Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

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PJD1987 said:
Exactly my point.
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Well not really exactly, because I don’t believe that all traditionalists want to “go back” 100% to the Pre-Vatican II days, but they want the true reform Vatican II was supposed to bring about, and not the foolishness and chaos that has arisen instead, with its accompanying damage to the faith.

If he is referring to that as being a “bad movement backwards”, that is what makes the language used stick out and make me uneasy a bit.
 
PJD1987 said:
Exactly my point.
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If you have gone forward in the wrong direction, often the only way to advance is to step back and start over. -Advancing solely to advance really isn’t a sound strategy in all cases. At times going back is the best way and maybe the only way to truly advance.
 
The_Scott said:
I’m going to copy/paste a comment from Father Martin Fox, a commenter on Father Z’s blog. I think it offers wonderful insight to this perceived “dilemma.”

"God bless Pope Francis.

I’m going to keep saying this, till it soaks in. The true liturgical reform and renewal, which Pope Benedict sought to bring about, will not work as a “top-down” affair. Our recent holy father chose to set it in motion from the “bottom up” as it were. That’s the best way to do it. While the example of the holy father is important, no doubt, the things that many of us are dedicated to, in the liturgy, can and will proceed. We already have a growing number of priests dedicated to this renewal. In years ahead, more bishops. Before long, cardinals.

This, I think, was Pope Benedict’s genius. This sort of renewal is harder to stop, and will have better fruit. And, if you think about it, the problematic things that happened in the liturgy also happened this way.

These comments, by the way, are not a commentary on Pope Francis’s liturgical approach. Too little data. They are a response to those who fret that a Pope Francis who isn’t pursuing the same liturgical vision will stymie what many of us look for.
God bless Pope Francis."

wdtprs.com/blog/2013/03/conclave-concludes-mass-in-the-sistine-chapel-with-cardinals/#comments
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I like this. (bolding mine)

The Pope is just getting started and there are a lot of fears and assumptions going on and we have to give him a chance and trust God. Trust that God will continue with Pope Francis what God started with Pope Benedict XVI. We have to have faith in God. Not all this judging him before he is even given a chance.
 
Mike30 said:
If you have gone forward in the wrong direction, often the only way to advance is to step back and start over. -Advancing solely to advance really isn’t a sound strategy in all cases. At times going back is the best way and maybe the only way to truly advance.
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Papa Francis sounded a lot like Pope Benedict today…

Here is Ratzinger… "The truth of the faith is linked to its historic march from Abraham to Christ, and from Christ to Parisian (his second coming). Consequently, orthodoxy is not acquiescence to a system, but participation in the walk of the faith, and in this way, participation in the ‘I’ of the Church, which subsists through time and which is the true subject of the Creed.

The fact that the truth of the faith is lived in such a walk implies its relation with the praxis and the walk of faith. Since the Christian faith is founded on the Word Incarnate, it’s historic and practical character is essentially distinct from a historicity in which man alone would be the creator of his own meaning."

Movement…the living faith. I believe Francis will not break with the groundwork laid by Papa Benedict.
 
Can someone please help me out. I’m just trying to discern. I can’t see how a Priest much less a Cardinal who loves the Eucharist and Mary could possibly celebrate a Mass in this fashion (see link/video), and allow such a circus at a Holy Mass. No one even bended their knee for the Real Presence. So much irreverance here --it’s just sickening. I’m sincerely asking someone to help me understand…

Also, is it wrong to try and discern and have these questions, especially at this evil time in history?

Many have seen this already but I don’t know that it has really been discussed.

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3RJK0yULkCY#!

😦 😊 🤷
 
DeusMisereatur said:
Can someone please help me out. I’m just trying to discern. I can’t see how a Priest much less a Cardinal who loves the Eucharist and Mary could possibly celebrate a Mass in this fashion (see link/video), and allow such a circus at a Holy Mass. No one even bended their knee for the Real Presence. So much irreverance here --it’s just sickening. I’m sincerely asking someone to help me understand…

Also, is it wrong to try and discern and have these questions, especially at this evil time in history?

Many have seen this already but I don’t know that it has really been discussed.

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3RJK0yULkCY#!

😦 😊 🤷
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Well this wouldn’t be my cup of tea, but no one could deny the joy present in that celebration.
 
DeusMisereatur said:
Also, is it wrong to try and discern and have these questions, especially at this evil time in history?
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No, but it is wrong to lose faith in the Church. Generally speaking, I do not think this sort of liturgical experimentation is wise. When considering this particular Mass, though, it is proper (and charitable to Francis) to keep in mind that it was an extraordinary celebration specifically aimed at children and that ‘Pentecostal Protestantism’ is gaining much ground in South America at the expense of Catholicism.

Does anyone have a translation of the homily?
 
DeusMisereatur said:
Can someone please help me out. I’m just trying to discern. I can’t see how a Priest much less a Cardinal who loves the Eucharist and Mary could possibly celebrate a Mass in this fashion (see link/video), and allow such a circus at a Holy Mass. No one even bended their knee for the Real Presence. So much irreverance here --it’s just sickening. I’m sincerely asking someone to help me understand…

Also, is it wrong to try and discern and have these questions, especially at this evil time in history?

Many have seen this already but I don’t know that it has really been discussed.

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3RJK0yULkCY#!

😦 😊 🤷
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I doubt there is ever a Bishop these days who has not found himself celebrating a mass with things going on he doesn’t like. Bishop’s don’t often plan these things, they show up on schedule to say mass, after others have done the planning.
 
godisgood77 said:
Papa Francis sounded a lot like Pope Benedict today…

Here is Ratzinger… "The truth of the faith is linked to its historic march from Abraham to Christ, and from Christ to Parisian (his second coming). Consequently, orthodoxy is not acquiescence to a system, but participation in the walk of the faith, and in this way, participation in the ‘I’ of the Church, which subsists through time and which is the true subject of the Creed.

The fact that the truth of the faith is lived in such a walk implies its relation with the praxis and the walk of faith. Since the Christian faith is founded on the Word Incarnate, it’s historic and practical character is essentially distinct from a historicity in which man alone would be the creator of his own meaning."

Movement…the living faith. I believe Francis will not break with the groundwork laid by Papa Benedict.
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I can only say that all the Jesuit priests I know, none were not pulling for Benedict to be Pope. I feel there will be many disappointed Catholic in the months to come, but I pray they can keep an open mind because of all the priest I have known, the Jesuit truly try to be like Christ like in every since of the word, as much as they can be in the world today. Many live in very small dorm like rooms, collecting few personal items, and striving to help those in need while teaching our faith and their mission to young people all over the world, avoiding honor or glory.
 
catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2075/Fr_Fessio_on_Pope_Francis_Im_overjoyed.aspx#.UUIyLtb_mSo
Fr. Joseph Fessio, SJ – founder of Ignatius Press – had this to say about the election of his fellow Jesuit, Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, as the new pope:
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I’m overjoyed. He is a great Jesuit, a traditional one. He’s “progressive” in the sense that he loves the poor, and—more importantly—lives a life of simplicity. But he is completely faithful to the Church’s teaching. So he really is a “pontifex maximus”, which is Latin for “the greatest bridge builder”. He bridges the Old World and the New, doctrinal orthodoxy and service to the poor. And what a great new name for a Pope, “Francis”. Francis of Assisi, the great lover of creation and the poor, who was told by Our Lord to “rebuild my Church”. Francis Xavier, fellow Jesuit and the greatest missionary of the Church. Francis Borgia, another fellow Jesuit, a saint who was a vigorous General of the Jesuits.
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Its worth noting that Fr. Fessio is the co-founder of Adoremus Society for the Renewal of the Sacred Liturgy. adoremus.org/faq.htm
 
einna said:
I can only say that all the Jesuit priests I know, none were not pulling for Benedict to be Pope. I feel there will be many disappointed Catholic in the months to come, but I pray they can keep an open mind because of all the priest I have known, the Jesuit truly try to be like Christ like in every since of the word, as much as they can be in the world today. Many live in very small dorm like rooms, collecting few personal items, and striving to help those in need while teaching our faith and their mission to young people all over the world, avoiding honor or glory.
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Did you mean “none were not” or “none were?”

You keep describing the Jesuits as if they are so unusual as Orders go. They are not, actually. What distinguishes the Jesuits, among other intellectual/teaching orders is that they have a particular commitment to (international) mission. One of the most moving examples of that is the film of that name, “The Mission,” which I recommend to all. The script is loosely biographical and has some historical basis. The notion of mission as evangelization informs the activity and even coursework (for example, in undergraduate and graduate programs) in Jesuit institutions. Students (including lay students) are likely to go abroad as part of coursework or as simply a service project. The Jesuits are definitely into service, but one has to be very careful here. They are certainly not more into service than, for example, the Franciscans, whose “middle name” is service. 😉

Orders do generally live in community. (Unlike many “religious communities,” some of whom do not.) And anyone who takes a vow of poverty does tend to live in the simple way you’re acquainted with, in Jesuits.

Our new Pope has taken it a step further than many of his rank (as Cardinal, previousy as archbishop, and now as Pope) in resisting many of the “trappings” of privilege & rank beyond that of the priesthood. I think that’s terrific witness, by the way.
 
godisgood77 said:
Papa Francis sounded a lot like Pope Benedict today…

Here is Ratzinger… "The truth of the faith is linked to its historic march from Abraham to Christ, and from Christ to Parisian (his second coming). Consequently, orthodoxy is not acquiescence to a system, but participation in the walk of the faith, and in this way, participation in the ‘I’ of the Church, which subsists through time and which is the true subject of the Creed.

The fact that the truth of the faith is lived in such a walk implies its relation with the praxis and the walk of faith. Since the Christian faith is founded on the Word Incarnate, it’s historic and practical character is essentially distinct from a historicity in which man alone would be the creator of his own meaning."

Movement…the living faith. I believe Francis will not break with the groundwork laid by Papa Benedict.
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That would depend, I suppose, entirely on whether or not the Holy Father thinks that Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI was headed firmly in the right direction. Many for example felt that Pope Benedict placed an undue emphasis on the external signs associated with the Papacy. We have already seen that the Holy Father doesn’t feel external signs are of as much importance than did Pope Benedict which may or may not be telling of even greater issues.

So I would be hesitant to state unequivically in which direction I think the Holy Father will go.

I would venture to say though that I am positive it will be different in many respects.
 
Mike30 said:
That would depend, I suppose, entirely on whether or not the Holy Father thinks that Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI was headed firmly in the right direction. Many for example felt that Pope Benedict placed an undue emphasis on the external signs associated with the Papacy. We have already seen that the Holy Father doesn’t feel external signs are of as much importance than did Pope Benedict which may or may not be telling of even greater issues.

So I would be hesitant to state unequivically in which direction I think the Holy Father will go.

I would venture to say though that I am positive it will be different in many respects.
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I think it will be different, but the same 🙂

By looking a Papa Francis’ track record, you will see that he puts a lot of emphasis on external signs. His signs are more service oriented and less liturgical; simpler with less pomp and pageantry. I think that theologically we will find him to be similar to Benedict, but different in practice. I love Benedict and I think I’m going to love Francis…
 
jwinch2 said:
the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/03/how-summorum-pontificum-was-blocked-and.html

I do not encourage you to read the comments after the second link as they are pretty harsh at times. However, and I am not typically a fan, Rorate Caeli seems to have done their homework this time, or at least as much as can be done in 24 hours.
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Well, I am glad at least to see that the information I culled from hours on the internet, phone calls to associates and friends in Argentina and reading from several journels, blogs and newspaper and magazine articles were not off by much. In fact they were pretty close to being 100% accurate.

I am not particularly happy that they were accurate. I had actually hoped that some of them were wrong, but the truth has a way of seeping out even when there is a chorus to silence it.

I just hope that things will be better now.
 
Mike30 said:
Well, I am glad at least to see that the information I culled from hours on the internet, phone calls to associates and friends in Argentina and reading from several journels, blogs and newspaper and magazine articles were not off by much. In fact they were pretty close to being 100% accurate.
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I’m not. I was very much hoping you were wrong entirely.
 
Mike30 said:
There is no FSSP presence in Argentina at all and there appear to be no Extraordinary Form Masses in Argentina except for SSPX Chapels, of which there are quite a few, including one in the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires. The Holy Father has apparently never celebrated one, at least I could find no record of it, and reportedly does not allow it to be celebrated in his Diocese… After perusing the Buenos Aires Archdiocesan website, I could find no mention of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass being celebrated anywhere by anyone. While those facts are not really surprisingr, they are somewhat disheartening, especially after the Indult by Blessed Pope John Paul II and the generous application allowed by Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI.

That being said, Pope Francis is my Pope and I do support him.

Habemus Papum.
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If it’s true he has never celebrated one prior to His papacy and did not allow it to be celebrated in his diocese, that may be a good sign for those Catholics who prefer the option of an all vernacular Mass. I know Latin has been increasingly making a comeback in parts of even the OF. I’ve attended such Masses where Latin was included and have seen such Masses on EWTN. Perhaps the new Holy Father will keep Benedict’s changes in place but not really pursue it or place the same emphasis on Latin to the degree in which Benedict did. As with all Popes, time will tell.
 
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