Pope Francis calls for abolishing death penalty and life imprisonment

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They put an end to the assertions that the death penalty is intrinsically evil which means its morality is determined by the relevant moral circumstances and the end or intention. It could in fact be an immoral act if the circumstances and intentions are evil.
This is true of everything, which is why your assertion that there is such a thing as an intrinsic good is incorrect.
So there shouldn’t be any cause for alarm when the State decides to drop the death penalty from its penal code or the Church instructs careful examination about the practical merits of its use.
Perhaps, but this is not a point at issue.
So in a society where conditions and beliefs have an obvious bias and the death penalty is seeming to serve a bias rather than justice…it can actually serve justice to show mercy.
You don’t resolve the problem of bias with mercy but with justice. Mercy would merely cover over an unjust system. The real solution is to make the system just by eliminating the bias.
Why do you imagine that this analogy only pertains to individual cases and not to general law?
You’re mixing concepts. Augustine did not object to capital punishment in general; he had a particular objection to its use in specific circumstances. The question is: which is the rule and which is the exception? Should a murderer not be executed unless there is an exceptional reason to do so, or should he be executed unless there is an exception reason not to do so? Augustine - and church tradition - has taken the second option.
The death penalty has been abolished from general law in many countries, precisely because the culture of death, promoted as womens rights or individual rights, makes good and evil confusing to the man on the street. Which are the weeds and which are the wheat?
I have not addressed these prudential arguments against capital punishment, but, as they are prudential, there are no moral choices involved. If I think capital punishment is harmful I will oppose it; if I think it is helpful I will support it. In both cases since I am choosing what I think is best under the circumstances, both positions are equally moral because there is simply no moral choice to be made.

Ender
 
That doesn’t answer Tombstones question. ‘Defending the imposition of the death penalty’ does not equate with it being commanded or mandatory. He asks where is it commanded that the death penalty must be applied as a binding doctrine?
How do you so consistently misunderstand what people say? That was not his question at all. He asked how we know when a teaching is doctrine.*In your answer you have equated the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Are you sure that these two concepts are exactly equal and that there is no difference between them? *
Ender
 
the Church and those who strongly oppose the use of the death penalty today, understand that while it is a sentence that can serve as a last resort in the absence of non lethal alternatives… it is detrimental to the common good and human communion rendering its use extrinsically immoral today.
The use of capital punishment even today is not immoral and no one’s opinion about the advisability of using it can make it so. The only argument you can make is that it is unwise to use it and that those who believe otherwise are (at worst) wrong and foolish, but being mistaken doesn’t equate to being sinful. There are no moral arguments against the use of capital punishment, only practical ones.

Ender
 
There are no moral arguments against the use of capital punishment, only practical ones.

Ender
You could be wrong and hang the wrong person. It was in the news that a woman in Iran had been hanged recently for stabbing her attempted rapist. However, it has turned out that there was another man in the apartment, and it was he who stabbed the rapist and not her. I don’t see how anyone can say that there is no moral argument against hanging this woman whose only crime was that she was a victim of rape. Hanging is a very painful thing, and IMHO it is morally wrong to hang innocent people who have been victims of crime.
 
You could be wrong and hang the wrong person.
If there is malfeasance involved in convicting and executing someone then surely an immoral action has been committed, but if it is merely an error, no matter how tragic, there is no sin involved. This situation is no different than a doctor misdiagnosing a patient.
Hanging is a very painful thing, and IMHO it is morally wrong to hang innocent people who have been victims of crime.
I never meant to suggest that every use of capital punishment is valid; obviously that is not true, but the fact that this occasion was a travesty says nothing about its use in other instances.

Ender
 
… if it is merely an error, no matter how tragic, there is no sin involved.
So there is no sin at all in hanging an innocent Iranian woman who was a victim of rape because there was an error on the part of the prosecuting attorney. I don’t think that the victim of a crime by a brutal rapist, the innocent Iranian woman who was hanged would agree with you on that. First they beat you and threaten to rape you, then, even though you are innocent, they make an error and put a rope around your neck and let you hang until you are dead. It doesn’t seem fair to me.
 
They put an end to the assertions that the death penalty is intrinsically evil which means its morality is determined by the relevant moral circumstances and the end or intention. It could in fact be an immoral act if the circumstances and intentions are evil.
I was answering to your error that the death penalty is a divine prescription. That it is not a punishment applied to serve human justice and the common good… but that it serves the supernatural purpose of divine retribution. You maintain that ‘retribution’ is the primary purpose of the death penalty even though the writings you quote on the subject don’t even claim this. Punishment for crime, like eating for nutrition, are principles of truth demanded by natural law and protected by divine law. However, imposing capital punishment, like taking pills, has a medicinal purpose within those human institutions. It’s a mistake to claim that the primary purpose of taking pills is ‘nutrition’ just as it is wrong to claim that the primary purpose of the death sentence is retribution.

Yet you continue to claim that it is, despite Aquinas statement that the punishments of this life are medicinal and Card. Dulles popular essay on capital punishment stressing that retribution as *one of *the for ends of punishment… has a symbolic place only since human beings are not God and have no supernatural powers to judge souls and effect divine redress. The States right to use capital punishment does not equate to say a Priests divine office in administering sacraments. I suggested that you were mistaking the States powers as having an intrinsic capacity to ‘loose and bind’ in this life… like the Church. It doesn’t.
So in a society where conditions and beliefs have an obvious bias and the death penalty is seeming to serve a bias rather than justice…it can actually serve justice to show mercy.
You don’t resolve the problem of bias with mercy but with justice. Mercy would merely cover over an unjust system. The real solution is to make the system just by eliminating the bias.

The idea of mercy merely ‘covering over’ rather than being intrinsically efficacious is promoted by other Christian branches but not Catholicism. Mercy renews and makes new relationships. That’s the whole brilliant meaning of mercy. We comprehend it’s true nature through parables like the Prodigal Son and the Unmerciful Servant. Human beings are called to emulate this in our lives, personal and public, with faith in the new relationships it creates. That doesn’t mean that punishment for sin can be let go of. Mercy would mean nothing at all if sin was not first recognised as sin.
Why do you imagine that this analogy only pertains to individual cases and not to general law?
You’re mixing concepts. Augustine did not object to capital punishment in general; he had a particular objection to its use in specific circumstances. The question is: which is the rule and which is the exception? Should a murderer not be executed unless there is an exceptional reason to do so, or should he be executed unless there is an exception reason not to do so? Augustine - and church tradition - has taken the second option.

The death penalty has always been addressed in the light of the fifth commandment. It hasn’t ever been a stand alone commandment. The first principle of the fifth commandment is to preserve and safeguard human life.

The fact that human beings have resorted to a death penalty apart from a relationship with God through the prophets and then through His Son, shows that natural law… through the medium of Creation and the natural elementals… permits a death sentence in relation to the human understanding of justice and the community good. Aquinas stated that divine law presupposes natural law so this shows that the extreme measure of death in administering human justice… exists prior to the divine commandments, as a permission of natural law.
I have not addressed these prudential arguments against capital punishment, but, as they are prudential, there are no moral choices involved. If I think capital punishment is harmful I will oppose it; if I think it is helpful I will support it. In both cases since I am choosing what I think is best under the circumstances, both positions are equally moral because there is simply no moral choice to be made.
Except you don’t seem to really believe that. You are having a problem accepting the Church’s statement…“the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.” That indicates that it is a medicinal human prescription rather than a divine prescription. You could say that “medicine does not exclude recourse to taking morphine if there is no other way of effectively treating pain” or you could say “morphine is a right of medical treatment in service of the dignity and wellbeing of the patient”. Both statements while seeming contradictory, are actually answering to different sorts of claims about the use of morphine, with the very same answer. Morphine is a special prescription which can be a great evil unless applied with absolute regard for the first principle of medicine. Preserving life and health.
 
The use of capital punishment even today is not immoral and no one’s opinion about the advisability of using it can make it so. The only argument you can make is that it is unwise to use it and that those who believe otherwise are (at worst) wrong and foolish, but being mistaken doesn’t equate to being sinful. There are no moral arguments against the use of capital punishment, only practical ones.

Ender
When men in their capacity as Church, take pains to comment forcefully and consistently against the use of the death penalty today… we can be fairly certain of where we are heading.

If the death penalty is not intrinsically evil then it is subject to the three fonts of morality. Every act chosen is either moral or immoral. I think that the Church in respecting the principle of ‘gradualism’, is continually urging the world to abolish the dp from penal law in a transitional way and will eventually finally arrive at the position where the death penalty , although not intrinsically evil, is not in keeping with the will of God through the teachings of Christ.
 
So there is no sin at all in hanging an innocent Iranian woman who was a victim of rape because there was an error on the part of the prosecuting attorney.
Disagree with me as you will, but at least disagree with something I’ve actually said. If you have to invent silliness and suggest it’s my position before you find something to dispute that should be the first clue that your comments are off target. Of course it was sinful to hang that woman. How is it possible you could actually believe I thought otherwise?

My point was actually rather different. How about if I cite Aquinas quoting Augustine? If something is accepted by the two greatest Catholic theologians of all time can we assume it is likely to be true?On the contrary, Augustine says to Publicola (Ep. xlvii): “When we do a thing for a good and lawful purpose, if thereby we unintentionally cause harm to anyone, it should by no means be imputed to us.” Now it sometimes happens by chance that a person is killed as a result of something done for a good purpose. Therefore the person who did it is not accounted guilty. (ST II-II 64,8)
Ender
 
Disagree with me as you will, but at least disagree with something I’ve actually said. If you have to invent silliness and suggest it’s my position before you find something to dispute that should be the first clue that your comments are off target. Of course it was sinful to hang that woman. How is it possible you could actually believe I thought otherwise?
Here’s what you said:
If there is malfeasance involved in convicting and executing someone then surely an immoral action has been committed, but** if it is merely an error, no matter how tragic, there is no sin involved.**
You said: " if it is merely an error, no matter how tragic, there is no sin involved."
So if it was an error on the part of the prosecution there was no sin involved according to this. But I see that you corrected this and now say that “Of course it was sinful to hang that woman.” Why would that be so, if it was merely an error declaring her to be guilty of murder? The prosecution did not have the evidence that another man was in the apartment at the time of the murder and that it was he who stabbed the rapist.
You appear to be contradicting yourself here.
In any case, there is always the question about error. How many people who have been convicted, have later had their conviction overturned by DNA evidence proving them guilty. How are you going to give them back the 5, 10 or 15 years they have served in jail? At least they have their lives. But with the hanging of this Iranian lady by an error in who committed the crime, there is no chance that she will get her life back. Here you have an innocent victim of a crime hanging from a noose and suffering for hours a horrible death because people believe that capital punishment is a moral thing to have and that: " if it is merely an error, no matter how tragic, there is no sin involved."
 
If something is accepted by the two greatest Catholic theologians of all time can we assume it is likely to be true?
Not necessarily. Didn’t St. Thomas believe a few things that we do not believe in today such as:
Slavery (under certain conditions)
Women are inferior to men
Limbo
Burning heretics at the stake?
 
Do you have examples of any? Beyond that, 2267 uses the term “common good” but not in the same context. It’s emphasis is on how “to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons.”
off the top of my head Aquinas, Liguori, and Augustine all appealed either to the common good or defense of society.

2267 isn’t using “defense” in the same limited way it has often been used when discussions involve more technical language.
No, the message is not the same as the descriptions of what constituted traditional church teaching is different.
Pope St. John Paul II disagrees in his Apostolic Letter Laetamur Magnopere:

These conclusions, insofar as they allow for a better expression of the Catechism’s contents regarding the deposit of the Catholic faith, or enable certain truths of this faith to be formulated in a way more suited to the requirements of contemporary catechetical instruction, have been approved by me and thus have been incorporated into this Latin typical edition. Therefore it faithfully repeats the doctrinal content which I officially presented to the Church and to the world in December 1992. (bold mine)
 
You said: " if it is merely an error, no matter how tragic, there is no sin involved."
So if it was an error on the part of the prosecution there was no sin involved according to this. But I see that you corrected this and now say that “Of course it was sinful to hang that woman.”
You need to make up your mind how you’re going to portray the situation of the Iranian woman and not change it based on my response.

If she was obviously innocent of any crime then hanging her was sinful. If she was convicted erroneously but in good faith then it was tragic but not sinful. Pick one.

Ender
 
Not necessarily. Didn’t St. Thomas believe a few things that we do not believe in today such as:
Slavery (under certain conditions)
Women are inferior to men
Limbo
Burning heretics at the stake?
The argument that “they weren’t always right so we can ignore everything they said” is pretty flimsy. As Doctors of the Church they deserve the benefit of the doubt. That is, they should be presumed right unless the church has deemed otherwise.

Ender
 
off the top of my head Aquinas, Liguori, and Augustine all appealed either to the common good or defense of society.
This is both inadequate and irrelevant. I asked for specific citations to support your specific claim that "There are many statements that say the death penalty must (or must not) be used to defend the common good."
2267 isn’t using “defense” in the same limited way it has often been used when discussions involve more technical language.
It is pretty clear how most people have interpreted these passages, and it has nothing to do with the overall common good.
…to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.
…to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons…
…to effectively repress crime…
Therefore it faithfully repeats the doctrinal content which I officially presented to the Church and to the world in December 1992.(JPII)
Except in the case of the definition of the Traditional teaching on capital punishment where the two versions are strikingly different.

Ender
 
The argument that “they weren’t always right so we can ignore everything they said” is pretty flimsy. As Doctors of the Church they deserve the benefit of the doubt. That is, they should be presumed right unless the church has deemed otherwise.

Ender
The claim that is being made is that if they were wrong on other issues, it is possible that they were wrong on this particular issue also.
No one argued what you put in quotes. Your method of argfumentation as illustrated in the first sentence of your post is called the fallacy of a straw man: you put something in quotes that no one has ever said and then you say that this argument is pretty flimsy. You are knocking down the strawman statement: “they weren’t always right so we can ignore everything they said”. Who ever said that, except for you?
 
When someone is sentenced to jail, there is always the chance that he was wrongly convicted and that he was totally innocent of the crime. This has been proven many times as innocent people who have been wrongly convicted are exonerated after spending years in prison. But what if the person who was executed was innocent of the crime for which he was accused? What does the Bible say about that? Holy Scriptures tells us that God hates the hand that sheds innocent blood and that this is an abomination to Him. By allowing capital punishment, there is always the possibility that you have killed an innocent man and in Proverbs 6: 16-19, we learn
“These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.”
 
It’s a pretty simple argument, really.

Capital punishment is NOT an intrinsic evil.

The Catholic Church has NEVER condemned the use of capital punishment by the state.

That being said, you can argue until you’re blue in the face whether or not capital punishment SHOULD be used in modern society. Whatever side you’re on, your opinions are just that…opinions. The Catholic Church holds no dogmatic view of the issue.

Carry on.
 
When someone is sentenced to jail, there is always the chance that he was wrongly convicted and that he was totally innocent of the crime. This has been proven many times as innocent people who have been wrongly convicted are exonerated after spending years in prison. But what if the person who was executed was innocent of the crime for which he was accused? What does the Bible say about that? Holy Scriptures tells us that God hates the hand that sheds innocent blood and that this is an abomination to Him. By allowing capital punishment, there is always the possibility that you have killed an innocent man and in Proverbs 6: 16-19, we learn
“These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.”
I generally agree with you on the DP and Pope Francis calling for the abolishment of it is not unusual at all. What I am scratching my head about is the seeming blanket statement on life imprisonment. Are there cases where life is cruel and wrong? Sure. But there are times when it is vitally necessary for the safe preservation of society.
 
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