Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

[Bubba_Switzler]

Let me ask you, if The Church goes the way you think it will go, what will you do? Will you stay?

If I am the last Catholic then I get to be pope.

In the mean time, I’ll continue to look around for others who take this issue seriously. I have found individuals here and there, often with their own small success stories, but as of yet no Catholic institution focusing on it.

Maybe it will have to await a new pope and Vatican III. Or maybe after Pope Francis cleans up the Vatican he will turn his attention to this in a more serious way.

Maybe I will leave the Church, though, because Pope Francis has made me feel very unwelcome as a chronic food waster.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

As I said, they feel rejected by the Church. Their stories are too complicated (and personal) to relate here in detail. In short, some are divorced and remarried women who have left the Catholic Church for other denominations. The believe the Church has rejected them in several ways, including by telling them they are no longer welcome to be full participants in the Church. I know you will say they rejected the Church, or earned the Church’s rejection with their actions, but I am talking about their perceptions not yours. I know at least four women in this situation.

A few are women that believe the Church has rejected them by being demeaning and disrespectful toward women generally. Again, I know you will disagree with their perception, but their perception is real to them and a cause for them to leave.

And you know what happens when women leave the Church - they take their men with them. Husbands, sons, and sometimes even brothers and fathers.

Come to think of it, most of the fallen away men I know have not left because they feel rejected, but either because they disagree with the Church’s teaching in some important way, or because they are following their women.

I also know a few gay people who feel the Church holds them to a much harsher standard, and deals with them much more harshly, then the Church does their heterosexual peers. Again - their perception and their reason for leaving, whether you agree with them or not.

Fair enough. In order to respect their privacy I’m going to make some educated guesses. Don’t bother correcting my guesses unless they impact the direction of the argument. And you have correctly anticipated at least part of my response but I have more to say as I will explain.

I’m going to guess that these women are using contraceptives. You mentioned that “they are no longer welcome to be full participants in the Church” which I will assume means that they have been told (not personally but generally) that they cannot take communion until they go to confession and sincerely repent. They are not satisfied to sit in Church if they cannot go up with everyone else. Perhaps they even feel embarassed by that.

Here is the first thing to note: These women are willing to break the Church rule on contraceptives but not to break the rule on taking communion. Priests do not know who is using contraceptives, they will not turn them away. And most priests don’t turn away unrepetent sinners even when they do know.

But let’s suppose for the moment that this is really the issue. What are these women expecting? What is Pope Francis going to have to do to satisfy them?

It will not be sufficient for Francis to coo softly about God’s grace and mercy. He is going to have to reverse Saint Paul and declare, ex Cathedra, that it is a-ok for unrepentent sinners to take communion. Do you think Pope Francis will do that? I’m skeptical.

But we’re not done yet.

Let’s take the example of your homosexual friends. I’m willing to bet my baptismal candle that they would not be satisfied even with that. If they are like most homosexuals, they are demanding that the Church repent as so many other institutions have done already. What are the odds of Pope Francis declaring that homosexuality is not, and never was, a sin? I’m doubly skeptical.

Overall, I am extremely skeptical that these family and friends will return to the Church under Pope Francis’ current initiatives.

 

[TMC]

Fair enough. In order to respect their privacy I’m going to make some educated guesses. Don’t bother correcting my guesses unless they impact the direction of the argument. And you have correctly anticipated at least part of my response but I have more to say as I will explain.

I’m going to guess that these women are using contraceptives. You mentioned that “they are no longer welcome to be full participants in the Church” which I will assume means that they have been told (not personally but generally) that they cannot take communion until they go to confession and sincerely repent. They are not satisfied to sit in Church if they cannot go up with everyone else. Perhaps they even feel embarassed by that.

Here is the first thing to note: These women are willing to break the Church rule on contraceptives but not to break the rule on taking communion. Priests do not know who is using contraceptives, they will not turn them away. And most priests don’t turn away unrepetent sinners even when they do know.

But let’s suppose for the moment that this is really the issue. What are these women expecting? What is Pope Francis going to have to do to satisfy them?

It will not be sufficient for Francis to coo softly about God’s grace and mercy. He is going to have to reverse Saint Paul and declare, ex Cathedra, that it is a-ok for unrepentent sinners to take communion. Do you think Pope Francis will do that? I’m skeptical.

But we’re not done yet.

Let’s take the example of your homosexual friends. I’m willing to bet my baptismal candle that they would not be satisfied even with that. If they are like most homosexuals, they are demanding that the Church repent as so many other institutions have done already. What are the odds of Pope Francis declaring that homosexuality is not, and never was, a sin? I’m doubly skeptical.

Overall, I am extremely skeptical that these family and friends will return to the Church under Pope Francis’ current initiatives.

Contraception is not the issue, divorce is the issue. I don’t know any Catholic women who follow the Church’s teaching on contraception, or any that feel any guilt about that, or any that feel they should abstain from communion because of it. BTW, they are not merely willing to “break the rules,” they believe the rules are wrong and that they are following their consciences in this matter.

As to these individuals returning - you are probably right. But a different pastoral approach may prevent a new generation of Catholics from leaving.

 

[shelby_sun]

If I am the last Catholic then I get to be pope.

In the mean time, I’ll continue to look around for others who take this issue seriously. I have found individuals here and there, often with their own small success stories, but as of yet no Catholic institution focusing on it.

Maybe it will have to await a new pope and Vatican III. Or maybe after Pope Francis cleans up the Vatican he will turn his attention to this in a more serious way.

Maybe I will leave the Church, though, because Pope Francis has made me feel very unwelcome as a chronic food waster.

First, let me say you have avoid some points that I have brought up. You seem to focus on Pope Francis yet you have yet to comment on the fact that many, many leaders of our Church (non-Jesuits) selected him quite readily to lead our Church. Do you not think that they know better than you or I on what the Church needs right now? And that they knew fully well, which they should have, what kind of person (a religious Jesuit) they were selecting; his beliefs, his way of living his faith, etc. Again Pope Francis is not to blame for being our Pope, a position he never wanted. Why not focus on all those who picked him to lead our Church. All those non-Jesuits!

Second, maybe he was selected to clean up the Vatican and the corruption that has taking place for far too long, again not under Jesuit leadership. You seem to want to focus on all the bad things the Jesuits have done, but have you ever considered that a Pope Francis was selected to “fix” all the damage the non-Jesuits leaders have done in the Vatican. Maybe you do that so no one else will focus on it.

You cannot blame someone else for how you feel. It is not Pope Francis’ fault that you continue to be negative, closed minded, and uneducated. I find that very ironic as you are try to argue that it is not the Church fault for others to feel unwelcome, but rather that is their own fault.

All I know is that becoming a part of my Jesuit community as had a huge positive affect on my very Southern Baptist in laws. My son who attends a Jesuit high school has many different religions among its students, from Catholic, to Jewish, to Muslims. I cannot tell you how many non Catholic parents and student absolutely love that school. They never try to convert anyone. It amazes me to see so many non-Catholics show up for our Christmas mass. That is what it is all about. Not convert, but teaching, sharing experiences, living out faith with others. What they do with it is up to them. We are a living, growing Church whether you want to believe that or not.

I am very proud to be a “Jesuit Catholic”, but we are no better or worse than others. I have no time for those who focus on condemning others or pointing out their flaws. That is not what Jesus is about!!! I truly feel God will take issue with that in the end; just my opinion.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Contraception is not the issue, divorce is the issue. I don’t know any Catholic women who follow the Church’s teaching on contraception, or any that feel any guilt about that, or any that feel they should abstain from communion because of it. BTW, they are not merely willing to “break the rules,” they believe the rules are wrong and that they are following their consciences in this matter.

As to these individuals returning - you are probably right. But a different pastoral approach may prevent a new generation of Catholics from leaving.

Remarriage (civil divorce is actually not prohibited) is another big issue with the same traits.

But you have described the situation precisely: Not only are they unrepentent but they are demanding that the Church repent and change it’s ways. They are not satisfied with a private disagreement with the Church, they want to lead a reformation.

I’m glad we finally got to the nub of the issue here.

So now let’s spend some time on it.

You’ve conced that these family and friends are not returning but do you realy think happy talk about God’s grace is going to prevent other remarried Catholics (and users of contraception and homosexuals) from following them out the door? Is the different approach you hinting at one of changing the rules to make them feel “welcome”?

 

[TMC]

Remarriage (civil divorce is actually not prohibited) is another big issue with the same traits.

But you have described the situation precisely: Not only are they unrepentent but they are demanding that the Church repent and change it’s ways. They are not satisfied with a private disagreement with the Church, they want to lead a reformation.

I’m glad we finally got to the nub of the issue here.

So now let’s spend some time on it.

You’ve conced that these family and friends are not returning but do you realy think happy talk about God’s grace is going to prevent other remarried Catholics (and users of contraception and homosexuals) from following them out the door? Is the different approach you hinting at one of changing the rules to make them feel “welcome”?

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth there, but lets skip to the end and answer your question.

“Happy talk” will not help the Church, but “happy talk” is not what Pope Francis is talking about, or what the Church needs. A real change in attitude towards the laity, including (but not limited to) those that disagree or struggle with some Church teachings would be helpful. I hope the Pope can achieve that, but I am not positive that he can.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

First, let me say you have avoid some points that I have brought up. You seem to focus on Pope Francis yet you have yet to comment on the fact that many, many leaders of our Church (non-Jesuits) selected him quite readily to lead our Church. Do you not think that they know better than you or I on what the Church needs right now? And that they knew fully well, which they should have, what kind of person (a religious Jesuit) they were selecting; his beliefs, his way of living his faith, etc. Again Pope Francis is not to blame for being our Pope, a position he never wanted. Why not focus on all those who picked him to lead our Church. All those non-Jesuits!

I don’t comment on what’s bloody obvious. I know Pope Francis is our duly elected pope. And if you want to cast stones for ignoring points you might want check the log in your own eye first. (See e.g. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11285919&postcount=394).

Second, maybe he was selected to clean up the Vatican and the corruption that has taking place for far too long, again not under Jesuit leadership. You seem to want to focus on all the bad things the Jesuits have done, but have you ever considered that a Pope Francis was selected to “fix” all the damage the non-Jesuits leaders have done in the Vatican. Maybe you do that so no one else will focus on it.

I have no reason to think that he is not up to that job. But you misunderstand the role of the pope if you think pope’s are elected to solve specific problems. Yes, being pope means taking on all the problems of the Church, presumably those most important first. As I said repeatedly, it may be that we have to wait for the next pope for this problem to be addressed. Or maybe when he’s done with the vatican he’ll be ready for a much bigger project. But as for what he’s saying now on this matter, no, not very helpful.

You cannot blame someone else for how you feel. It is not Pope Francis’ fault that you continue to be negative, closed minded, and uneducated. I find that very ironic as you are try to argue that it is not the Church fault for others to feel unwelcome, but rather that is their own fault.

All I know is that becoming a part of my Jesuit community as had a huge positive affect on my very Southern Baptist in laws. My son who attends a Jesuit high school has many different religions among its students, from Catholic, to Jewish, to Muslims. I cannot tell you how many non Catholic parents and student absolutely love that school. They never try to convert anyone. It amazes me to see so many non-Catholics show up for our Christmas mass. That is what it is all about. Not convert, but teaching, sharing experiences, living out faith with others. What they do with it is up to them. We are a living, growing Church whether you want to believe that or not.

I am very proud to be a “Jesuit Catholic”, but we are no better or worse than others. I have no time for those who focus on condemning others or pointing out their flaws. That is not what Jesus is about!!! I truly feel God will take issue with that in the end; just my opinion.

I’m glad you are happy. I wish the Jesuits were more focused on their historical mission but maybe we just need a new Jesuit order. It’s a job that someone needs to do.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth there, but lets skip to the end and answer your question.

“Happy talk” will not help the Church, but “happy talk” is not what Pope Francis is talking about, or what the Church needs. A real change in attitude towards the laity, including (but not limited to) those that disagree or struggle with some Church teachings would be helpful. I hope the Pope can achieve that, but I am not positive that he can.

I think you are much closer here to the core issue but you are still underestimating the problem. I think something more fundamental is required, something even bigger than the counterreformation and Vatican II combined. I have not written off Pope Francis yet, I’m just “grumbling” that he is not yet being serious.

 

[shelby_sun]

I don’t comment on what’s bloody obvious. I know Pope Francis is our duly elected pope. And if you want to cast stones for ignoring points you might want check the log in your own eye first. (See e.g. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11285919&postcount=394).

What is even more bloody obvious is that we are all sinners, why does he need to keep screaming that from the roof tops? I have not ignored points, I have simply not experienced people leaving the Church because very few leave a Jesuit Church, we just don’t see it. Like I said, there are many non-Catholics that attend our school Mass to be apart of our community. My brother is a very evangelizing Protestant who has tried to convert everyone in my family to the point now that we refuse to see him. Why would I want to go out and do what I don’t want someone doing to me. I live my faith and show people what it means to be Catholic, answering any questions they might have.

You want to focus on Pope Francis to be a scapegoat for all those non-religious that selected him. Again you are not addressing why they might have selected him. Any thoughts on that or are you just going to keep focusing on this man who never wanted the position in the first place. What does the say about where they want to the Church to go?

I have no reason to think that he is not up to that job. But you misunderstand the role of the pope if you think pope’s are elected to solve specific problems. Yes, being pope means taking on all the problems of the Church, presumably those most important first. As I said repeatedly, it may be that we have to wait for the next pope for this problem to be addressed. Or maybe when he’s done with the vatican he’ll be ready for a much bigger project. But as for what he’s saying now on this matter, no, not very helpful.

Did the last Pope address the problem because if he did, he failed. Again this is not a new issue under Pope Francis. What is your take on the role of the last few Popes under which many left the Church?

I’m glad you are happy. I wish the Jesuits were more focused on their historical mission but maybe we just need a new Jesuit order. It’s a job that someone needs to do.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

What is even more bloody obvious is that we are all sinners, why does he need to keep screaming that from the roof tops? I have not ignored points, I have simply not experienced people leaving the Church because very few leave a Jesuit Church, we just don’t see it. Like I said, there are many non-Catholics that attend our school Mass to be apart of our community. My brother is a very evangelizing Protestant who has tried to convert everyone in my family to the point now that we refuse to see him. Why would I want to go out and do what I don’t want someone doing to me. I live my faith and show people what it means to be Catholic, answering any questions they might have.

Good for you. But do you know what a false dichotomy is?

You want to focus on Pope Francis to be a scapegoat for all those non-religious that selected him. Again you are not addressing why they might have selected him. Any thoughts on that or are you just going to keep focusing on this man who never wanted the position in the first place. What does the say about where they want to the Church to go?

I just find this so unworthy of response.

Did the last Pope address the problem because if he did, he failed. Again this is not a new issue under Pope Francis. What is your take on the role of the last few Popes under which many left the Church?

This problem has gone unresolved since the Enlightenment. Many popes have taken a whack at it. The stated purpose of Vactican II was to bring the Church into modernity. But it was followed by, some people say caused, an exodus.

No, it is not a new issue. It is a longstanding issue that remains unresolved.

 

[shelby_sun]

Good for you. But do you know what a false dichotomy is?

I just find this so unworthy of response.

Really, wow. It sounds like you are just avoiding that the leaders of our Church made this decision and you would rather just focus on the Pope and what you feel he is doing wrong.
That is very limited.

It is a huge point of interest. When a Demo. is elected President we think it says something about how the people want direction of country to go. You don’t think this applies here? The Bishops and Cardinals were not at odds at the selection, which is even more interesting. You are just refusing to respond because it doesn’t suit your purpose.

 

[pnewton]

Overall, I am extremely skeptical that these family and friends will return to the Church under Pope Francis’ current initiatives.

I think people mired in sexual immorality have even a harder time turning loose of their sin than people mired in their own pride. I think few people who get too hardened in their sin can turn loose, but I would hate do say I am skeptical. I prefer to hope, then recognize the difficulties of the situation. It seems I know more people who have homosexual tendencies that are living celibate, or trying to, in the past. Just like we shouldn’t sell God’s mercy short, neither should we sell his grace short. It is sufficient.

I think maybe a committed modernist might even have a harder time coming to repentance than one with a disordered sexual attraction. The former involve a new way of thinking. At least with a sexual sin, there is always confession.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Really, wow. It sounds like you are just avoiding that the leaders of our Church made this decision and you would rather just focus on the Pope and what you feel he is doing wrong. That is very limited.

It is a huge point of interest. When a Demo. is elected President we think it says something about how the people want direction of country to go. You don’t think this applies here? The Bishops and Cardinals were not at odds at the selection, which is even more interesting. You are just refusing to respond because it doesn’t suit your purpose.

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that if you can just convince me that Pope Francis was duly elected Pope by the diverse college of Cardinals then I’ll just kiss his ring and shut up.

Sorry to disappoint you.

But it is amusing. Here you are advocating for Pope Francis, defending his attempts to make the Church more welcoming to those who disagree with it on points of theological and moral teaching and you want to tell me I can’t disagree with our pope on a matter of tactics.

Is that the “Jesuit way”?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I think people mired in sexual immorality have even a harder time turning loose of their sin than people mired in their own pride. I think few people who get too hardened in their sin can turn loose, but I would hate do say I am skeptical. I prefer to hope, then recognize the difficulties of the situation. It seems I know more people who have homosexual tendencies that are living celibate, or trying to, in the past. Just like we shouldn’t sell God’s mercy short, neither should we sell his grace short. It is sufficient.

I think maybe a committed modernist might even have a harder time coming to repentance than one with a disordered sexual attraction. The former involve a new way of thinking. At least with a sexual sin, there is always confession.

I suspect that the two go hand-in-hand. Look, this is a very hard problem.

If we are to believe Genesis, Adam and Eve were ashamed when they got caught eating from the tree of knowledge. They didn’t wag their finger at God condemning him for making them feel unwelcome in the Garden of Eden.

Now maybe Genesis is silent on Adam and Eve’s deepest thoughts or maybe people today really are worse in their prideful unrepentence.

But here we are. This is the problem that the Church faces today. It’s a difficult problem that will require a great pope. Maybe even a succession of great popes.

 

[clem456]

I
But here we are. This is the problem that the Church faces today. It’s a difficult problem that will require a great pope. Maybe even a succession of great popes.

You may find yourself in waiting mode for a long long time.

From last Sunday:

"If you have faith the size of a mustard seed,
you would say to this mulberry tree,
'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.

Note the word “you” (we, us)

Note Jesus does not say “when you get the Pope you prefer you well see something great…”
Something is happening now, the Pope is calling us to discipleship. Will we participate, or will we dwell on our skepticism?

 

[shelby_sun]

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that if you can just convince me that Pope Francis was duly elected Pope by the diverse college of Cardinals then I’ll just kiss his ring and shut up.

Sorry to disappoint you.

But it is amusing. Here you are advocating for Pope Francis, defending his attempts to make the Church more welcoming to those who disagree with it on points of theological and moral teaching and you want to tell me I can’t disagree with our pope on a matter of tactics.

Is that the “Jesuit way”?

No, you are operating under the misapprehension that I was trying to convince you to follow Pope Francis or that you should shut up. Voicing ones concerns is a big part of this forum. To be blunt, I really don’t care if you follow him or not or that you are uncomfortable with the situation. That is between you and God.

You can disagree with him all you want, fine by me. What is under fair is that you seem to want to blame him and only him for the state of the Church and to convince others that you are right; however, the more you speak I think the more you are hurting your cause.

As I said before I think the men who selected Pope Francis, just like the men who select Pope Benedict, knew far better than either one of us what is best for the Church. You keep focusing on Pope Francis and his ways. I think he is man enough to handle it. You are the one choosing to take a negative view of things, which I just cannot see helping your faith, best of luck getting through it.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

What is under fair is that you seem to want to blame him and only him for the state of the Church and to convince others that you are right…

Sorry, but that is a completely baseless acusation.

 

[shelby_sun]

Sorry, but that is a completely baseless acusation.

Well of course it is, and yours are all are not.

Like I said I wish you the best of luck trying to endure Pope Francis. I hope you find the peace.

 

[pnewton]

But here we are. This is the problem that the Church faces today. It’s a difficult problem that will require a great pope. Maybe even a succession of great popes.

What we really need is more of us to become saints. That is something we can only work on for ourselves.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

What we really need is more of us to become saints. That is something we can only work on for ourselves.

Agreed.