Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

[Bubba_Switzler]

You see it has a decline in the Church, some of us see it has a change. Do you really think the Church you want would be anything similar to the Churches that came about 2000 years ago, no. The people back then would probably be horrified at what you see as a “good” church. We are not burying our head in the sand just because we don’t agree with you.

To me some of the decline has been more people being outwardly condemning of others. Teaching and condemning are two different things. I was raised with a loving, merciful God who loved all His children whether they accepted that love or not, a Jesuit way. As a mother, I can completely related to this. Who could possibly feel truly worth of God’s love; I certainly can’t.

We all have different fights to fight, yours is not one I will be joining, but I don’t think that makes me less of a Catholic.

I suppose you could call decline a change. Sort of like calling a retreat an advance in the other direction. Lower Church attendance, lower rates of Catholic identificaiton, lower rates of following Church teahing, all are changes of a sort, I will concede.

The notion that the Church is more condeming today than in prior periods of history is absolutely preposterous. What is certainly true is that the Church has higher moral standards than secular society and, therefore, is not sufficiently “modern”. More “change” coming, I guess.

We will see what the “Jesuit way” accomplishes. I sure hope it works out better than the mainstream protestant churches have experienced following roughly the same strategy.

(Mind you, I didn’t think much of Pope Benedict’s strategy of focusing on traditional Catholics either.)

 

[shelby_sun]

It is off the subject a ways but I still think college is a major player in what shapes our lives. Not just a time to drink and party. Most people I know met their spouse in college. And work in the field of study they chose. Experimentation? Or steps on a larger path?

PS

Off the subject entirely. This idea that college is for partying and drinking and experimenting and is a time when faith takes a back seat should send shivers down every parent’s spine and cause good families to really prioritize why and where they send their kids to school.
Historically College was a time to GROW in faith. Only our modern University culture seems to have passed this up for the “experimentation”

From today’s local paper.

jconline.com/article/20131004/BOILER/310040067/When-Purdue-s-weekend-drinking-rituals-begin-community-holds-its-breath

Think twice parents.

 

[shelby_sun]

It is off the subject a ways but I still think college is a major player in what shapes our lives. Not just a time to drink and party. Most people I know met their spouse in college. And work in the field of study they chose. Experimentation? Or steps on a larger path?

PS

Off the subject entirely. This idea that college is for partying and drinking and experimenting and is a time when faith takes a back seat should send shivers down every parent’s spine and cause good families to really prioritize why and where they send their kids to school.
Historically College was a time to GROW in faith. Only our modern University culture seems to have passed this up for the “experimentation”

From today’s local paper.

jconline.com/article/20131004/BOILER/310040067/When-Purdue-s-weekend-drinking-rituals-begin-community-holds-its-breath

Think twice parents.

Please do not change wording. No one said college is FOR partying and drink or for experimentation. It is for getting an education in a certain field of study, but it does not have the purpose of having a person grow in faith unless in it a religious college or one is getting a theology degree. Most people decide where to go to college based on family history, cost, local, and where friends go.

What do you think the parents of today were doing when they were in college? They themselves were experimenting with sex, drugs, and alcohol in college.

 

[shelby_sun]

I suppose you could call decline a change. Sort of like calling a retreat an advance in the other direction. Lower Church attendance, lower rates of Catholic identificaiton, lower rates of following Church teahing, all are changes of a sort, I will concede.

The notion that the Church is more condeming today than in prior periods of history is absolutely preposterous. What is certainly true is that the Church has higher moral standards than secular society and, therefore, is not sufficiently “modern”. More “change” coming, I guess.

We will see what the “Jesuit way” accomplishes. I sure hope it works out better than the mainstream protestant churches have experienced following roughly the same strategy.

(Mind you, I didn’t think much of Pope Benedict’s strategy of focusing on traditional Catholics either.)

I guess I am missing exactly what you want? What would make you most comfortable? I found it strange when we were able to have Mass on Saturday night count or Sunday attendance, yet our Church has always been standing room on Saturday night. I thought it odd when the Church said we were only required to go to confession once a year, something I think has lead to a decline in moral behavior because can ignore their behavior for far to long.

The reason people are living the Church is because there are so many more church available and people want exactly what they want, even you. Obviously you are still a part of the Church but you don’t sound happy there. Does that unhappiness or frustration help find God in the world and in others or are you focusing on the negative you see around you? I don’t know I am asking.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

What do you think the parents of today were doing when they were in college? They themselves were experimenting with sex, drugs, and alcohol in college.

Please. Not all people had an “Animal House” College experience. Normalizing it by saying everyone does it does not change the reality that many don’t. Or shouldn’t

College is indeed a time for faith. It is just that the faith being promoted is the faith of the gods of freedom, lust, and drunkenness.
Youth are hungary. They are hungry for God and are being fed junk.
Working with Focus shows that college is not only a time of finding great faith but also of shaping your future self.

Perhaps your view is tainted.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I guess I am missing exactly what you want? What would make you most comfortable? I found it strange when we were able to have Mass on Saturday night count or Sunday attendance, yet our Church has always been standing room on Saturday night. I thought it odd when the Church said we were only required to go to confession once a year, something I think has lead to a decline in moral behavior because can ignore their behavior for far to long.

The reason people are living the Church is because there are so many more church available and people want exactly what they want, even you. Obviously you are still a part of the Church but you don’t sound happy there. Does that unhappiness or frustration help find God in the world and in others or are you focusing on the negative you see around you? I don’t know I am asking.

I want to commend you for showing the courage to ask what I want and to acknowledge that people are leaving the Church. I appreciate your sincerity.

What do I want? I want a vibrant, living, growing Church that is winning against both atheists/secularists and Protestants while retaining that which is good and true. That’s what would make me “most comfortable.” I am uncomfortable with a dying Church that is besieged from without by competing religions and irrelegions and from within by those who don’t really understand the problem or have a workable solution.

While I appreciate your acknowledgement of the problem of people leaving the Church, I disagree with your diagnosis. There have always been alternatives to the Church. It is true that in some periods of history the Church has had the arm of the state behind it but that was exceptional, not normal. In the normal state of affairs, which is the state of affairs that we have today, that the Church competes in a “free market” for souls.

In America (north and Latin) many people are leaving the Church for other denominations and religions. But particularly in Europe, but also in North America, people are just leaving the Church without joining another. European Churches are emptying across denominations.

In Romans times some pagan temples had prostitutes. Very interesting for young men, I would gather. The Church did not compete by offering Church prostitutes. Today universities offer instruction and guidance on every aspect of sex, even courses on orgasm and sex toys. Popular culture is filled with sex and invitations to sexual license. I’m not obsessing with sex because I am a prude, I am pointing to one big reason that secularism is popular. I could give similar examples in many other areas.

People want what they want. Since the fall they have always wanted what they want. This is not something new that explains the (relatively) recent decline of the Church.

The Church survived the Naughy Popes. It will survive Pope Francis and the “Jesuit Way”. The challenge will remain for the next pope.

 

[pnewton]

We will see what the “Jesuit way” accomplishes. I sure hope it works out better than the mainstream protestant churches have experienced following roughly the same strategy.

Where God leads, I will go. The Holy Spirit has given us this man for a reason, and I don’t think it is so those that like to grumble have something new to grumble about.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Where God leads, I will go. The Holy Spirit has given us this man for a reason, and I don’t think it is so those that like to grumble have something new to grumble about.

Can people who “grumble” about Pope Francis and the “Jesuit Way” go to heaven?

 

[pnewton]

Can people who “grumble” about Pope Francis and the “Jesuit Way” go to heaven?

As the Catholic Church does not declare any person to be in Hell by name, it is possible that any person is in Heaven. If we are to discuss what *can *happen, as in the future, no one is doomed to Hell without hope of repentance. So the answer is, “yes”, as it would be if yor replace grumbling with any sinful action, up to and including being the chief sinner, a persecutor of Christians, and holding the coats for the stoning of Stephen.

 

[shelby_sun]

Please. Not all people had an “Animal House” College experience. Normalizing it by saying everyone does it does not change the reality that many don’t. Or shouldn’t

College is indeed a time for faith. It is just that the faith being promoted is the faith of the gods of freedom, lust, and drunkenness.
Youth are hungary. They are hungry for God and are being fed junk.
Working with Focus shows that college is not only a time of finding great faith but also of shaping your future self.

Perhaps your view is tainted.

AGAIN, I did not say everyone. I have now read some of your other post and you seem to change wording quite often. Of course there are many who don’t.

Again after reading your post you seem to need to always be right. I grew up the youngest in a large Catholic family. We all graduated from colleges in different parts of the country ranging from Catholic, to military, state schools, and small private colleges and our experience were all the same. Of course this came over a spanned of years. Our spouses and children and their friends all found the same things. There were always groups that did not participate in that behavior but there were always more that did. Did you belong to one of the many sororities or frat? If not than you would not have seen it. Did you go to the football games with all the tailgating parties (one at each gate) that took place with alcohol being freely passed around.

If you were into deeper things in life you would not have seen it. I was very shy and protected by my siblings so I did not participate, but if out with friends surely saw it. But of course you could not be the one tainted, which I have gather from other post. So I am living it that we disagree.

 

[shelby_sun]

I want to commend you for showing the courage to ask what I want and to acknowledge that people are leaving the Church. I appreciate your sincerity.

What do I want? I want a vibrant, living, growing Church that is winning against both atheists/secularists and Protestants while retaining that which is good and true. That’s what would make me “most comfortable.” I am uncomfortable with a dying Church that is besieged from without by competing religions and irrelegions and from within by those who don’t really understand the problem or have a workable solution.

While I appreciate your acknowledgement of the problem of people leaving the Church, I disagree with your diagnosis. There have always been alternatives to the Church. It is true that in some periods of history the Church has had the arm of the state behind it but that was exceptional, not normal. In the normal state of affairs, which is the state of affairs that we have today, that the Church competes in a “free market” for souls.

In America (north and Latin) many people are leaving the Church for other denominations and religions. But particularly in Europe, but also in North America, people are just leaving the Church without joining another. European Churches are emptying across denominations.

In Romans times some pagan temples had prostitutes. Very interesting for young men, I would gather. The Church did not compete by offering Church prostitutes. Today universities offer instruction and guidance on every aspect of sex, even courses on orgasm and sex toys. Popular culture is filled with sex and invitations to sexual license. I’m not obsessing with sex because I am a prude, I am pointing to one big reason that secularism is popular. I could give similar examples in many other areas.

People want what they want. Since the fall they have always wanted what they want. This is not something new that explains the (relatively) recent decline of the Church.

The Church survived the Naughy Popes. It will survive Pope Francis and the “Jesuit Way”. The challenge will remain for the next pope.

Thank you for your answer. Now I ask, as you are trying to “win” against all those others, where is your own deep personal relationship with God? How do you truly understand what you are trying to win unless you know God as personally as possible, which needs to be a daily. That is not to assume you are not doing that already. I have to keep working on mine throughout everyday.

I am not naive about how people have left for other religions, but I think that might be why Pope Francis was selected in the first place. Our Jesuit community is all that you said you wanted,a vibrant, living, growing Church. However, the main focus is not on converting others, but rather continually trying to grow closer to God and finding God in everything and everyone we experience each day. By doing that and sharing that kind of way with others seems help lead others closer to God.

I just ask that you be a little open minded, have patience, and focus on what good Pope Francis may do for the world. It is all about bringing people back to the Church, even if they are sinners, for we are all sinners. Only time will tell, but from experience I wouldn’t get to nervous yet.

 

[shelby_sun]

Can people who “grumble” about Pope Francis and the “Jesuit Way” go to heaven?

Boy I sure hope so because I myself have grumbled about one or two Jesuits in my time. Would those of us that have always practiced the “Jesuit Way” get into heaven under Pope Benedict’s leadership or the next pope. Again, I just hope God has mercy on me for all my limitations, spiritual and other ways.

I hope to see you there even though we follow slightly different way of getting there.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

AGAIN, I did not say everyone. I have now read some of your other post and you seem to change wording quite often. Of course there are many who don’t.

Again after reading your post you seem to need to always be right. I grew up the youngest in a large Catholic family. We all graduated from colleges in different parts of the country ranging from Catholic, to military, state schools, and small private colleges and our experience were all the same. Of course this came over a spanned of years. Our spouses and children and their friends all found the same things. There were always groups that did not participate in that behavior but there were always more that did. Did you belong to one of the many sororities or frat? If not than you would not have seen it. Did you go to the football games with all the tailgating parties (one at each gate) that took place with alcohol being freely passed around.

If you were into deeper things in life you would not have seen it. I was very shy and protected by my siblings so I did not participate, but if out with friends surely saw it. But of course you could not be the one tainted, which I have gather from other post. So I am living it that we disagree.

Thanks for the personal insight to myself. I had not bothered to consider that I must always be right.

The problem is that if I say you are right, I do always need to be right, then I am of course wrong. And if I say you are wrong than I am always right.
Kind of a “when did you stop beating your wife” kind of accusation from you.

Well played.

And now that we have taken things totally off subject…

Who cares. You have your experiences and I have mine.
You could start a thread about college and faith but I just don’t care enough to contribute.

Have a nice day. I’m sure we will meet again.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Thank you for your answer. Now I ask, as you are trying to “win” against all those others, where is your own deep personal relationship with God? How do you truly understand what you are trying to win unless you know God as personally as possible, which needs to be a daily. That is not to assume you are not doing that already. I have to keep working on mine throughout everyday.

One is in no way exclusive of the other. I’m also keeping up my exercise and diet while “grumbling” about Pope Francis.

I am not naive about how people have left for other religions, but I think that might be why Pope Francis was selected in the first place. Our Jesuit community is all that you said you wanted,a vibrant, living, growing Church.

From what I have read, the Jesuit community is anything but vibrant, living, and growing. Wheras the Jesuits were once the smartest guys in the room, today they more resemble university professors, overeducated and disconnected from reality.

However, the main focus is not on converting others, but rather continually trying to grow closer to God and finding God in everything and everyone we experience each day. By doing that and sharing that kind of way with others seems help lead others closer to God.

I just ask that you be a little open minded, have patience, and focus on what good Pope Francis may do for the world. It is all about bringing people back to the Church, even if they are sinners, for we are all sinners. Only time will tell, but from experience I wouldn’t get to nervous yet.

Whether or not evangilization is the “main focus” of the Church, it is one of its most important missions. We both agree that the Church is not growing but shrinking; it is not only not winning others, it is losing its own children. That is a problem in search of a solution and pointing to other things that the Jesuits or the Church are doing well ought not distract us from this problem.

The official mission of the Society of Jesuits is evangilization and apologetics. They began as shock troops in the counterreformation. Apparently, though, they have since lost interest in that mission. I am not at all impressed with the new “Jesuit Way”.

I’m sure Pope Francis will accomplish something. If nothing else, he should be able to clean up the Vatican. And surely some good will come of having a pastorally oriented pope after the more intellectual Pope Benedict.

But I have heard nothing from him that would encourage me that he will be able to stem the tide of exodus much less bring people back to the Church. Of course, we are all sinners. But the idea that there are all these sinners out there who believe that they are not welcome in the Chuch because they are imperfect strikes me as absurd. Anyone who has the most basic understanding of Christianity knows that God loves saints and sinners alike and that “more joy shall be in Heaven over one sinner that repenteth, than over ninety and nine just persons who need no repentance.”

 

[pnewton]

FYI - not everyone buys the premise of failure of the Catholic Church, which has grown over the last four decades.

cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html
1970 - 653.6m
1975 - 709.6m
1985 - 852.0m
1995 - 989.4m
2000 - 1.045b
2005 - 1.115b
2010 - 1.196b

I think in light of the increase of atheism and secularism, I simply can not believe that the Holy Spirit is steering us wrong. I am reminded of the doom and gloom of Elijah after he ran across Israel thinking he was the last one.

**Elijah: ** and I, even I only, am left…

**God:**I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

FYI - not everyone buys the premise of failure of the Catholic Church, which has grown over the last four decades.

cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html
1970 - 653.6m
1975 - 709.6m
1985 - 852.0m
1995 - 989.4m
2000 - 1.045b
2005 - 1.115b
2010 - 1.196b

A big chunk of that is simply immigration from Latin America (and places like the Phillipines and Vietnam).

You should have no trouble finding articles like this:

worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/05/17184588-as-church-attendance-drops-europes-most-catholic-country-seeks-modern-pope?

Unlike the US, immigration to Europe is largely Muslim.

I think in light of the increase of atheism and secularism, I simply can not believe that the Holy Spirit is steering us wrong. I am reminded of the doom and gloom of Elijah after he ran across Israel thinking he was the last one.

Hmmm. The growth of atheism and secularism is evidence that the Church is on the right track. I will grant you that you have more faith than I do. Pope Benedict had pursued the remnant strategy.

 

[pnewton]

A big chunk of that is simply immigration from Latin America (and places like the Phillipines and Vietnam).
.

The Catholic Church is world wide, as are those figures. Immigration has a zero sum effect on figures for the total world.

If one looks just at America (Europe or any other single demographic), then it is important to also look at the world and at other faiths in that demographic. For example, in America, the only two denominations showing any increase at present in America is Catholics and Baptists. Yet if one goes to Africa one will find a Catholic boom. This is why I believe much of the blame that I read here is misplaced. If one wants blame as to why their own parish is losing members, look closer to home. If one wants to understand why America is not as fervent as Africa, then look her at America. The truth is, prosperity has always been a wet blanket to evangelization. That is our challenge. When one adds the moral decay from the advent of birth control and the resulting sexual revolution, holding our own locally is good.

Pope Benedict had pursued the remnant strategy.

I simply can not buy this. I know Pope Benedict never said that and since God wills the salvation of all, I just do not see the mercy of God throwing in the towel on most of humanity. You are right about me be more optimistic, but remember that Hope is a theological virtue. Pessimism is not. Whenever we get too down on anything, and we all do, it is vital to find ways to nurture that virtue.

 

[shelby_sun]

One is in no way exclusive of the other. I’m also keeping up my exercise and diet while “grumbling” about Pope Francis.

From what I have read, the Jesuit community is anything but vibrant, living, and growing. Wheras the Jesuits were once the smartest guys in the room, today they more resemble university professors, overeducated and disconnected from reality.

Whether or not evangilization is the “main focus” of the Church, it is one of its most important missions. We both agree that the Church is not growing but shrinking; it is not only not winning others, it is losing its own children. That is a problem in search of a solution and pointing to other things that the Jesuits or the Church are doing well ought not distract us from this problem.

The official mission of the Society of Jesuits is evangilization and apologetics. They began as shock troops in the counterreformation. Apparently, though, they have since lost interest in that mission. I am not at all impressed with the new “Jesuit Way”.

I’m sure Pope Francis will accomplish something. If nothing else, he should be able to clean up the Vatican. And surely some good will come of having a pastorally oriented pope after the more intellectual Pope Benedict.

But I have heard nothing from him that would encourage me that he will be able to stem the tide of exodus much less bring people back to the Church. Of course, we are all sinners. But the idea that there are all these sinners out there who believe that they are not welcome in the Chuch because they are imperfect strikes me as absurd. Anyone who has the most basic understanding of Christianity knows that God loves saints and sinners alike and that “more joy shall be in Heaven over one sinner that repenteth, than over ninety and nine just persons who need no repentance.”

Well I guess you have missed other threads that have said sinners have no place in church. I am not hear to defend the Jesuits only to tell you to try to keep an open mind. Better men than I thought Pope Francis should be our Pope so maybe people should start looking at why those men picked him in the first place. These are the leader of your Church who picked a man that never aspired to be the Pope. Why?

You must remember Jesuits are not only in universities, they still over see high schools where they very much deal with the reality teen problems and broken or abusive families. With that point your are simply very wrong.

It sounds like you will be very uncomfortable while Pope Francis leads the church. All I can say for living through the last few priests is that if you focus on the good they do and the positive traits they have it gets better.

 

[shelby_sun]

Thanks for the personal insight to myself. I had not bothered to consider that I must always be right.

The problem is that if I say you are right, I do always need to be right, then I am of course wrong. And if I say you are wrong than I am always right.
Kind of a “when did you stop beating your wife” kind of accusation from you.

Well played.

And now that we have taken things totally off subject…

Who cares. You have your experiences and I have mine.
You could start a thread about college and faith but I just don’t care enough to contribute.

Have a nice day. I’m sure we will meet again.

No I actually won’t. Good luck here.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The Catholic Church is world wide, as are those figures. Immigration has a zero sum effect on figures for the total world.

If one looks just at America (Europe or any other single demographic), then it is important to also look at the world and at other faiths in that demographic. For example, in America, the only two denominations showing any increase at present in America is Catholics and Baptists. Yet if one goes to Africa one will find a Catholic boom. This is why I believe much of the blame that I read here is misplaced. If one wants blame as to why their own parish is losing members, look closer to home. If one wants to understand why America is not as fervent as Africa, then look her at America. The truth is, prosperity has always been a wet blanket to evangelization. That is our challenge. When one adds the moral decay from the advent of birth control and the resulting sexual revolution, holding our own locally is good.

My mistake, you are right. I didn’t look closely enough at your citation and figures.

However, the problem with worldwide figures is that growth in Africa (which you mentioned) and Asia obscures declines in Europe and the Americas.

And, no, the declines are not local to parishes. Abandoning the developed world to atheism is a much broader phenomenon than that. The Church’s challenge is how to sustain Catholicism in the developed world.

And note that it is not merely a case of rich people abandoning Christianity. Atheism has gained ground across the social spectrum in advanced countries. And just as Europe’s atheism has been an appeal for Americans, so European and American atheism will one day become an appeal for Africa and Asia.

This is a very serious problem that the Church must face as a whole, not simply at an indiviual parish level.

I simply can not buy this. I know Pope Benedict never said that and since God wills the salvation of all, I just do not see the mercy of God throwing in the towel on most of humanity. You are right about me be more optimistic, but remember that Hope is a theological virtue. Pessimism is not. Whenever we get too down on anything, and we all do, it is vital to find ways to nurture that virtue.

He never used the term “remnant” but that was the gist of it. A remnant strategy does not throw in the towel on the rest, it simply describes where the focus is. Pope Benedict wanted to revitalize the core by, for example, reviving the Latin mass.