Pope Francis calls for abolishing death penalty and life imprisonment

[Weejee]

I am in total agreement with the pope as to the death penalty and I agree with him that it is important to focus more on rehabilitation. But there are people that you just cannot rehabilitate so what do you do in those cases. What do you do with the Jeffrey Dahmers, the ted bundys and the Richie ramirezes. You cannot just rule out life in prison in its entirety because there are people who will never rehabilitate

AGREED!

 

[on_the_hill]

The life-imprisonment part I don’t get, but I agree about the death penalty.

People who are strongly opposed to capital punishment will sometimes equate life imprisonment as equally cruel. They cite examples of notoriously evil murderers who ask for death over a life term as evidence that life imprisonment is more cruel than death.

 

[Weejee]

Yes, it saddens me to see that, on the issue of the death penalty, the US is right in there with China and a bunch of Middle Eastern countries. It leads me to believe we are doing something wrong.

Or perhaps something right! Moderate Moslems are very out of the closet about loving their God.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Maybe someone SHOULD be arguing with this pope. Maybe a lot of people should be arguing with this pope.

Some criminals deserve to be shot. They have no hope for SOCIAL redemption. We even put rabid dogs down. Read Justice Sotomeyer’s book. Even says there are some people who are beyond social redemption.

Here’s a link to the bookstore if you can’t find the book in the library.

barnesandnoble.com/listing/2670775844697?r=1&kpid=2670775844697&cm_mmc=Google%20Product%20Search--Q000000633--2670775844697PLA--Book_25To44--Q000000633-_-2670775844697

What?

 

[Dawnia]

I can understand doing away with capital punishment and I can see life (name removed by moderator)risonment being unreasonable in some cases (3 strikes cases for nonviolent crimes).

I think I also understand the part about social justice over (name removed by moderator)risonment. There are places where the government sets people up to fail. Such as building public housing where jobs and reliable transportation is inaccessible and instead of finding solutions so that people can help themselves, they instead concentrate on punishing those people when they turn to unapproved capitalist ventures to earn money.

But, I’m not getting what he’s talking about here:

The pope said that, although a number of countries have formally abolished capital punishment, “the death penalty, illegally and to a varying extent, is applied all over the planet,” because “extrajudicial executions” are often disguised as “clashes with offenders or presented as the undesired consequences of the reasonable, necessary and proportionate use of force to apply the law.”

Is he really saying that it’s wrong to use deadly force when necessary?

 

[Rence]

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Pope Francis called for abolition of the death penalty as well as life imprisonment, and denounced what he called a “penal populism” that promises to solve society’s problems by punishing crime instead of pursuing social justice.

“It is impossible to imagine that states today cannot make use of another means than capital punishment to defend peoples’ lives from an unjust aggressor,” the pope said Oct. 23 in a meeting with representatives of the International Association of Penal Law.

Unfortunately, despite his pure intentions Pope Francis sounds a bit naïve. Many criminals continue to commit crimes not only behind bars, but direct crime activity that reaches outside the walls of prison. This is not a secret. This is a well known fact. He’s entitled to his opinion, just like anyone else. But Thank God our law makers are the ones who get to make these decisions for the safety of citizens. My conscience won’t let me support such a notion as to abolish the death penalty or life imprisonment when I know full well many criminals are still committing crimes while in jail even.

 

[Weejee]

Unfortunately, despite his pure intentions Pope Francis sounds a bit naïve. Many criminals continue to commit crimes not only behind bars, but direct crime activity that reaches outside the walls of prison. This is not a secret. This is a well known fact. He’s entitled to his opinion, just like anyone else. But Thank God our law makers are the ones who get to make these decisions for the safety of citizens. My conscience won’t let me support such a notion as to abolish the death penalty or life imprisonment when I know full well many criminals are still committing crimes while in jail even.

You said it!

 

[Weejee]

What ever happened to Pope Francis wanting to get this church to help the poor more. Focus, focus…

 

[Sy_Noe]

Incarceration, when used as a form of social rehabilitation is good for both society and the prisoner. The number of prisoners in America is not alarming, as long as no injustice is reflected in those statistics. As for the treatment of prisoners - I would much rather be incarcerated in America than in Russia or China!

As for my comment about Pope Francis’ progressive liberal views - I was referring not only to this proclamation about the death penalty and imprisonment (both of which are sanctioned in the CCC under the proper circumstances (i.e. the last resort in the preservation of the common good)) but also his views expressed at last week’s synod.

Given the Holy Father’s call to abolish the death penalty, can he now modify or do away with CCC 2267?

 

[Sy_Noe]

That this is the common perception doesn’t make it any the less untrue. A punishment is morally permissible when it is the just punishment for the crime. That is, when it is commensurate in severity with the severity of the crime, and the church has always held that this is true (at least) of capital punishment used for the crime of murder.
Rehabilitation, like protection and deterrence, is a secondary objective of punishment. It is important to understand that protection, despite what is implied in CCC 2267, is not the primary objective.

Ender

CCC 2267 currently states “the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically non-existent”. Not severity with severity or an eye for an eye.

 

[Sy_Noe]

This would mean the church has been wrong about the morality of capital punishment for nearly 2000 years. Is that really a conclusion you want to reach?

Could changing teaching on the death penalty be one of God’s surprises the Holy Father has talked about?

 

[Brandon_Cal]

I’ve waffled on the issue of capital punishment a lot over the many decades of my adult life. When exercising my more rational faculties I tend to side with abolition, and it’s usually when some heart aching story reaches the press about some figuratively less-than-human monster doing something so incredibly evil to one of society’s most vulnerable individuals that my emotional faculties take the wheel and demand the monster’s head on a pike. Once given enough time to cool down and reassess the situation my rational faculties usually (though not always) show me that what drove my desire for his execution was vengeance and not justice.

As a non-Catholic this is something that I’ve found quite attractive about Catholic social justice. Capital punishment is not in-and-of-itself immoral, but we must temper our execution of it (pun intended) based on what’s actually necessary to protect society at large. It seems to me that Catholic social justice has done a great job in identifying what ought to be the primary goal in sentencing: justice and protection. In other words, when capital punishment actually becomes punitive in nature it has lost its value as a social justice tool.

Even as someone who quite frequently waffles on capital punishment, I can very much respect this position, and it’s a quite compelling position. This all of course assumes that we actually have some kind of good alternative to capital punishment. One could well argue that we do have that alternative: imprisonment for life.

Now I’m being told, by none other than His Holiness himself, that life sentences may as well be death sentences? If that be the case then I’m to understand His Holiness as saying either:

• Life imprisonment and capital punishment are morally equivalent, and therefore one need not discriminate between the two in regards to morality; essentially making capital punishment the preferred method of justice since, with all else being equal, caging up a human being and stripping him of his dignity, while spending tax payers monies to feed and clothe him is far weightier than a humane execution.

Or

• Life imprisonment and capital punishment are morally equivalent, and because Catholic thought as of late has been such that capital punishment is deemed morally unnecessary at best, and actually immoral at worst (within societies that have adequate alternatives to such measures), moral societies ought neither execute their irredeemable criminals nor house them indefinitely in prison.

I very highly doubt the Holy Father had my first bullet point in mind, even though it’s a possible conclusion drawn from his indirect equivocation of capital punishment and life in prison. I very highly suspect that the Holy Father had my second bullet point in mind, which I believe is far more problematic. Life in prison has been the “alternative” that our so-called “humane society” has had at our dispense to negate the need for capital punishment. I have never heard of an opponent of capital punishment tell me that society has at its disposal alternatives thereto while simultaneously dismissing as equally evil the most obvious of alternatives!

Does Pope Francis provide us with further alternatives to both capital punishment and life in prison? Was he not quoted in the media for such alternatives? Unless the Holy Father has some magic pill up his sleeve to immediately remediate the imprisoned he’s essentially telling us that we ought not ever keep the most vile of offenders imprisoned for their natural life. It’s imperative for anyone making such a moral argument to offer a viable alternative to replace that which he wishes to see abolished. It’s all the more important that he does so when he’s the shepherd of 20% of the world and a head of state.

 

[LongingSoul]

I’ve waffled on the issue of capital punishment a lot over the many decades of my adult life. When exercising my more rational faculties I tend to side with abolition, and it’s usually when some heart aching story reaches the press about some figuratively less-than-human monster doing something so incredibly evil to one of society’s most vulnerable individuals that my emotional faculties take the wheel and demand the monster’s head on a pike. Once given enough time to cool down and reassess the situation my rational faculties usually (though not always) show me that what drove my desire for his execution was vengeance and not justice.

As a non-Catholic this is something that I’ve found quite attractive about Catholic social justice. Capital punishment is not in-and-of-itself immoral, but we must temper our execution of it (pun intended) based on what’s actually necessary to protect society at large. It seems to me that Catholic social justice has done a great job in identifying what ought to be the primary goal in sentencing: justice and protection. In other words, when capital punishment actually becomes punitive in nature it has lost its value as a social justice tool.

Even as someone who quite frequently waffles on capital punishment, I can very much respect this position, and it’s a quite compelling position. This all of course assumes that we actually have some kind of good alternative to capital punishment. One could well argue that we do have that alternative: imprisonment for life.

Now I’m being told, by none other than His Holiness himself, that life sentences may as well be death sentences? If that be the case then I’m to understand His Holiness as saying either:

• Life imprisonment and capital punishment are morally equivalent, and therefore one need not discriminate between the two in regards to morality; essentially making capital punishment the preferred method of justice since, with all else being equal, caging up a human being and stripping him of his dignity, while spending tax payers monies to feed and clothe him is far weightier than a humane execution.

Or

• Life imprisonment and capital punishment are morally equivalent, and because Catholic thought as of late has been such that capital punishment is deemed morally unnecessary at best, and actually immoral at worst (within societies that have adequate alternatives to such measures), moral societies ought neither execute their irredeemable criminals nor house them indefinitely in prison.

I very highly doubt the Holy Father had my first bullet point in mind, even though it’s a possible conclusion drawn from his indirect equivocation of capital punishment and life in prison. I very highly suspect that the Holy Father had my second bullet point in mind, which I believe is far more problematic. Life in prison has been the “alternative” that our so-called “humane society” has had at our dispense to negate the need for capital punishment. I have never heard of an opponent of capital punishment tell me that society has at its disposal alternatives thereto while simultaneously dismissing as equally evil the most obvious of alternatives!

Does Pope Francis provide us with further alternatives to both capital punishment and life in prison? Was he not quoted in the media for such alternatives? Unless the Holy Father has some magic pill up his sleeve to immediately remediate the imprisoned he’s essentially telling us that we ought not ever keep the most vile of offenders imprisoned for their natural life. It’s imperative for anyone making such a moral argument to offer a viable alternative to replace that which he wishes to see abolished. It’s all the more important that he does so when he’s the shepherd of 20% of the world and a head of state.

I think that someone earlier in the thread made an accurate evaluation of his intentions here…

My guess would be that the Pope is not necessarily opposed to lifelong imprisonment but to a life sentence without the possibility of parole. Such sentences preclude the possibility that the guilty person can be rehabilitated before it can be known whether that truly is the case. That is a sentence of vengeance rather than justice and vengeance belongs to God alone.

 

[Weejee]

How come when people make a parallel between humans and animals when it comes to issues like homosexuality and biological lust, some here say: “but we’re not animals!”
But now, in a situation like this, it’s okay to compare us to rabid dogs whom we shoot.

The pope is right.
I thought it was God who was supposed to decide who lives and dies?
It would be hubris for a human being to think they know if there is hope for a person’s social redemption or not.
And even if there isn’t hope, it doesn’t mean we have to KILL them.

.

Some of these creeps are so dysfunctional that they are not to be punished: like a rabid dogs, they have to be put down. I don’t think a person with a lot of experience in law, including criminal law, has hubris when they make a judgement it is their job to make.
Pope Francis should keep his nose out of criminal justice and go back to helping the poor. I don’t know what the heck has happened to him since his election, but he seems to think he’s an expert on everything.

And yeah, sometimes for the sake of innocent others, we DO have to kill them.

 

[Beryllos]

Some of these creeps are so dysfunctional that they are not to be punished: like a rabid dogs, they have to be put down. I don’t think a person with a lot of experience in law, including criminal law, has hubris when they make a judgement it is their job to make.
Pope Francis should keep his nose out of criminal justice and go back to helping the poor. I don’t know what the heck has happened to him since his election, but he seems to think he’s an expert on everything.

And yeah, sometimes for the sake of innocent others, we DO have to kill them.

As I always say, if the death penalty was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me…

 

[Brandon_Cal]

I think that someone earlier in the thread made an accurate evaluation of his intentions here…

And he provided nothing to substantiate his guess. His hunch is as valid as mine, and until the Holy Father provides further details, EmperorNapoleon’s understanding of the Holy Father’s words remain without corroboration. My concerns remain valid, and I still question exactly what the Holy Father is fighting against.

 

[anthonymarie]

If life in a cell is a “death sentence”, what does his holiness think of monasticism?

 

[Yeoman]

Some of these creeps are so dysfunctional that they are not to be punished: like a rabid dogs, they have to be put down. I don’t think a person with a lot of experience in law, including criminal law, has hubris when they make a judgement it is their job to make.
Pope Francis should keep his nose out of criminal justice and go back to helping the poor. I don’t know what the heck has happened to him since his election, but he seems to think he’s an expert on everything.

And yeah, sometimes for the sake of innocent others, we DO have to kill them.

As a person in a lot of experience in the law, but admittedly none in the criminal law, I think a commonly held Catholic view, which was more or less the one held by St. Pope John Paul II, was that the ability to retain the most dangerous prisoners had evolved to where the moral justification for the death penalty had ceased. That’s pretty evident if a person looks at the history of criminal punishment.

Originally, while there were jails, by and large society had very little ability to hold, feed, and care for prisoners, so there was not a good means of retaining the most violent offenders, or those with the most grievous offenses. So in those cases, you could look back and see where the death penalty was a type of self defense, or at least arguably so.

Now, this is far from true in western societies. We do have the ability to retain and hold safely nearly any prisoner indefinitely and in the US, we arguably hold far more than we should. Given that, the death penalty’s purpose of being self defense has passed, and it’s supposedly serving some other purpose, although what that is seems hard to adequately define. Anyhow, given that, while the Church’s position that the death penalty is a proper penalty under some circumstances, finds it self in an era when those circumstances virtually never arise…

 

[redbaron162]

As someone who has now spent several years in law enforcement I cannot agree to abolish life sentences. There are frankly to many sociopaths out there just waiting to get out so they can commit more crimes. Everyone keeps wanting to worry about the criminals rights but how about we start to worry about the victims rights a bit more?

Of course I would also say part of the reason so many repeat criminals keep going back to prison is directly related to how easy it is to do time in the US. If we made being in prison a horribe experience maybe more repeat ofenders would think twice about going back. As it is now most of the people I help put away act like they are going on vacation.

 

[CradleJourney]

I find it a bit interesting that we are several posts in on this subject and (as far as I could tell) no one has brought up mental illness.

My understanding is that there is, in fact, a large number of the mentally ill in prison. There have been many cases discussed publicly where family and friends KNEW the person was in need of serious help or they would harm themselves or others - yet our system is set up so that nothing can be done until they DO harm - and then frequently end up in the prison system where they get inadequate treatment.

I doubt Pope Francis is asking us to simply release violent offenders. But if we knew that locking them up forever was not an option - or at least shouldn’t be an option, perhaps more effort would go into creating effective treatment programs and care systems for the mentally ill and those who suffer from addictions. Programs requiring supervision and care and very tough boundaries - but not prison as such.