Pope Francis and the Latin Mass

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otjm said:
It might bode well if we all step back and take a deep breath, and maybe reflect on a bit of history.

When Benedict 16 took office, there was an outpouring of anticipatory joy, with comments about the possibility that he would keelhaul theologians, and jerk bishops up by the scruff of their neck, all in anticipation of his supposed chracteristic of being the pit bull of the Church.

His first encyclical was about love…

And this was no contradiction of who he actually was, the pit bull moniker having been hung on him simply because he hewed to the Church’s position on any number of issues.

Pope Francis has a history of emulting St. Francis of Assisi, and suggesting (if I can use such a mild word) that others in authority in the Church might consider doing likewise, rather than being caught up in the trappings of position and power. Not that anyone would suggest that clericalism is still alive and well in the Church.

The church has a myriad of issues facing it, many of which a lot of Catholics are totally unaware of. All the fear expressed herein this thread concerning the EF fails to acknowledge that primarily because it may be our pet project/peeve/concern. The Pope faces a world that is torn in many directions. It might be wise to acknowledge that there have been more people killed for their faith in the last 100 years than in the entire history of the Church before that. It might be helpful to contemplate that the Church has a far bigger battle to fight than liturgical issues, when western society seems hell bent for election to not only accept gay rights, but to demand the Church do likewise (see, for example, what has been occuring throughout Canada under the guise of rights); the same can be said for contraception and abortion - just in case anyone cares to pay attention to US politics at hand.

We can spin ourselves silly in a dervish whirl of fear and angst, or we can pray mightily that the Holy Spirit guide this Pope to do what is needed the most for the Church, and while we are at it, not tell the Holy Spirit what that agenda must look like.
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We must ask ourselves, when very few Catholics today even fully practice much less accept the Doctrines and Dogmas of their Catholic faith, what the root cause of all of these problems might be.

The Holy Mass and Eucharist is the very heart of our Faith, and with the graces we receive therein we are to go forth and be the Salt of the Earth. Now since the reforms of Vatican II, and the apostasy that has resulted, can we be surprised at the state of affairs in the world?

It certainly is the watering down of the Mass and of the teaching and proclamation of our faith by those appointed to lead that has resulted in mass confusion over morality.

Very grave warnings have been given at Fatima, and the very prayers given to the children point to the lack of love and respect given to God in these times.

If we can’t love, adore, respect and give reverence to Our Lord in the Mass, then there is a real problem.

I, for one, believe there are few excuses, and that He deserves far better.
 
1AugustSon7 said:
Bold mine.

I honestly do not know why you would be. We just had a Pope invoke the Blessed Virgin’s name 3 times in prayer in public knowing full well that tens of millions - Catholics and non-Catholics - were watching and quoting him, whilst explicitly granting a plenary indulgence. We have zero reason so far to question this man’s orthodoxy or Catholicity. If he’s not afraid to pray in public regardless of the secular world and media’s aversion to it, if he’s not afraid even to pray to Mary in public, and if he’s not afraid to grant a plenary indulgence on international television, then there is frankly no real reason to suspect the Pope would be afraid to defend or preach the Church’s doctrine in all truth and with all fidelity: i.e., to faithfully discharge his duty.

The fact that most even secular media commentators I heard were more impressed with his humility and talking about that, rather than distracting the audience with the sensational by focusing on the controversial nature of the Church’s beliefs and teachings with regard to the Blessed Virgin Mary or indulgences, gives me every reason for hope and confidence in Francis’ Petrine Ministry.
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Excellent post.
 
1AugustSon7 said:
Okay, but what are our criteria for discerning what constitutes our being “transformed by the sacred liturgy”? That sounds to me a lot like the work and power of the Holy Spirit. I venture one way for discerning whether or not the sacred liturgy is facilitating this important transformation is to discern the presence of the Holy Spirit’s fruits (see, for example, Gal 5.22-23 for a list). Without these fruits growing on the Church’s branches we are solemnly warned by our Lord that those branches are in danger of being cut-off or falling away even to be “burned over”. Therefore I think it is important that we judge the sacred litrugy at least in part - but this part being a necessary critera on the lift - by the presence of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

(see: catholicfirst.com/thefaith/catechism/Catechism06.html )
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I agree. And, I would submit that Pope Benedict, Pope John Paul II, etc. have examined the fruits which have stemmed from the liturgy in the last 5 decades. Both Blessed John Paul II and Benedict XVI were quite candid that the intended reforms of the liturgy were not implemented properly. For this reason, they desired a reform of the reform.

Please understand, I am not one who is personally attached to the EF of the Mass, though I do wish everyone who desires it to have access to it. All I am after, is a Mass celebrated with reverence and beauty according to the preferences of the Church. This means the propers, chant, some Latin, etc. That’s all. I’m not asking for the EF of the Mass to become the norm, and frankly, I don’t think anyone else is either, even those who are deeply nurtured by the EF. I simply want Mass to be celebrated according to the mind of the Church and in keeping with her Sacred Tradition.

Many will try to tell you this is simply personal preference on my part and that, since the Church allows options, one is just as good as another. This is false. The truth is that the Church herself has preferences which she lists in order. Almost always, the least preferred option is what you see. I would like to see far more regular usage of the most preferred option, according to the Church.
 
otjm said:
Part of the issue, which you may not be seeing, is this is a Mass for Children. In addition, it is a Mass being celebrated in another culture, in which expressions may be culturally different from what you expect them tyo be. that does not make them evil, nor does it make them irreverant.
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Yes, it is veery irreverent. I am a latin american. This kind of experimentation with the divine liturgy made me leave the catholic church 30 years ago as a teen in Brazil. Was just to silly for a smart teen.Children over the centuries never needed a special kind of mass, not in europe, not in the Us, not in latin america. This is just plain stupid. no wonder the catholic church is dying in latin america.
As a latin american it really makes my blood boil when people think that in South America people are so genetically diferent somehow that we can not follow a regular reverent Catholic Mass. That this kind of mess (mass) is part of our culture.That the mass has to be inculturated somehow, for us to be able to follow. Understand that we south americans have been able to follow the NORMAL CATHOLIC MASS for 500 years.
This clown masses have nothing to do with our culture but with the abuses of vatican II. And the idea was actually imported from America! You had those weird liturgies in the past here in America too, remember? But most of the dioceses in the US got over it. The latin american church is stuck in the 70s . Please, we need help, not more people thinking this kind of liturgy is just right for people of our ethnicity.
 
DeusMisereatur said:
Can someone please help me out. I’m just trying to discern. I can’t see how a Priest much less a Cardinal who loves the Eucharist and Mary could possibly celebrate a Mass in this fashion (see link/video), and allow such a circus at a Holy Mass. No one even bended their knee for the Real Presence. So much irreverance here --it’s just sickening. I’m sincerely asking someone to help me understand…

Also, is it wrong to try and discern and have these questions, especially at this evil time in history?

Many have seen this already but I don’t know that it has really been discussed.

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3RJK0yULkCY#!

😦 😊 🤷
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As a South American unfortunately all I have to say is: Welcome to the church of latin america! Stronghold of liberation teology and vatican II liturgical abuses…
My only hope now is that at least one good thing might come out of this papacy: people around the world will finally have contact and see in how bad of a shape the church in latin america is, and maybe try to help us get out of the 70s somehow… Please pray for us, the forgotten hermanos…
And by the way, you have not seen anything…just wait for the world youth day in Rio…
 
jwinch2 said:
I’m just frustrated and concerned for the future of the Church right now. My apologies.
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May I ask why? Is there any reason to believe that our new pope would reverse any of the things that Pope Benedict E. did…?
 
Arrependida said:
As a South American unfortunately all I have to say is: Welcome to the church of latin america! Stronghold of liberation teology and vatican II liturgical abuses…
My only hope now is that at least one good thing might come out of this papacy
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…this is getting out of control. :cool:
 
Arrependida said:
That the mass has to be inculturated somehow, for us to be able to follow. Understand that we south americans have been able to follow the NORMAL CATHOLIC MASS for 500 years.
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Tough to lose 500 years of tradition.

In the U.S. Catholicism really didn’t develop until the mid-19th century. Same as the U.K. I think. (It had been completely squelched by Henry VIII before that.)
 
Elizabeth502 said:
I second your curiosity, as to both. 🙂

I have seen some numbers, but I believe they are estimates.
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I found these articles. Please feel free to add to them:

(Sort of stunning when you come across stuff like: “In Colombia, only two out of every three people profess themselves Catholics today, when almost the entire population was Catholic in the 1950s.”)

ipsnews.net/2004/10/religion-latin-america-catholic-church-losing-followers-in-droves/

guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9885696

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0503707.htm
 
Hasire said:
This is a dark time for Traditionalist Catholics 😦
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Hmmm, never heard of the Traditionalist Catholics. When did they separate?

Sorry to be flippant, but in my mind there is is just one church. I hate when people emphasize divisions like this. If you like the EF it’s wonderul, but you are no better than other Catholics, just as I don’t think myself superior because I like a reverent OF mass. Also how do you know it is a dark time? I doubt Francis will do anything to get rid of the EF. Oh well, maybe he is an antipope and i’m just part of the church apostate:shrug:
 
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