Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

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jwinch2 said:
I’m not. I was very much hoping you were wrong entirely.
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I think you misunderstood. While I am glad that my research turned up correct results, I too am very sad about it and wish it could have and had been different. I wish that what I found had not been true.

But it is always better, at least I think, to know the truth early. If you believe something that turns how not to be true it can be devastating down the road. At least now, we can be happy if things turn out good and who knows? They might.

We have to trust and have faith.
 
DeusMisereatur said:
Can someone please help me out. I’m just trying to discern. I can’t see how a Priest much less a Cardinal who loves the Eucharist and Mary could possibly celebrate a Mass in this fashion (see link/video), and allow such a circus at a Holy Mass. No one even bended their knee for the Real Presence. So much irreverance here --it’s just sickening. I’m sincerely asking someone to help me understand…

Also, is it wrong to try and discern and have these questions, especially at this evil time in history?

Many have seen this already but I don’t know that it has really been discussed.

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3RJK0yULkCY#!

😦 😊 🤷
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Part of the issue, which you may not be seeing, is this is a Mass for Children. In addition, it is a Mass being celebrated in another culture, in which expressions may be culturally different from what you expect them tyo be. that does not make them evil, nor does it make them irreverant.
 
I doubt he will do anything to oppose it. The EF Mass will only come to the forefront if it grows from the ground up. I can’t see any Pope discarding the OF and moving to the EF or any type of hybrid Mass unless the EF grows in more and more in popularity. This may happen over some years, but at the present I don’t see much coming from the top.
 
Mike30 said:
I think you misunderstood. While I am glad that my research turned up correct results, I too am very sad about it and wish it could have and had been different. I wish that what I found had not been true.
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I know that is what you meant, I saw that part in the rest of your earlier post. I’m just frustrated and concerned for the future of the Church right now. My apologies.
 
jwinch2 said:
I know that is what you meant, I saw that part in the rest of your earlier post. I’m just frustrated and concerned for the future of the Church right now. My apologies.
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I am concerned also my friend. Hopeful, but concerned.
 
It might bode well if we all step back and take a deep breath, and maybe reflect on a bit of history.

When Benedict 16 took office, there was an outpouring of anticipatory joy, with comments about the possibility that he would keelhaul theologians, and jerk bishops up by the scruff of their neck, all in anticipation of his supposed chracteristic of being the pit bull of the Church.

His first encyclical was about love…

And this was no contradiction of who he actually was, the pit bull moniker having been hung on him simply because he hewed to the Church’s position on any number of issues.

Pope Francis has a history of emulting St. Francis of Assisi, and suggesting (if I can use such a mild word) that others in authority in the Church might consider doing likewise, rather than being caught up in the trappings of position and power. Not that anyone would suggest that clericalism is still alive and well in the Church.

The church has a myriad of issues facing it, many of which a lot of Catholics are totally unaware of. All the fear expressed herein this thread concerning the EF fails to acknowledge that primarily because it may be our pet project/peeve/concern. The Pope faces a world that is torn in many directions. It might be wise to acknowledge that there have been more people killed for their faith in the last 100 years than in the entire history of the Church before that. It might be helpful to contemplate that the Church has a far bigger battle to fight than liturgical issues, when western society seems hell bent for election to not only accept gay rights, but to demand the Church do likewise (see, for example, what has been occuring throughout Canada under the guise of rights); the same can be said for contraception and abortion - just in case anyone cares to pay attention to US politics at hand.

We can spin ourselves silly in a dervish whirl of fear and angst, or we can pray mightily that the Holy Spirit guide this Pope to do what is needed the most for the Church, and while we are at it, not tell the Holy Spirit what that agenda must look like.
 
CMatt25 said:
If it’s true he has never celebrated one prior to His papacy and did not allow it to be celebrated in his diocese, that may be a good sign for those Catholics who prefer the option of an all vernacular Mass.
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That means he’s the first Pope who (probably) has not celebrated the ancient form himself. And FWIW, he’s also the first recent Pope who was not present at Vatican II. How that will form (or not form) his papal vision and direction remains to be seen. CAF may be all Spanish a few years from now. 🙂
 
Anthony86 said:
No, but it is wrong to lose faith in the Church. Generally speaking, I do not think this sort of liturgical experimentation is wise. When considering this particular Mass, though, it is proper (and charitable to Francis) to keep in mind that it was an extraordinary celebration specifically aimed at children and that ‘Pentecostal Protestantism’ is gaining much ground in South America at the expense of Catholicism.
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(Bold mine). I believe you might of just hit the nail right on the head.
 
otjm said:
The church has a myriad of issues facing it, many of which a lot of Catholics are totally unaware of. All the fear expressed herein this thread concerning the EF fails to acknowledge that primarily because it may be our pet project/peeve/concern. The Pope faces a world that is torn in many directions. It might be wise to acknowledge that there have been more people killed for their faith in the last 100 years than in the entire history of the Church before that. It might be helpful to contemplate that the Church has a far bigger battle to fight than liturgical issues, when western society seems hell bent for election to not only accept gay rights, but to demand the Church do likewise (see, for example, what has been occuring throughout Canada under the guise of rights); the same can be said for contraception and abortion - just in case anyone cares to pay attention to US politics at hand.
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And yet, as has already been noticed, it is the Liturgy of the Mass where we gain the spiritual graces and strength to combat those issues. It is the beauty of Christ, encountered in the Eucharist which transforms us so that we can transform the culture around us. As I quoted above, from Archbishop Sample on this exact issue:
The liturgy both teaches us and expresses what we believe. If we do not get the sacred liturgy right, I fear that we will just be spinning our wheels rather than getting the New Evangelization going in the right direction. If we are transformed by the sacred liturgy, then we, as believers, can help transform the culture.

In addition, Pope Benedict has spoken on this quite beautifully when he said:
the true celebration of the sacred liturgy is at the center of any renewal of the Church whatever.

This goes back to Blessed John Paul II who stated:
it is in the Liturgy that the Church manifests and communicates to the faithful the work of salvation, accomplished once and for all by Christ.

These issues you correctly mentioned above, and the reverent celebration of the Mass, are not separate issues. Many seem content to keep trying to present them as if they are. However, the reality is that they are intrinsically linked with one another, and cannot be separated.
 
I can remember when Benedict 16 was known as a “liberal” in traditional circles. But the Holy Ghost really influenced him in his later years. Pope Francis has been at the helm for 24 hours; not much time to see just how he will govern the church. Time will be the judge on this pontificate. God knows full well the outcome. It is our place to be faithful Catholics.
 
corsair said:
I can remember when Benedict 16 was known as a “liberal” in traditional circles. But the Holy Ghost really influenced him in his later years.
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Good point. He even wore a suit to the council, if that means anything.
 
corsair said:
I can remember when Benedict 16 was known as a “liberal” in traditional circles. But the Holy Ghost really influenced him in his later years. Pope Francis has been at the helm for 24 hours; not much time to see just how he will govern the church. Time will be the judge on this pontificate. God knows full well the outcome. It is our place to be faithful Catholics.
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I really don’t think Benedict changed nor do I think he needed to…He’s a progressive…I also believe that Holy Ghost was with this man for many, many years… not just in his later years. here are few quotes on how he viewed himself…

In an interview in 1985…

*"‘Was it a sin of youth, Your Emminence, this engagement with Concilium?’ I asked him, joshing.

“‘Absolutely not,’ he answered. ‘I did not change; they changed.’”

(Rapporto sulla Fede - Vittorio Messori a coloquio con Joseph Ratzinger, Rome:Paoline, 1985, p. 14).*

Again in 1990…
*Cardinal Ratzinger – I do not see a real, profound difference between my work at Vatican Council II and my present day work. While preparing this course for Bishops, I went to review a course of ecclesiology that I taught for the first time in 1956. Naturally, I found elements that needed to be updated. But as for the fundamental vision, I found a profound similarity. What I proposed to the Bishops in Rio de Janeiro (in this trip) was the same fundamental vision that I set out (then).

(Interview with Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger by Walter Falceta, Jr, ‘Acao pastoral requer espiritualidade’ in O Estado de S. Paulo, July 29, 1990)
*

von Balthasar on Ratzinger…
*… Ratzinger has always been for an advanced position and openness.

I have known him for a long time, since he was a professor, and I can assure you that he did not change.

Everyone says the opposite, that there are two Ratzingers: one before he came to Rome, and a different one later.

To the contrary, he has always remained the same!

(Hans Urs von Balthasar, “Viaggio nel Postconcilio”, interview with Angelo Scola, 30 Giorni, November 1985, p. 16.*
 
ProVobis said:
CAF may be all Spanish a few years from now.
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Hyperbole, much?

Just an anecdotal response from a poster, but does reflect what I have read elsewhere, in reports about comparative religious growth/recession:
jwinch2 said:
In reality, this is not even all that accurate. If they had been to South America in recent years, they would know that the Church is on the run there. I spent a few weeks in Brazil not that long ago. Everywhere I went there were new protestant Churches springing up, mostly Assembly of God, but some others as well. Masses were less than half full, with the exception of a shrine that we visited. The number of Catholics is dropping there faster than it is the rest of the world. Those that actually do stay Christians are becoming Protestant at an alarming rate, while many are just becoming secularized. Those Catholics that are staying Catholic dissent from Church teachings in a number of predictable areas. I am not entirely sure what the percentage of faithful orthodox Catholics would be in South America, or even in Brazil specifically, but it is very low indeed, probably about the same as anywhere else.

In short, anyone who think that South America is some sort of bastion of Catholicism is sadly and highly mistaken. I wish it were true, but it isn’t.
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jwinch2 said:
I know that is what you meant, I saw that part in the rest of your earlier post. I’m just frustrated and concerned for the future of the Church right now. My apologies.
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Bold mine.

I honestly do not know why you would be. We just had a Pope invoke the Blessed Virgin’s name 3 times in prayer in public knowing full well that tens of millions - Catholics and non-Catholics - were watching and quoting him, whilst explicitly granting a plenary indulgence. We have zero reason so far to question this man’s orthodoxy or Catholicity. If he’s not afraid to pray in public regardless of the secular world and media’s aversion to it, if he’s not afraid even to pray to Mary in public, and if he’s not afraid to grant a plenary indulgence on international television, then there is frankly no real reason to suspect the Pope would be afraid to defend or preach the Church’s doctrine in all truth and with all fidelity: i.e., to faithfully discharge his duty.

The fact that most even secular media commentators I heard were more impressed with his humility and talking about that, rather than distracting the audience with the sensational by focusing on the controversial nature of the Church’s beliefs and teachings with regard to the Blessed Virgin Mary or indulgences, gives me every reason for hope and confidence in Francis’ Petrine Ministry.
 
einna said:
I can only say that all the Jesuit priests I know, none were not pulling for Benedict to be Pope. I feel there will be many disappointed Catholic in the months to come, but I pray they can keep an open mind because of all the priest I have known, the Jesuit truly try to be like Christ like in every since of the word, as much as they can be in the world today. Many live in very small dorm like rooms, collecting few personal items, and striving to help those in need while teaching our faith and their mission to young people all over the world, avoiding honor or glory.
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I’m confused by the double negative here as well. Could you clarify?
 
jwinch2 said:
And yet, as has already been noticed, it is the Liturgy of the Mass where we gain the spiritual graces and strength to combat those issues. It is the beauty of Christ, encountered in the Eucharist which transforms us so that we can transform the culture around us. As I quoted above, from Archbishop Sample on this exact issue:
The liturgy both teaches us and expresses what we believe. If we do not get the sacred liturgy right, I fear that we will just be spinning our wheels rather than getting the New Evangelization going in the right direction. If we are transformed by the sacred liturgy, then we, as believers, can help transform the culture.

In addition, Pope Benedict has spoken on this quite beautifully when he said:
the true celebration of the sacred liturgy is at the center of any renewal of the Church whatever.

This goes back to Blessed John Paul II who stated:
it is in the Liturgy that the Church manifests and communicates to the faithful the work of salvation, accomplished once and for all by Christ.

These issues you correctly mentioned above, and the reverent celebration of the Mass, are not separate issues. Many seem content to keep trying to present them as if they are. However, the reality is that they are intrinsically linked with one another, and cannot be separated.
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Okay, but what are our criteria for discerning what constitutes our being “transformed by the sacred liturgy”? That sounds to me a lot like the work and power of the Holy Spirit. I venture one way for discerning whether or not the sacred liturgy is facilitating this important transformation is to discern the presence of the Holy Spirit’s fruits (see, for example, Gal 5.22-23 for a list). Without these fruits growing on the Church’s branches we are solemnly warned by our Lord that those branches are in danger of being cut-off or falling away even to be “burned over”. Therefore I think it is important that we judge the sacred litrugy at least in part - but this part being a necessary critera on the lift - by the presence of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

(see: catholicfirst.com/thefaith/catechism/Catechism06.html )
 
Elizabeth502 said:
Just an anecdotal response from a poster, but does reflect what I have read elsewhere, in reports about comparative religious growth/recession:
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I’d be curious to see the actual numbers and percentages, to see how they compare to the U.S. Catholic decline in church attendance. And compare that to the U.S. immigration Mass attendance.
 
ProVobis said:
I’d be curious to see the actual numbers, to see how they compare to the U.S. Catholic decline in church attendance. And compare that to the U.S. immigration Mass attendance.
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I second your curiosity, as to both. 🙂

I have seen some numbers, but I believe they are estimates.
 
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