Pope Francis claims global economy is close to collapse and describes youth unemployment rates as an ‘atrocity’ in damning message

[seekerz]

Disproportionate youth unemployement is what is new, i.e. youth experiencing worse unemployment than others as opposed to better or same. Good luck finding any articles on high youth unemployment from more than 20 years ago. Greed is unchanged, as I noted. Nobody has yet offered any example of greed, no matter how you twist that term, that is without historical parallel.

Your premise that greed is unchanged is faulty and I have pointed out to you that more and more is being concentrated in the hands of less and less who go further and further to limit the taxes they pay.

You cannot simply get away with the statement that greed has not increased. Greed is a matter of morality. You are not more qualified than the Pope to determine its increase or decrease.

So all we have is an elaborate argument on your part, based on the entirely spurious premise that greed is unchanged. Kinda like a mansion built on the sand, really.

 

[estesbob]

It boils down to one question. Is man smarter than yeast? Time will tell.

We’ll that out go get a rise out of people

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Your premise that greed is unchanged is faulty and I have pointed out to you that more and more is being concentrated in the hands of less and less who go further and further to limit the taxes they pay.

You cannot simply get away with the statement that greed has not increased. Greed is a matter of morality. You are not more qualified than the Pope to determine its increase or decrease.

So all we have is an elaborate argument on your part, based on the entirely spurious premise that greed is unchanged. Kinda like a mansion built on the sand, really.

Greed is the foundation to the argument. If it is sandy, it is so for both the pope and I. The pope, as far as I know, has not asserted that greed has increased. There is no evidence that he is making that claim.

If we are going to treat this claim seriously the we must begin with an agreed upon definition of greed and then proceed to determine how it can be measured. A number of people, you included, offered examples of things that you thought had changed (e.g. wealth concentration) but I then pointed out why they were not new with historical examples. And, in any case, these are not agreed definitions of greed.

As far as I can tell, nobody is arguing that youth unemployment is not new, everyone seems to accept that we are experiencing something unique in history. At least one person disputed that youth unemployment is a tragedy, but I argued that the pope is right to call it one.

I’m perfectly willing to approach this more methodically if others are.

 

[edwest2]

There are many hypothesizes of why unemployment has or is becoming intractable. How about the one in which we have reached peak jobs.

**It’s Definitive: We’ve Reached Peak Jobs **

The U.S. has reached Peak Jobs–at least the sort that can support a household. There has long been a quasi-magical belief in the U.S. that capitalism’s intrinsic dynamic of creative destruction will always create more jobs than it destroys. The evidence is compelling that this belief is no longer reality-based.

Source…

Peak jobs? Oh How I Hate It when some anonymous groups create terminology.

The workforce/population is aging.

csis.org/program/global-aging-initiative

The Baby Boomers are retiring, and people are having fewer kids in developed countries.

theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/02/declining-fertility-is-not-the-root-of-americas-problems/272820/

In the US:

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/04/21/why-is-the-teen-birth-rate-falling/

Peace,
Ed

 

[hazcompat]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

2536 The tenth commandment forbids greed and the desire to amass earthly goods without limit. It forbids avarice arising from a passion for riches and their attendant power. It also forbids the desire to commit injustice by harming our neighbor in his temporal goods:

When the Law says, “You shall not covet,” these words mean that we should banish our desires for whatever does not belong to us. Our thirst for another’s goods is immense, infinite, never quenched. Thus it is written: “He who loves money never has money enough.”

2537 It is not a violation of this commandment to desire to obtain things that belong to one’s neighbor, provided this is done by just means. Traditional catechesis realistically mentions “those who have a harder struggle against their criminal desires” and so who “must be urged the more to keep this commandment”:

. . . merchants who desire scarcity and rising prices, who cannot bear not to be the only ones buying and selling so that they themselves can sell more dearly and buy more cheaply; those who hope that their peers will be impoverished, in order to realize a profit either by selling to them or buying from them . . . physicians who wish disease to spread; lawyers who are eager for many important cases and trials.

2538 The tenth commandment requires that envy be banished from the human heart. When the prophet Nathan wanted to spur King David to repentance, he told him the story about the poor man who had only one ewe lamb that he treated like his own daughter and the rich man who, despite the great number of his flocks, envied the poor man and ended by stealing his lamb. Envy can lead to the worst crimes. “Through the devil’s envy death entered the world”:

We fight one another, and envy arms us against one another. . . . If everyone strives to unsettle the Body of Christ, where shall we end up? We are engaged in making Christ’s Body a corpse. . . . We declare ourselves members of one and the same organism, yet we devour one another like beasts.

2539 Envy is a capital sin. It refers to the sadness at the sight of another’s goods and the immoderate desire to acquire them for oneself, even unjustly. When it wishes grave harm to a neighbor it is a mortal sin:

St. Augustine saw envy as “the diabolical sin.” “From envy are born hatred, detraction, calumny, joy caused by the misfortune of a neighbor, and displeasure caused by his prosperity.”

2540 Envy represents a form of sadness and therefore a refusal of charity; the baptized person should struggle against it by exercising good will. Envy often comes from pride; the baptized person should train himself to live in humility:

Would you like to see God glorified by you? Then rejoice in your brother’s progress and you will immediately give glory to God. Because his servant could conquer envy by rejoicing in the merits of others, God will be praised.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a0.htm#2536

Peace

 

[edwest2]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

2536 The tenth commandment forbids greed and the desire to amass earthly goods without limit. It forbids avarice arising from a passion for riches and their attendant power. It also forbids the desire to commit injustice by harming our neighbor in his temporal goods:

When the Law says, “You shall not covet,” these words mean that we should banish our desires for whatever does not belong to us. Our thirst for another’s goods is immense, infinite, never quenched. Thus it is written: “He who loves money never has money enough.”

2537 It is not a violation of this commandment to desire to obtain things that belong to one’s neighbor, provided this is done by just means. Traditional catechesis realistically mentions “those who have a harder struggle against their criminal desires” and so who “must be urged the more to keep this commandment”:

. . . merchants who desire scarcity and rising prices, who cannot bear not to be the only ones buying and selling so that they themselves can sell more dearly and buy more cheaply; those who hope that their peers will be impoverished, in order to realize a profit either by selling to them or buying from them . . . physicians who wish disease to spread; lawyers who are eager for many important cases and trials.

2538 The tenth commandment requires that envy be banished from the human heart. When the prophet Nathan wanted to spur King David to repentance, he told him the story about the poor man who had only one ewe lamb that he treated like his own daughter and the rich man who, despite the great number of his flocks, envied the poor man and ended by stealing his lamb. Envy can lead to the worst crimes. “Through the devil’s envy death entered the world”:

We fight one another, and envy arms us against one another. . . . If everyone strives to unsettle the Body of Christ, where shall we end up? We are engaged in making Christ’s Body a corpse. . . . We declare ourselves members of one and the same organism, yet we devour one another like beasts.

2539 Envy is a capital sin. It refers to the sadness at the sight of another’s goods and the immoderate desire to acquire them for oneself, even unjustly. When it wishes grave harm to a neighbor it is a mortal sin:

St. Augustine saw envy as “the diabolical sin.” “From envy are born hatred, detraction, calumny, joy caused by the misfortune of a neighbor, and displeasure caused by his prosperity.”

2540 Envy represents a form of sadness and therefore a refusal of charity; the baptized person should struggle against it by exercising good will. Envy often comes from pride; the baptized person should train himself to live in humility:

Would you like to see God glorified by you? Then rejoice in your brother’s progress and you will immediately give glory to God. Because his servant could conquer envy by rejoicing in the merits of others, God will be praised.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a0.htm#2536

Peace

Thank you, very much.

God bless,
Ed

 

[ishii]

Oh, Ishii!  Are you just being petulant or do you truly believe I've attacked you?    I'm terribly disappointed that you think I'm attacking you and can only offer a surprised and shocked apology.  It certainly wasn't my intention and, to be fair, I really don't understand how you reached your conclusion.

Tsuwano, when you post this:

I tend to think this accusation often used against the unemployed or those who seek aid from the government, that they have a sense of entitlement or that they are too lazy to do the menial jobs that immigrants often accept, is a right wing canard designed to muddy the political waters and make us think the fault lies with individuals and not with systems.

In response to this:

 The values which the entitlement/victim mentality have instilled in America are the opposite of the hard-working, strong work ethic values that have helped people to be successful.

Okay maybe not attacking, but certainly it was an unfair characterization of my argument. When I make a comment to the effect that part of contemporary society in America thinks the government owes them something - please don’t accuse me of deliberately trying to obfuscate. I stand by that statement, by the way - I think it is a problem. I am not saying that laziness or entitlement mentality alone explains the high unemployment rate in America. But it is a part of the problem. And yet, to make that point causes some apparently to focus solely on that explanation in an unfair caricature - a straw man.

Still, I hope you know I respect you as a deep thinker on this forum and always find our interaction stimulating.

Thanks. こちら　こそ

I agreed with much of what you said in your previous post and I agree with some of the things you said in this post. For example, I agree Socialism is not the best economic system and I also agree that Capitalism, with checks and balances, can indeed decrease the level of poverty in society. Though our Capitalist system doesn’t seem to be doing such a great job at the moment, I have faith in it and believe we can work our way through some of the difficulties we’ve encountered. I think we can do this by focusing on rebuilding the middle class which has suffered so severely under government policies for the last 20 years. Just in case you’re wondering, I am not a Socialist. I have read Ms. Schlaes and, as you must know, her opinions concerning the Great Depression and whether New Deal policies actually prolonged the Great Depression are hotly debated and not fully accepted by most scholars of the subject.

Amity Schlaes challenges both the conservative orthodoxy regarding the Great Depression as well as the liberals’ orthodoxy. I think she is quite balanced and makes a good case. I mean, if the government policies worked, then why, in 1936, was there a “depression within the depression” ?

I am in opposition to you when you say you have more faith in business men subject to the laws of the market to create more opportunities for workers than faceless bureaucrats. I would say that all depends on who the businessman is. There are many businessmen I wouldn’t trust with my interests, especially since I can’t elect them to their positions and many of them already have amassed more power and money necessary for their survival.

Tsuwano, I suggest you read a history of the 20th history to understand the evil that governments are capable of - particularly the historic evil of the government of the country in which you currently reside. I think it is much more rational to fear a government more than a business. If I am wrong, then perhaps you can compare the record of business with the record of governments in the past 100 years. Who elected Kathleen Sebelius? Who elected the IRS as it harassed conservative non-profits? Yet you focus on business as untrustworthy because “they aren’t elected.” At least a business is accountable to its customers. Who does the faceless bureaucrat answer to? The answer is no one. Moreover, how many jobs have faceless bureaucrats created? Businessmen and women invest their own money, take risks, work very, very hard to make their businesses successful. And yet, some on the left demonize business as “greedy.” I think we need more business - fewer regulations and lower taxes. By the way, I work for a business created by rich guys. I am glad they were wealthy and had money to invest in the business so that 20 years later I would have an opportunity for a job which pays a living wage.

I do believe there are unscrupulous business interests, both historically and in our present time, which have been and are detrimental to the interests of society at large. I agree we should award initiative, but initiative must have some hope of reward. That hope of reward, of living a decent life and enjoying the comforts of the middle class, is rapidly fading in America today. I think business has as much to do with this failure as the government.

I think that a strong, robust economy is the best way to help Americans live a decent life. The best way to achieve this is to have a pro-business climate - one that encourages risk and rewards success. Penalizing and demonizing the successful - as so many do - is not the way to create opportunities for the middle class.

Ishii

 

[ralfyman]

Indeed but I don’t know if I’d call it a flaw. But all these one-time tax cuts, one-time unemployment compensation extensions, one-time car purchases, etc. do little for long-term growth. In fact, if anything, they may lead to some false sense of security by overhiring and such. Seems like the real problem is that our society can’t seem to adapt to the dynamics of a free enterprise system. We all look for cutting costs but can’t deal with the cutting of jobs, salaries, that those may affect.

It’s a flaw because the world has physical limitations.

 

[ralfyman]

I think that is the wrong way to look at it.

It is the nature of humanity to pursue economic growth. Capitalism is simply a method of channeling that human drive productively. It does not do so flawlessly, and these flaws are often used as excuses for overturning capitalism, e.g. in favor of communism. But always turns out that the cure is worse than the disease, that the alternatives create more problems than they solve.

One of the flaws of capitalism is the growth of credit. Credit is good because it allows people without to have in order to produce and have. But credit can be abused and after it has been abused sufficiently there is a crash and a reset.

Nobody was ever wrong for saying that a crash is coming. They are inevitable and efforts to prevent them only make them worse when they do come.

From what I gathered, it is not in the nature of human beings to do so. I think one of the key factor for the development of modern capitalism, which is enclosures, became dominant only from the late Middle Ages onward.

Capitalism does not only “channel” that drive productively, but also at the expense of the worker. That’s the only way to keep profits high for owners of modes of production, especially given competition.

Ironically, the reason why capitalism revealed more benefits than communism is because of one of those flaws, which is increasing credit. That allowed for the rise of a consumer spending economy, which was needed in any case as there had to be more buyers of what was produced.

Finally, there are two other predicaments related to the issue, which are peak oil (and the threat of a resource crunch), and environmental damage coupled with global warming.

 

[ralfyman]

The world has physical limitations in terms of biocapacity while consumption is seen as part of ecological footprint:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ecological_footprint

Thus, we have ave. ecological footprint per capita exceeding bio-capacity, causing significant strain on ecosystems.

We can argue that technology will help us, but it is also what may have caused more problems for us. That is, the use of oil during the Green Revolution and for manufacturing and delivery systems led to incredible increases in food supply, medicine, etc. These in turn caused infant mortality rates to drop and life expectancy rates to rise, in turn leading to a population boom.

Now, even with slow birth rates, we still face increasing population but increasing resource and energy demand per capita. A capitalist global economy which requires continuous growth and increasing profits will require even more material resources and energy.

 

[frobert]

We’ll that out go get a rise out of people

Straight comparison. Yeast destroy their environment. Humans seem to be doing a good job in destroying their environment. Humans just have more sophisticated tools at their disposal and a larger playground. Nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[faithsmind]

ralfy, in all good humor, you smell.

 

[frobert]

Peak jobs? Oh How I Hate It when some anonymous groups create terminology.

The workforce/population is aging.

csis.org/program/global-aging-initiative

The Baby Boomers are retiring, and people are having fewer kids in developed countries.

theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/02/declining-fertility-is-not-the-root-of-americas-problems/272820/

In the US:

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/04/21/why-is-the-teen-birth-rate-falling/

Peace,
Ed

Are you agreeing with me? Your statements indicate that the labor pool is shrinking, which it is. Fewer available workers should translate into fewer applicants per job opening and less unemployment, but that is not the case.

In May 2014 the U6 employment rate -total unemployed, plus all marginally attached workers plus total employed part time for economic reasons was at 12.2 percent.

Source: US Dept of Labor

 

[faithsmind]

Moderator Robert, I did acknowledge your warning to all of us, but

cbsnews.com/news/how-to-tell-if-you-smell/
…but I’m trying to be helpful to ralfy, really.
Bubba Zen, I’m starting to hear you, man.
It’s just that I’m pretty sure that I only read and speak at a sixth grade level, so it is difficult.
Mix that in with the fact that I don’t have a badge in Econ, and the fact that I’ve made some sloppy and disorganized comments along with a couple of annoying on here.
The overall feeling is one of frustration. Because the pope’s statement is absolutely intriguing and complex. And obscure. And I’d like to stay somewhat plugged in to this thread. Again, the pope needs to clarify for the critics. Lol.

Let me speak for the pope, if I may.


I believe the pope… when using the word “greed” in the context of youth unemployment, was referring to the instatiable thirst for money which has caused debt, inflation, and crushing taxes.

I change my opinion: greed may drive an economy, but it is not healthy for the economy, because greed quickly turns immoral. And immorality is baseless.

 

[faithsmind]

It’s common sense that greed has always existed, but not to this degree due to increased commercialization. I LOVE commercialization and industry, being part of a business, myself. But when people don’t keep things in balance and become immoral as a result, things fall apart. The Feds began replacing the foundation with sand because of their immoral greed, which has been a slow and insidious process. Also, the Republic has now found that they can vote themselves money, so we’ve turned into a socialist government, let’s face it! Our family owns and runs several successful galleries throughout the US, but we live modestly because of the oppressive taxes. Socialism!

 

[hazcompat]

Is there a benfit to being a financial services industry, and/or the military when youth unemployment is high?

Peace

 

[mikekle]

Im curious what everyone thinks will happen to the CC when the global economy collapses? Or the US economy only for that matter? Im interested if the Pope gave any tips or instructions on how to deal with this when it happens?

From most of Ive seen and read, I think this will happen late 2014 to sometime into 2015. I think back when there was a rash of bankers committing suicide, this had something to do with it, either they found out too much or were planning on going public with the news, or …? and they ended up dead.

When it comes to greed involving millions or billions of dollars, I wouldnt put murder past anyone in large industry or Govt.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Im curious what everyone thinks will happen to the CC when the global economy collapses? Or the US economy only for that matter? Im interested if the Pope gave any tips or instructions on how to deal with this when it happens?

In the past 2000 years we have had a few collapses of the economy and the Church seems to make it through just fine.

From most of Ive seen and read, I think this will happen late 2014 to sometime into 2015. I think back when there was a rash of bankers committing suicide, this had something to do with it, either they found out too much or were planning on going public with the news, or …? and they ended up dead.

When it comes to greed involving millions or billions of dollars, I wouldnt put murder past anyone in large industry or Govt.

When was there a rash of bankers committing suicide?

 

[frobert]

Is there a benfit to being a financial services industry, and/or the military when youth unemployment is high?
Peace

Excellent question which I will answer with another. Does anyone benefiting from financial-industrial-military complex? Cui bono?

Hint: follow the money.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

It’s a flaw because the world has physical limitations.

This is both true and false.

It is true that in any static analysis that the world has physical limitations. There is limited land, for example.

However, land can be put to new uses that effectively overcomes its limited nature. For example, more productive farming or high rise office towers.

Man’s ingenuity can overcome the physical limitations of the world.