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faithsmind
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The Roman Empire flourished, but then it fell once it took its currency off of the gold standard in order to fund the costs of its expanding conquests.
Pope Francis claims global economy is close to collapse and describes youth unemployment rates as an ‘atrocity’ in damning message
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Bubba_Switzler
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It would not be any great challenge to draw up a list of ways in which the current “system” falls short of capitalistic ideals. Since at least the 1930s, it has been conventional wisdom to describe western economies as “mixed” economies, one part capitalism, one part socialism, and the ballance has been tipping away from capitalism over that time.
Still, I am not very impressed with papal criticisms of “the system”, especially a pope who prides himself on being pastoral. How does blaming youth unemployment on systemic greed accomplish anything useful?
If I am thinking about commiting, say, adultery, or have done so, pastoral counsel would obvioulsy have great personal value. But is Pope Francis really trying to position himself as the pastor to central bankers? Very strange.
Honestly, I don’t think the pope understands capitalism. Argentina has been a mess for almost a century. Juan Peron came to power in 1946 and it’s been downhill ever since. Argentina is, once again, flirting with bankruptcy. That’s his experience with capitalism.
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faithsmind
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I would say he has his finger on the pulse of global economics for the very reason of his experiences with the financial situation in Argentina. He is preaching to central bankers because he is aware of their power over the welfare of the entire globe. This is a very pastoral action.
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Bubba_Switzler
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I would have more confidence in your theory if he were drawing the connections you imply. But Argentina is not a mess because of the actions of its central bank. Juan Peron was not a banker. Blaming youth unemployment on greed was absurd.
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edwest2
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That’s the only reliable way to see what’s happening. Who benefits? How? To what End?
sipri.org/media/pressreleases/2014/top100_january2014
Young people can join the military as they often do. Not saying they should but valuable job skills can be learned.
And what about R&D?
nsf.gov/statistics/seind14/index.cfm/chapter-4
Meanwhile, on Wall Street:
reuters.com/article/2014/06/18/us-markets-stocks-idUSKBN0ES1AC20140618
Peace,
Ed
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faithsmind
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OK. Fair enough. But to clarify, he is blaming impending financial collapse of the world on greed, pointing to youth unemployment as a foreboding of that. I think a pope would have a broader vision than just an assessment based on his local experiences. Maybe not, though.
What is your opinion on the future of the world economy, in plain, concise terms?
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Bubba_Switzler
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That doesn’t really help. Whether the connection is direct or indirect, the causal claim is essentially the same.
It strikes me as very peculiar that he doesn’t want to judge (fill in the blank) but does seem eager to blame someone for the impending financial collapse. Honestly, i think it would be useful to declare a moratorium on attributing problems to greed and look at all the more innocent explanations first. There is a genuine economic debate about what central banks ought to be doing and doing nothing is the minority view.
There is a 100% probability of a stock market crash in the future. I think Europe is in real trouble and Japan also. China and the US will suffer setbacks too. But distinguishing what are normal economic ups and downs from debilitating social pathologies is never easy. The most obvious social problem is demographic suicide and the church has much wisdom to offer on that subject. But youth unemployment is an “atrocity” in its own category and I’ve yet to see any comparable wisdom on that.
ralfyman
New member
Exactly.
Pope Francis is not arguing that shareholders aren’t human beings. It’s that they see their profits as more important than the youth.
Obviously not. There is a lot of evidence that proves his argument.
Pope Francis is not referring to “every economic and social problem.”
ralfyman
New member
Again, the Roman Empire did not exist during the last two centuries.
ralfyman
New member
It is definitely not a flawed analysis. See data from the BIS and others for details.
Also, I don’t think Pope Francis is referring to “every shortcoming.”
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GEddie
Guest
Never mind the Romans.
Do you really think social inequality is worse now than in 1814, when most Western nations, including to a significant extent, the USA, had formally stratified societies?
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ralfyman
New member
My understanding is that the current global economy actually fulfills capitalist ideals. The problem is that incredible levels of financial speculation is causing one crisis after another. The source is between $600 trillion to over a quadrillion dollars in notional value of unregulated derivatives.
Also, I don’t think Pope Francis is giving an analysis of the system. Rather, he is arguing that the rich and even governments are not taking care of the youth in terms of employment. The source of his arguments involve careful analysis of the problem, as reported by groups ranging from the BIS to the IMF.
There is nothing strange about his arguments, as the Catholic Church has always called for reforms and social justice. See, for example, No. 2425 in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm
and encyclicals like “Rerum Novarum”:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rerum_Novarum
Finally, I think his experiences in Argentina are notable, as that is similar to what happened in many countries which make up the bulk of the world’s population.
ralfyman
New member
I think the cause is not population aging but three predicaments amplifying each other:
First, incredible levels of debt and exposure to financial risks, as seen in $600 trillion to over a quadrillion dollars (notional value) in unregulated derivatives. Only a fraction of that was needed to bring the world to its knees in 2008, and there are reports that another global financial crisis is brewing for the same reason. Meanwhile, the rich has become richer thanks to bailouts while unemployment and austerity measures begin to dominate among various economies.
Second, crude oil production has reached a peak, and more expensive shale oil is now being used. That has to meet growing resource demand from a growing global middle class. Meanwhile, capital expenditures for the oil companies has doubled in exchange for a marginal increase in production, while the global economy can barely tolerate high oil prices. As it is, the price has tripled, leading to high prices for food and other commodities.
Third, environmental damage on a significant scale coupled with the effects of global warming are now taking their toll on human communities and economies. There have been reports of billions in dollars lost due to this as well as human suffering and deaths due to extreme weather conditions plus pollution.
The call for a moratorium on unrestricted financial risk-taking is exactly what Pope Francis wants, but I think there are also calls for conserving resources, fostering sustainability, and so forth. Obviously, governments will have to support these, but how can they if they are more interested in supporting the financial elite, as seen in trillions of dollars in bailouts, at the public’s expense, and used for more financial risk-taking?
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Bubba_Switzler
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I am absolutely willing to give Pope Francis the benefit of the doubt. But the phrase does, in fact, dehumanize shareholders. If one were to honestly recognize the humanity of shareholders one would formulate it as follows:
[Human] Managers see [human] shareholders [who employ them] as more important than the [human] youth [who must be paid more than they are worth].
I’m not saying that everyone who uses a dishonest phrase has ill intent, but it’s hard to escape that conclusion once the dishonesty of the phrase has been exposed.
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Bubba_Switzler
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Again, focusing on the last two centuries is myopic. Human history spans millennia. Taking the fulll view of human history reveals the absurdity of the greed explanation of youth unemployment, among other things. (And the Roman Empire is within the institutional memory of the Catholic Church which is headquartered in Rome.)
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Bubba_Switzler
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This is, quite simply, wrong. Of course, it will depend on what one means by “capitalism” but, as I noted previously, the longstanding description that has actually been given for almost a century is “mixed economy”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy
Ecoomic historians generally mark the end of WWI as the turning point though different countries experienced it differently.
As we discussed earlier, risk is inherent to life and to capitalism. Some attribute this wrongly to central banking but crises are not new.
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Bubba_Switzler
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I doubt the pope is being that speficic but, in any case, it will not work. After the 2008 financial crisis governments clamped down on banks. The result is the growth of a new industry generally termed “shadow banking”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_banking_system
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faithsmind
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Trying to learn, here. What is your speculation for this strange phenomenon of the huge amount of unemployed youth?
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Bubba_Switzler
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In the simplest terms: compassion. Compassion is the cause of youth unemployment.
Earlier in the thread I cited three main causes: minimum wage, welfare, and youth entitlement. The first two of these are typically justified on the basis of compassion and both are endorsed by the Catholic Church.
So not only is Pope Francis wrong about greed being the cause of youth unemployment, and compassion the solution, he has it exactly backwards. The Catholic Church is a major contributor to the ‘atrocity’ of youth unemployment.
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stinkcat_14
Guest
How does the Catholic Church contribute to youth unemployment?
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