Pope Francis calls for abolishing death penalty and life imprisonment

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Let’s be very clear about what is being discussed: I am (in this instance) referring solely to the explanations of the traditional teaching of the church on capital punishment as expressed in the 1992 and 1997 versions of the catechism. Regarding the two explanations, they are quite different as the 1992 version simply does not contain the caveat limiting the use of capital punishment to cases where it is necessary to safeguard the public. Not only does that restriction not appear in the 1992 edition, it does not appear anywhere (that I have found) in the entire history of the church. If that really is the traditional teaching then surely there should be some evidence somewhere to support the claim. There is in fact none.

There are statements (e.g. Trent) where protection is recognized as a benefit of capital punishment, but nowhere is it alleged that this is a requirement for its use.
Way back in the middle ages Thomas Aquinas said “All who sin mortally are deserving of eternal death, as regards future retribution, which is in accordance with the truth of the divine judgment. But the punishments of this life are more of a medicinal character; wherefore the punishment of death is inflicted on those sins alone which conduce to the grave undoing of others.”

Cardinal Dulles reiterates this in saying “Retribution by the State has its limits because the State, unlike God, enjoys neither omniscience nor omnipotence. According to Christian faith, God “will render to every man according to his works” at the final judgment (Romans 2:6; cf. Matthew 16:27). Retribution by the State can only be a symbolic anticipation of God’s perfect justice.”

When you speak of ‘retribution’ in human justice it can only refer to redressing disorder to the common good and the common good is determined by a ‘mean’ involving the good of individuals and society. For us, retribution cannot be effected by the commandment of God through the medium of a prophet. That was the God of the OT’s way. We, the Easter people, are told that the only way to the Father is through the Son. Our measure of human justice comes primarily from charity and the relationship of one man to another. To continually evoke the spirit of the Old Testament in order to negate the teachings of the New… is to effectively deny Christ.

The only difference in the Catechisms is a language difference in more fully expressing Truth in the light of new understandings regarding the dignity of man made in Gods image and new capacities to safeguard society and the common good in non lethal ways.
 
I can’t account for it, but the fact that I can’t explain it doesn’t change the fact that the traditional teaching of the church on capital punishment is accurately defined only in the 1992 version, not the 1997 version.

Ender
Fact? You call your opinion that the current catechism does not give accurate church doctrine a fact?
 
Originally Posted by Ender
I can’t account for it, but the fact that I can’t explain it doesn’t change the fact that the traditional teaching of the church on capital punishment is accurately defined only in the 1992 version, not the 1997 version.
That’s always Enders base line “The fact that I can’t explain it, means the new Catechism is wrong”. “The fact that others find no contradiction means that they are too ignorant or stupid to see that the Catechism is wrong”.
 
Fact? You call your opinion that the current catechism does not give accurate church doctrine a fact?
I call it a fact that these descriptions are different.The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.

*The traditional teaching of the church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the death penalty. *
These are two descriptions of the same thing: the traditional teaching of the church, and there is absolutely no mention or allusion in the second version to the caveat (in blue) contained in the first version. It is incomprehensible to me how anyone can assert that these statements are essentially the same.

Ender
 
When you speak of ‘retribution’ in human justice it can only refer to redressing disorder to the common good…
Actually, the meaning of “redressing the disorder” is a bit more specific than that.the act of sin makes man deserving of punishment, in so far as he transgresses* the order of Divine justice**, to which he cannot return except he pay some sort of penal compensation, which restores him to the equality of justice* (Aquinas ST I-II 87,6)

*The third justifying purpose for punishment is retribution or the restoration of the order of justice which has been violated by the action of the criminal. *(USCCB)
For us, retribution cannot be effected by the commandment of God through the medium of a prophet. That was the God of the OT’s way. We, the Easter people, are told that the only way to the Father is through the Son. Our measure of human justice comes primarily from charity and the relationship of one man to another. To continually evoke the spirit of the Old Testament in order to negate the teachings of the New… is to effectively deny Christ.
The way you put it we are faced with the choice of denying the New Testament Christ or the Old Testament God, since you insist they said contradictory things. All you have done is to put your own gloss on what Christ taught while ignoring the plain words of God himself.

Ender
 
I call it a fact that these descriptions are different.
**
These are two descriptions of the same thing: the traditional teaching of the church, and there is absolutely no mention or allusion in the second version to the caveat (in blue) contained in the first version. It is incomprehensible to me how anyone can assert that these statements are essentially the same.

Ender
I did not say they are the same. I said they are not contradictory. Both are Church doctrine.
 
That’s always Enders base line “The fact that I can’t explain it, means the new Catechism is wrong”. “The fact that others find no contradiction means that they are too ignorant or stupid to see that the Catechism is wrong”.
Under what Christian principle do you justify comments like this?

Ender
 
Actually, the meaning of “redressing the disorder” is a bit more specific than that.the act of sin makes man deserving of punishment, in so far as he transgresses* the order of Divine justice***, to which he cannot return except he pay some sort of penal compensation, which restores him to the equality of justice (Aquinas ST I-II 87,6)
You’ve taken great pains in the past to separate the individuals obligations and responses in relation to God and others regarding sin and punishment… from the States obligations and responses to crime and punishment. Yet this is not what you are doing here. In relation to the States handling of crime Aquinas says * “All who sin mortally are deserving of eternal death, as regards future retribution, which is in accordance with the truth of the divine judgment. But the punishments of this life are more of a medicinal character; wherefore the punishment of death is inflicted on those sins alone which conduce to the grave undoing of others.”*

The punishments of this life must reflect a redress of the grave undoing of others.
The third justifying purpose for punishment is retribution or the restoration of the order of justice which has been violated by the action of the criminal. (USCCB)
I have noticed you have a problem with your cut and paste functions whereby they give a truncated version of the Churchs teachings which belie its position. Don’t worry, I’ll help you out when I notice your computer problem.

“The third justifying purpose for punishment is retribution or the restoration of the order of justice which has been violated by the action of the criminal. We grant that the need for retribution does indeed justify punishment. For the practice of punishment both presupposes a previous transgression against the law and involves the involuntary deprivation of certain goods. But we maintain that this need does not require nor does it justify taking the life of the criminal, even in cases of murder. We must not remain unmindful of the example of Jesus who urges upon us a teaching of forbearance in the face of evil (Matthew 5:38-42) and forgiveness of injuries (Matthew 18:21-35). It is morally unsatisfactory and socially destructive for criminals to go unpunished, but the forms and limits of punishment must be determined by moral objectives which go beyond the mere inflicting of injury on the guilty. Thus we would regard it as barbarous and inhumane for a criminal who had tortured or maimed a victim to be tortured or maimed in return. Such a punishment might satisfy certain vindictive desires that we or the victim might feel, but the satisfaction of such desires is not and cannot be an objective of a humane and Christian approach to punishment. We believe that the forms of punishment must be determined with a view to the protection of society and its members and to the reformation of the criminal and his reintegration into society (which may not be possible in certain cases). This position accords with the general norm for punishment proposed by St. Thomas Aquinas when he wrote: "In this life, however, penalties are not sought for their own sake, because this is not the era of retribution; rather, they are meant to be corrective by being conducive either to the reform of the sinner or the good of society, which becomes more peaceful through the punishment of sinners.” (2)

We believe that in the conditions of contemporary American society, the legitimate purposes of punishment do not justify the imposition of the death penalty. Furthermore, we believe that there are serious considerations which should prompt Christians and all Americans to support the abolition of capital punishment. Some of these reasons have to do with evils that are present in the practice of capital punishment itself, while others involve important values that would be promoted by abolition of this practice."
The way you put it we are faced with the choice of denying the New Testament Christ or the Old Testament God, since you insist they said contradictory things. All you have done is to put your own gloss on what Christ taught while ignoring the plain words of God himself.
“…the New Law is compared to the Old as the perfect to the imperfect. Now everything perfect fulfils that which is lacking in the imperfect. And accordingly the New Law fulfils the Old by supplying that which was lacking in the Old Law.” - Aquinas

The Old Testament by nature of human evolution and the coming of Christ, was lacking in some ways which are now being supplied. That will continue to develop as time marches on. That’s how everything in life works.
 
I did not say they are the same. I said they are not contradictory.
It is not a question of whether they are contradictory but whether they are both accurate. Since they are different, yet purport to define the same thing, the issue is clear: which is the more accurate explanation? Since there is nothing I (or anyone else) have found that contains the restriction of the 1997 version it seems evident that it is inaccurate.
Both are Church doctrine.
I don’t think they are. If the assertion in the 1997 version is inaccurate is true then it can hardly be doctrine.

Ender
 
I have noticed you have a problem with your cut and paste functions whereby they give a truncated version of the Churchs teachings which belie its position.
Your confusion stems from an inability to focus on one point at a time. When I cite something I include only the parts relevant to the specific point being discussed. In the post you responded to it was the meaning of the phrase “redressing the disorder” in relation to the common good. Nothing in your voluminous citation addressed that point. It might be relevant to another topic, but it is irrelevant to this one.
The Old Testament by nature of human evolution and the coming of Christ, was lacking in some ways which are now being supplied.
Are you suggesting that Christ repudiated what God had said?
That will continue to develop as time marches on. That’s how everything in life works.
Not exactly.*“Solidarity with the past is the very condition of authentic development.” *(Cardinal Dulles)
Ender
 
It is not a question of whether they are contradictory but whether they are both accurate. Since they are different, yet purport to define the same thing, the issue is clear: which is the more accurate explanation? Since there is nothing I (or anyone else) have found that contains the restriction of the 1997 version it seems evident that it is inaccurate.
I don’t think they are. If the assertion in the 1997 version is inaccurate is true then it can hardly be doctrine.

Ender
So you don’t accept the 1997 catechism of the Catholic Church as official magisterial teaching?
 
So you don’t accept the 1997 catechism of the Catholic Church as official magisterial teaching?
Why not deal with the words as I write them instead of distorting my comments to mean something I have neither said nor implied? Yes, the 1997 catechism is official magisterial teaching. Can we move on now to what I’ve actually said?

Section 2267 contains prudential judgments. Those judgments are not magisterial teachings and do not require our assent. Beyond that, it contains an assertion that is not substantiated, and appears factually incorrect.

You disagree. Fine, all you have to do is find something to support the assertion made in 2267. It’s that simple. If the traditional teaching is as proclaimed in 2267 then it should be easy to find examples of previous teachings that support it. Where are they?

I have shown that it is not supported by the 1992 version of the catechism. I’ll also mention that the claim is also not supported by the catechism of Pius X (1905), the Baltimore Catechism (1891), the Douay Catechism (1649), the catechism of Robert Bellarmine (1598), the catechism of Trent (1566), or the catechism of St. Thomas (c 1260). The Baltimore Catechism comes closest but even this falls short.

You have made arguments as to why the assertion of 2267 *ought *to be right, but you have provided no argument whatever to suggest that it *is *right.

Ender
 
Why not deal with the words as I write them instead of distorting my comments to mean something I have neither said nor implied? Yes, the 1997 catechism is official magisterial teaching. Can we move on now to what I’ve actually said?

Section 2267 contains prudential judgments. Those judgments are not magisterial teachings and do not require our assent. Beyond that, it contains an assertion that is not substantiated, and appears factually incorrect.

You disagree. Fine, all you have to do is find something to support the assertion made in 2267. It’s that simple. If the traditional teaching is as proclaimed in 2267 then it should be easy to find examples of previous teachings that support it. Where are they?

I have shown that it is not supported by the 1992 version of the catechism. I’ll also mention that the claim is also not supported by the catechism of Pius X (1905), the Baltimore Catechism (1891), the Douay Catechism (1649), the catechism of Robert Bellarmine (1598), the catechism of Trent (1566), or the catechism of St. Thomas (c 1260). The Baltimore Catechism comes closest but even this falls short.

You have made arguments as to why the assertion of 2267 *ought *to be right, but you have provided no argument whatever to suggest that it *is *right.

Ender
The traditional teaching has changed in this, just as it has changed in other areas, for example, having clowns or dragons at Catholic liturgical services.
 
The traditional teaching has changed in this, just as it has changed in other areas, for example, having clowns or dragons at Catholic liturgical services.
Again, this misses the point. We may be able to change what something is but we certainly can’t change what it was. Both of the statements we’re discussing profess to define the same thing; what something was in the past. There may indeed be a new teaching but there cannot be different versions of what the old teaching was. Since the definitions are different the question is: which is correct? Demonstrably, it is not the 1997 version.

Ender
 
Ender;12467293 said:
Originally Posted by LongingSoul
When you speak of ‘retribution’ in human justice it can only refer to redressing disorder to the common good…

Actually, the meaning of “redressing the disorder” is a bit more specific than that.the act of sin makes man deserving of punishment, in so far as he transgresses* the order of Divine justice***, to which he cannot return except he pay some sort of penal compensation, which restores him to the equality of justice (Aquinas ST I-II 87,6)

The third justifying purpose for punishment is retribution or the restoration of the order of justice which has been violated by the action of the criminal. (USCCB)

EnderYour confusion stems from an inability to focus on one point at a time. When I cite something I include only the parts relevant to the specific point being discussed. In the post you responded to it was the meaning of the phrase “redressing the disorder” in relation to the common good. Nothing in your voluminous citation addressed that point. It might be relevant to another topic, but it is irrelevant to this one.

You countered my statement that “redressing the disorder” referred to redressing the disorder to the common good in human justice by posting a statement by the USCCB to prove that punishment in this life were in fact redressing the divine order… when in fact the statement by the USCCB was actually stressing that “redressing the disorder” was ***not ***an act of retribution… You need to re read the statement with your blinkers off.

We believe that the forms of punishment must be determined with a view to the protection of society and its members and to the reformation of the criminal and his reintegration into society (which may not be possible in certain cases). This position accords with the general norm for punishment proposed by St. Thomas Aquinas when he wrote: "In this life, however, penalties are not sought for their own sake, because this is not the era of retribution; rather, they are meant to be corrective by being conducive either to the reform of the sinner or the good of society, which becomes more peaceful through the punishment of sinners.”

How does that prove your point that punishments are retributive and redress the divine order?
 
You countered my statement that “redressing the disorder” referred to redressing the disorder to the common good in human justice by posting a statement by the USCCB to prove that punishment in this life were in fact redressing the divine order… when in fact the statement by the USCCB was actually stressing that “redressing the disorder” was ***not ***an act of retribution… You need to re read the statement with your blinkers off.
You need to read more carefully. First, the statement I cited from the USCCB said nothing about the divine order but *the order of justice. *I even highlighted the phrase for you and you still got it wrong. Second, it was Aquinas who used the phrase “divine order”, although not as you rewrote it. The actual phrase (as I, um, highlighted) was the order of divine justice. The point that should have been evident was that “redressing the disorder” does not refer to the mere maintenance of law and order in the streets but refers rather to justice itself. Whether the USCCB considers retribution the solution to the disorder of justice is immaterial to the point. We (or at least I) have been addressing the meaning of the word “order” in the phrase “redressing the disorder.”
How does that prove your point that punishments are retributive and redress the divine order?
It is not “my” point, it is what the church teaches.*A penalty is the reaction required by law and justice in response to a fault: penalty and fault are action and reaction. Order violated by a culpable act demands the reintegration and re-establishment of the disturbed equilibrium *(Pius XII)
Ender
 
John Paul 2 says otherwise
I don’t think he meant to repudiate 2000 years of church teaching on the subject. It seems more reasonable to understand his opposition to be similar to Augustine’s; that is, they opposed its use in the specific context of their times. Their objections were not doctrinal.

Ender
 
You need to read more carefully. First, the statement I cited from the USCCB said nothing about the divine order but *the order of justice. *I even highlighted the phrase for you and you still got it wrong. Second, it was Aquinas who used the phrase “divine order”, although not as you rewrote it. The actual phrase (as I, um, highlighted) was the order of divine justice. The point that should have been evident was that “redressing the disorder” does not refer to the mere maintenance of law and order in the streets but refers rather to justice itself. Whether the USCCB considers retribution the solution to the disorder of justice is immaterial to the point. We (or at least I) have been addressing the meaning of the word “order” in the phrase “redressing the disorder.”
I’m actually reminded of the Abbot and Costello comedy skit “Who’s on first” as I read your replies these days. :eek:

I didn’t say that redressing the disorder was “the mere maintenance of law and order in the streets”. Come on. A bit of honesty in quoting me here please. I said that redressing the disorder equated with “the common good”. Law and order was maintained in Communist Russia or Iran today by merely applying strict party or ‘divine’ rules but where’s the justice?

Bishop Karol Wojtyla of Krakow (StJPII) wrote for Vatican II when describing the common good as “not simply the sum total of particular interests; rather it involves an assessment and integration of those interests on the basis of a balanced hierarchy of values; ultimately, it demands a correct understanding of the dignity and the rights of the person” ( Centesimus Annus , 47). I’m going to post the full text of Thomas Aquinas on the Ends of the law to prevent your bad habit of manipulating the context!

"On the contrary, Isidore says (Etym. v, 21) that "laws are enacted for no private profit, but for the common benefit of the citizens."

I answer that, As stated above (Article 1), the law belongs to that which is a principle of human acts, because it is their rule and measure. Now as reason is a principle of human acts, so in reason itself there is something which is the principle in respect of all the rest: wherefore to this principle chiefly and mainly law must needs be referred. Now the first principle in practical matters, which are the object of the practical reason, is the last end: and the last end of human life is bliss or happiness, as stated above (2, 7; 3, 1). **Consequently the law must needs regard principally the relationship to happiness. **Moreover, since every part is ordained to the whole, as imperfect to perfect; and since one man is a part of the perfect community, the law must needs regard properly the relationship to universal happiness. Wherefore the Philosopher, in the above definition of legal matters mentions both happiness and the body politic: for he says (Ethic. v, 1) that we call those legal matters “just, which are adapted to produce and preserve happiness and its parts for the body politic”: since the state is a perfect community, as he says in Polit. i, 1.

Now in every genus, that which belongs to it chiefly is the principle of the others, and the others belong to that genus in subordination to that thing: thus fire, which is chief among hot things, is the cause of heat in mixed bodies, and these are said to be hot in so far as they have a share of fire. Consequently, since the law is chiefly ordained to the common good, any other precept in regard to some individual work, must needs be devoid of the nature of a law, save in so far as it regards the common good. Therefore every law is ordained to the common good.

Reply to Objection 1. A command denotes an application of a law to matters regulated by the law. Now the order to the common good, at which the law aims, is applicable to particular ends. And in this way commands are given even concerning particular matters.

Reply to Objection 2. Actions are indeed concerned with particular matters: but those particular matters are referable to the common good, not as to a common genus or species, but as to a common final cause, according as the common good is said to be the common end.

Reply to Objection 3. Just as nothing stands firm with regard to the speculative reason except that which is traced back to the first indemonstrable principles, so nothing stands firm with regard to the practical reason, unless it be directed to the last end which is the common good: and whatever stands to reason in this sense, has the nature of a law."

This is what redressing the disorder means to human justice.
 
Again, this misses the point. We may be able to change what something is but we certainly can’t change what it was.
Other teachings have changed such as for example, the teaching on torture. If the teaching on torture has changed, then I don’t see why the teaching on capital punishment could not change. You have cited the 1992 and the 1997 CCC and said that there were differences in the presentation on the morality of capital punishment.
 
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