic Churches I saw just amazed me. Nothing like the protestant churches I was used to.In Buenos Aires or somewhere else? When I was in Chile most of the churches I saw were older buildings rather than new construction. Interesting that your friend only saw modern looking churches - guess that’s a good sign of growth even if he didn’t like the architechture!
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erlembald
Guest
As a former Protestant and later on liberal Catholic who eventually found to a true Catholic spiritual life thanks to the traditional Mass, I have my concerns, too. I must admit that I even was disappointed when I heard his name (I had favored Robert Cardinal Sarah), nevertheless I prayed for him.
But here comes the important part:
He is our Holy Father, our Pope.
We are Catholics.
Period. I for my part will definitely NOT engage in the Protestant way of thinking that messed so much up in our Church.
So unless he starts preaching clearly heretical stuff, we are bound by divine command to obey him and pray for him. And that is what we will do.
When Benedict XVI started wearing/using some of the obsolete “regalia” of a Pontiff I was first taken aback. I didn’t really like it. But as I got to know him better as a priest, theologian and Pope I started to understand his rationale, his motives and finally wholeheartedly took to it myself. So if Pope Francis goes the opposite way and renounces much of those trappings, I am sure I will come to understand it, too, if it is an authentic reflection of his teaching and his humility.
Now the really important question IMHO is: who will he elect as Cardinal Secretary of State? If it’s, e.g., Cardinal Scola, he might be able to actually cleanse the Curia.
But here comes the important part:
He is our Holy Father, our Pope.
We are Catholics.
Period. I for my part will definitely NOT engage in the Protestant way of thinking that messed so much up in our Church.
So unless he starts preaching clearly heretical stuff, we are bound by divine command to obey him and pray for him. And that is what we will do.
When Benedict XVI started wearing/using some of the obsolete “regalia” of a Pontiff I was first taken aback. I didn’t really like it. But as I got to know him better as a priest, theologian and Pope I started to understand his rationale, his motives and finally wholeheartedly took to it myself. So if Pope Francis goes the opposite way and renounces much of those trappings, I am sure I will come to understand it, too, if it is an authentic reflection of his teaching and his humility.
Now the really important question IMHO is: who will he elect as Cardinal Secretary of State? If it’s, e.g., Cardinal Scola, he might be able to actually cleanse the Curia.
G
godisgood77
Guest
I totally agree that Mass and the Eucharist are our greatest form of worship… We have a beautiful liturgy. I’m not saying to scap it. I’m saying that reforming the liturgy we have should not be in the top priorities. We should focus on bring Catholics back to the Church and bringing the Gospel to non-Catholics…and feeding the Hungary, clothing the naked and sheltering the homeless.
D
Diana_Catherine
Guest
Very good post. I agree. I think it is important that we don’t pre-judge what God has called him to do. The Holy Spirit is leading us and Pope Francis hasn’t even had a chance to get started. I think it is important not to walk in fear but trust that God is leading our church. No one knows how anyone is going to act until given the chance.
I am ever so grateful that God has given us such a humble Pope.
E
Eric_Olsen
Guest
I think there are more pressing matters right now. I love the EF form of the mass and attend and server at it every chance I get. The new Pope needs to clean house at the Vatican and remove those from the curia standing in the way of dealing with sex abuse scandal and growing secularism in the world, especially here in the US. He seems to be a humble man that can reach out to indifferent people and bring them back to the church.
As long as he does not touch the EF form of the mass, and I do not see him doing this, people will be happy. But I think the top of the agenda needs to be cleaning up the the scandal mess and re-evangelizing places that are growing secular.
As long as he does not touch the EF form of the mass, and I do not see him doing this, people will be happy. But I think the top of the agenda needs to be cleaning up the the scandal mess and re-evangelizing places that are growing secular.
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