Pope Francis approves correction of words of the Lords Prayer and Gloria in Italian Missal

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lilypadrees said:
I prefer the Our Father and the Gloria the way they’ve always been. Why tamper with perfection?
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The Lord’s Prayer would only be perfect in the language first received from Jesus. At each incremental translation from one language to the other it will have lost its perfection. At least in my mother tongue, French, it’s not as it’s always been. It’s been changed several times, and this is the second change since the 1960s.
 
If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it. The Church has far more pressing concerns than trying to reinvent the wheel.
 
Why now with this? How come Pope Paul VI or any of his successors didn’t think it was a wise thing to do?
 
Odilon said:
Why now with this? How come Pope Paul VI or any of his successors didn’t think it was a wise thing to do?
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Well as I mentioned, the Lord’s Prayer in French was modified once before, in the mid-60s, when “ne nous laisse pas succomber à la tentation” (do not let us succumb to temptation) was changed to “ne nous soumets pas à la tentation” (do not submit us to temptation), and now back to something closer to the earlier version “ne nous laisse pas entrer en tentation” (do not let us enter into temptation).

The first change was done… under the reign of Paul VI. So someone under his authority signed off on it.

Bottom line: the prayer has changed before, it may change again in the future, and popes have the authority to make the change. An authority they have exercised in the past as the French changes make clear.
 
I agree, the cost alone for these changes are another part that should be thought about. The way the Catholic Church is hurting these days with lack of priests, lower enrollment, and sexual misconduct , this should not be in the forefront of the church,(perhaps to take the eye off the other.) I hate to see such a beautiful prayer change when it’s been this way for sooo long. I’m an old dog and don’t like new tricks!! Since I have no say, I suppose I will adjust, reluctantly.
 
I wonder what led him to this new revelation. It smacks of change for the sake of change. It’s stuff like this at a time when the Church is in financial, sexual, and staffing crisis mode that makes it harder and hard for me to say I’m Catholic. Reminds me more of watching politicians with their red herrings to draw people’s attention away, than watching leaders seriously interested in turning things around. Also reminds me of a failing entity trying to divert attention from its death throws.

So nice to see him focus on the “important” things. Could just go back to Greek/Latin and stop worrying about the translation “difficulties.”

Going to cost something to reprint stuff in his vision. Already have parishes with serious financial difficulties, and then we get this rearrangement of the deck chairs on the Titanic thing… I was aghast at the debt load of a mid-sized (for out here) parish in the local diocese’s hometown… and they are in a building where parts of the concrete are literally falling apart.

Also, I can imagine the glee with which the plaintiff’s attorneys in those civil cases involving sex abuse took this news. Great argument for punitive damages… see ladies and gentlemen, the Church promised to fix the matter. Instead of fixing it… their supreme leader decided to change a few words in a two-thousand-year-old prayer. Instead of defrocking those priests/bishops/cardinals involved… their supreme leader decided to change a few words in that prayer. They aren’t interested in fixing it, if they were they’d be handling it instead of a few words in a prayer understood for centuries. You can’t trust them to fix it on their own, that’s why you need to award the Plaintiff so that the message finally gets across.
 
Odilon said:
Why now with this? How come Pope Paul VI or any of his successors didn’t think it was a wise thing to do?
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Well, actually, one of his successors DID think it’s a wise thing to do.
 
Seeksadvice said:
Also, I can imagine the glee with which the plaintiff’s attorneys in those civil cases involving sex abuse took this news. Great argument for punitive damages… see ladies and gentlemen, the Church promised to fix the matter. Instead of fixing it… their supreme leader decided to change a few words in a two-thousand-year-old prayer. Instead of defrocking those priests/bishops/cardinals involved… their supreme leader decided to change a few words in that prayer. They aren’t interested in fixing it, if they were they’d be handling it instead of a few words in a prayer understood for centuries. You can’t trust them to fix it on their own, that’s why you need to award the Plaintiff so that the message finally gets across.
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That would be a stupid argument to try in court, since the one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
 
Seeksadvice said:
It smacks of change for the sake of change.
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Then was the change to the French version, under Paul VI circa 1966, “change for the sake of change”? That change brought us in line with the rest of the world “do not lead us into temptation”. The current change goes back more or less with some nuance to what it was in 1966 because, it turns out, 1966 was better theology after all (at lest in French).

Somehow I managed to adapt as a kid (I was 8 years old in 1966), and I have managed to adapt as an adult (I turn 61 next week).

Translation is an imperfect and often highly subjective science. I should know, that has been my post-retirement career. A tweak here, a nudge there, and still some phrases are difficult to render in other languages.

And let’s not blame this on a post-Vatican II “vernacular” grudge. People have prayed the Lord’s Prayer in the vernacular since long before the Council.
 
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ProVobis said:
Not at Mass because only the priest prayed it.
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Umm…well yes at Mass, as many would be silently praying the Rosary, with the Lord’s Prayer in the vernacular as they learned it, while the priest silently offered Mass 😉
 
Or reading along with it in the missal?
What’s up with people thinking in Latin mass noone knows what is going on? If anything since I started going and reading along with mass I understand it more than I ever did in the vernacular.
 
I have my mother’s Missal from 1958. It does not have a word-for-word translation of the Mass in it. It translates some of it but not all. It is also filled with lots of other payers and devotions.

I was told, by an older priest, that most of the missals lay people had were the same way, because much if what was said was inaudible anyway, so there was no reason for them to “know”, as it wasn’t their “job” to know.

Just another reason to be grateful that the Church allowed the vernacular.
 
She must have had a cheap missal.
The ones sold by Angelus and Baronius etc have everything.
 
CilladeRoma said:
I have my mother’s Missal from 1958. It does not have a word-for-word translation of the Mass in it. It translates some of it but not all. It is also filled with lots of other payers and devotions.

I was told, by an older priest, that most of the missals lay people had were the same way, because much if what was said was inaudible anyway, so there was no reason for them to “know”, as it wasn’t their “job” to know.

Just another reason to be grateful that the Church allowed the vernacular.
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I know that the “big” missal that the adults had when I was a kid had all the Mass in it, Latin on one side, French or English on the other. OTOH, the pearly white covered missal Mom carried instead of a bouquet on her wedding day had very little of the Mass in it.

How disappointed I was when there was no sign of “big” missals after Vatican II. I’d been so looking forward to graduating from my little First Communion picture missal to the adult one.
 
Midwest Theological Forum came out with a good one. That is more recent though.

I don’t know what everyone’s deal is. The Epistle and Gospel are read in the vernacular before the homily anyways.
I like stability. I like the confiteor always being said. I like the Eucharistic Prayer always being the same.
I’m not really looking for surprises when I go to mass.
 
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CilladeRoma said:
I have my mother’s Missal from 1958. It does not have a word-for-word translation of the Mass in it. It translates some of it but not all. It is also filled with lots of other payers and devotions.
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I still have my prayer book given at my First Communion in 1955. The pictures alone explained what was going on.
 
Yes, the explained what was going on, but they were not always word for word translations like you find now.

That is my point.
 
This was 1958. The missals that are published now are a lot different.
 
Prodigal1984 said:
Or reading along with it in the missal?
What’s up with people thinking in Latin mass noone knows what is going on? If anything since I started going and reading along with mass I understand it more than I ever did in the vernacular.
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I said “many”, not all 😉

That many prayed the Rosary during Mass in those days is certainly true. That many followed along in the missal was also certainly true.

My point was just that someone in Mass would be reciting a (vernacular) Our Father, even if silently.
 
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