Pope Francis: Death penalty is contrary to the Gospel

[irenaeus1]

Hmmm. Sounds pretty close to my image. I would substitute the word “reconciliation” for the second time you used the word “forgiveness” there. Forgiveness takes one. Reconciliation takes two.

This runs contrary to several scriptures. First of all, Jesus did not wait for repentance when He forgave the crowd who hung Him. Secondly we have “If you only love those who love you…” , the spirit of which is that love and forgiveness are not an “earned” thing. Also, we have the sermon on the mount, the call to love, to give, be merciful, etc. Forgiveness is an act of mercy for oneself. We don’t believe in a “do as I say but not as I do” god, God is perfect, a loving perfect.

Again, it depends on the sense being used. It takes one to offer; it takes two to offer and receive. Reconciliation is indeed a result of forgiveness received, and forgiveness received requires repentance. This is not contrary to scripture since scripture clearly states that repentance for the forgiveness of sins is to be preached in Christ’s name.

Even as Jesus suffered while hanging on the cross, His concern was for the forgiveness of those who were His enemies – whether those who were his executioners or those who jeered and consented to his crucifixion. But it is important to note that Jesus’ prayer, “Father, forgive them,” does not mean that every individual was forgiven without repentance and faith. It does mean that Jesus was willing to forgive them – after all, forgiveness of sins was the reason He was on the cross in the first place. The words “Father, forgive them” was an intercessory prayer that shows the merciful heart of God.

 

[irenaeus1]

That said, reconciliation, a unification with our God within, Who we know through our prayer relationship, is compromised when we are not sorrowful and repenting.

I agree with this. His pardon is always there, but in order for it to be efficacious, that is, to have real meaning in my relationship with Him, I must have a humble repentance.

No, His pardon is always available, but one’s sins are not forgiven, remitted, taken away, blotted out (or whatever other phraseology one wants to use) until and unless one repents. And don’t confuse “conditional” with “earned”.

 

[OneSheep]

You mean to tell me that these are all “treatment” plans that merely serve as a divine time-out in the naughty chair for sinful disobedience? Really?

As I stated from what I was taught, this “treatment” is actually the natural consequence of alienation, not something imposed by the Father.

What is the purpose of justice, Irenaeus?

No, His pardon is always available, but one’s sins are not forgiven, remitted, taken away, blotted out (or whatever other phraseology one wants to use) until and unless one repents. And don’t confuse “conditional” with “earned”.

Okay, so are you a parent? If so, let’s pretend that one of your children becomes a drug addict and left the Church. Do you fogive him, or do you wait until he repents before you forgive?

 

[OneSheep]

But it is important to note that Jesus’ prayer, “Father, forgive them,” does not mean that every individual was forgiven without repentance and faith.

Well, I don’t see the grounds for your interpretation. Source?

I think it might be much more productive to see what Jesus saw, and follow His lead.
What did the crowd not know?

 

[irenaeus1]

As I stated from what I was taught, this “treatment” is actually the natural consequence of alienation, not something imposed by the Father.

What is the purpose of justice, Irenaeus?

But that is NOT what the parables illustrate. Again, allow the Word of God to speak as opposed to you imposing your preconceived notions onto the text. The parables clearly illustrate more than merely natural consequences, but structured consequences as well. And in the final analysis, as a result of final impenitence, the structured consequences are eternal.

Before I answer your question regarding the purpose of justice, perhaps it would help if you define what you mean by justice (dikaiosynē). Depending on the context, justice can simply mean conformity to God’s perfect standard as right standing and consequent right behavior with respect to God and within a community. In the setting of a court of law, the judge must conform to a sense of justice – meaning that when he is trying cases, he must be true to the law, must condemn evil, show no partiality, and uphold the cause of uprightness or what is right and just. Is this what you mean by justice?

 

[irenaeus1]

Okay, so are you a parent? If so, let’s pretend that one of your children becomes a drug addict and left the Church. Do you fogive him, or do you wait until he repents before you forgive?

So let’s go with this example: if my child is a drug addict and has left the Church, I would always stand ready to forgive him. My love for my child is unconditional, and I would love him whether he changed his ways or not. However, if he refuses help for his addiction, my forgiveness is held in abeyance and reconciliation cannot proceed since he is not willing to receive it through a firm purpose of amendment. In fact, if he becomes more obstinate in his refusal to face his addiction, it could be that even if I am willing to forgive him, I, as a parent, have to send him away for rehab (i.e., treatment), which is, by the way, more than simply the natural consequences of his addiction that he is already suffering and has now moved to more structured consequences. If he refuses to reform his lifestyle such that his return to the home poses a danger to himself and the other members of the family, then he may never be able to return no matter how much I love him. Or if he is able to leave rehab to come home but refuses to live by my rules (e.g., he wants to continue to do drugs), he will not be allowed to return home no matter how much I love him. If he truly tries to get better to overcome his addiction, and despite his occasional failures and relapses, he could then be welcomed back into the home with all the rights and privileges that he has as a member of the family.

 

[irenaeus1]

Well, I don’t see the grounds for your interpretation. Source?

There are numerous biblical commentaries online. But simply put, the prayer is intercessory; i.e., Jesus was willing to forgive them and so he was pleading to His Father on their behalf. That this does not mean that every individual was forgiven without repentance and faith is consistent with what we know of repentance and forgiveness elsewhere in scripture and tradition. But again, I’m not sure what good it would do to provide a source, since as you have demonstrated already, you would simply chalk it up to an error by the author if it does not comport with your position. But a couple of examples come to mind: Luke 17:3-4 states, “If your brother trespasses against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he trespasses against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to you, saying, I repent; you shall forgive him.” Peter’s first sermon admonished his listeners to repent… for the forgiveness of your sins, and later, Peter rebuked Simon the sorcerer for attempting to buy the gift of God with money, admonishing him to repent so that God would forgive him… in fact, it appears that Peter doubted Simon’s sincerity by saying 'Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart." See also Acts 3:19 or Luke 24.47. Many other examples abound.

 

[OneSheep]

Hello again!

justice can simply mean conformity to God’s perfect standard as right standing and consequent right behavior with respect to God and within a community

Okay, if this is the definition of justice, what is the purpose of the perfect standard and right behavior?

meaning that when he is trying cases, he must be true to the law, must condemn evil, show no partiality, and uphold the cause of uprightness or what is right and just.

Why uphold the cause?

I would always stand ready to forgive him.

When you “stand ready to forgive”, it sounds like you have a heart open to forgive, but have not forgiven. However, the prayer says “as we forgive those who trespass against us” not “as we stand ready to forgive those who trespass against us”. In addition, Mark 11:25 says “If you hold anything against anyone, forgive that person.” It does not say, “If you hold anything against anyone, have a heart open to forgive that person.”

None of the rest of that post says whether or not you actually forgive him.

Please note that I am talking about forgiveness from the heart. I am not talking about a jailer letting someone out of prison. If a resentful jailer does such without forgiving from the heart, then forgiveness has not happened.

 

[OneSheep]

There are numerous biblical commentaries online.

Okay, please find one Catholic commentary that says refutes that Jesus forgave the crowd who hung Him regardless of their repentance or faith.

They were forgiven, Irenaeus, but they were not reconciled with the Father until they themselves took the steps toward such reconciliation.

What I love about Luke 17:3-4 is that it puts a condition on forgiveness, while Mark 11:25 does not. What this means is that the developmental approach comes from God Himself. It is in our nature to forgive a person once they have repented, for the expression of non-acceptance is meant to compel repentance! It is a God-given aspect of our nature. So the Gospel does not condemn this approach at all, it confirms its legitimacy… Mark 11:25, on the other hand, stands as an invitation to a supernatural approach. It would be folly to hold the supernatural approach as “the right way” and the natural approach as “the wrong way”. BOTH approaches have their support in the Gospel! Isn’t God amazing?

Sure, we can wait to forgive until the other repents. God understands, loves us, does not condemn such conditional forgiveness. Jesus, however, sets a higher example from the cross. He loves unconditionally; and forgiveness, as an act of love toward self and other, follows the same lack of condition. Irenaeus, how would you ever forgive a person who has died and can no longer repent? Would you hold the grudge forever? Is that the holiness to which Jesus invites us? Look at this:

Luke 6:
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same. 34 If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit [is] that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, and get back the same amount. 35 But rather, love your enemies and do good to them, and lend expecting nothing back; then your reward will be great and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as [also] your Father is merciful.

This is how Jesus forgave from the cross, expecting nothing back. It is an invitation to deeper relationship.

 

[irenaeus1]

Okay, please find one Catholic commentary that says refutes that Jesus forgave the crowd who hung Him regardless of their repentance or faith.

Are you Catholic, OneSheep? Just curious why you are requesting only a Catholic commentary. Your views don’t seem Catholic considering that you deem the inspired authors to be in error in what they have consigned to writing in the scriptures if it doesn’t comport with your position. Also, the Catholic Church teaches unequivocally that repentance is required to obtain forgiveness, so was wondering why this is so difficult to accept if you are Catholic.

A couple of magisterial references:

From the Council of Trent Session XIV, Chap 4: Contrition, which holds the first place amongst the aforesaid acts of the penitent, is a sorrow of mind, and a detestation for sin committed, with the purpose of not sinning for the future. This movement of contrition was at all times necessary for obtaining the pardon of sins…

From the Catechism (CCC 982), “There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. ‘There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest.’ Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin.”

 

[OneSheep]

Are you Catholic, OneSheep?

Yes, of course.

The citations you gave do not support your statement that Jesus forgave conditionally from the cross.

The citations you quoted affirm the image of God as conditionally forgiving even though a person can see God as unconditionally forgiving. Like I said, the Gospel supports both images. The citations do not negate or discourage forgiving from the heart those who do not repent, nor does it claim that God will not forgive the unrepentant. The word “pardon” if substituted for “reconciliation” makes sense. Forgiveness takes one. Reconciliation takes two.

There needs to be some clarification in those works as to what applies to forgiveness, and what applies to reconciliation. God always forgives. Perhaps this clarification is part of what the unfolding of revelation looks like…

 

[irenaeus1]

The citations you gave do not support your statement that Jesus forgave conditionally from the cross.

The citations you quoted affirm the image of God as conditionally forgiving even though a person can see God as unconditionally forgiving. Like I said, the Gospel supports both images. The citations do not negate or discourage forgiving from the heart those who do not repent, nor does it claim that God will not forgive the unrepentant. The word “pardon” if substituted for “reconciliation” makes sense. Forgiveness takes one. Reconciliation takes two.

There needs to be some clarification in those works as to what applies to forgiveness, and what applies to reconciliation. God always forgives. Perhaps this clarification is part of what the unfolding of revelation looks like…

God does not always forgive as we know this to be the case for the impenitent. I thought that this is where we started as illustrated in the parable of the unforgiving servant; namely, the unforgiving servant ultimately did NOT have his debt forgiven and was thrown into prison. However, God is forgiving (i.e., He is always ready to forgive); that is, God is not set on punishing us. He wants to forgive us and receive us unto himself.

Forgiveness (or pardon) is the taking away of sin – remission of debt, as well as the removal of guilt. If by forgiveness of another, you simply mean not holding a grudge, that’s different. But with regard to God forgiving us our sins, repentance is required. In fact, how can both conditional and unconditional forgiveness be true since you say that the Gospel supports both images? If God always forgives as you say, then under what circumstances would it ever be conditional? And what part of “movement of contrition [repentance] was at all times necessary for obtaining pardon [forgiveness] of sins” could ever be taken to mean that sometimes repentance is not necessary to obtain forgiveness?

So let’s cut to the chase… are you a universalist?

 

[OneSheep]

So let’s go with this example: if my child is a drug addict and has left the Church, I would always stand ready to forgive him.

What if your child died before he ever repents? Would you forgive him? This is a very important question about images.

Forgiveness (or pardon) is the taking away of sin

If sin is an alienation, then the “taking away of sin” involves a movement on the part of the sinner toward God, as He waits with inviting arms.

remission of debt

This refers to the conditionally loving God, the God who holds grudges. If your son becomes an addict and leaves the Church, does he owe you something? If your answer is yes, then a conditionally loving God makes sense. This is the image we form based on human nature, which as I said is understandable and supported in the Gospel. The unconditionally loving/forgiving God is also supported.

as well as the removal of guilt.

Removal of guilt, as a feeling, will depend on reconciliation. Removal of guilt as a debt paid will depend upon the image of God.

If by forgiveness of another, you simply mean not holding a grudge, that’s different

Okay, then does God forgive from His heart, as Jesus forgave from the cross, without condition? Does He hold something (a grudge) against the sinner?

are you a universalist?

That would depend on your definition. God as I know Him is shown to me as Jesus forgiving from the cross, unconditionally. So, if there are no conditions, God forgives everyone. I can relate to this, it is the God I know as understanding, merciful, nurturing, ever-present, never turning away, never condemning anyone.

Question for you: If you knew that God forgives always, would you behave? Would you do good for others? Would you go to Church?

 

[Ender]

Every Christian knows that the dominant values which Christ promoted are love and forgiveness. What values are being promoted in capital punishment and please explain why these values are above love and forgiveness.Keep in mind that to allow capital punishment based on the value of justice allows the sinful value of vengeance to rage like a wildfire throughout our society!

There is no ranking of virtues; there is no virtue that trumps all the rest, and justice is not subsidiary to mercy.

God must be just as well as merciful because He must fulfill His promise to punish those who merit punishment, and because He cannot be infinite in one perfection without being infinite in all. (Baltimore Catechism)

When a criminal is disarmed and in a high-security prison capital punishment is unnecessary, and therefore an evil.

This supposes the purpose of punishment is merely self protection, but since the primary purpose is in fact justice, this assumption is not accurate. If capital punishment was ever appropriate it was because it was the just punishment for the crime, not because it afforded protection for others.

 

[irenaeus1]

What if your child died before he ever repents? Would you forgive him? This is a very important question about images.

If my son is dead, he benefits nothing of me offering forgiveness. I know there’s always the psychological aspect of holding a grudge having the potential for emotional impacts upon those offended, but regardless of whether my ‘letting go’ is considered forgiveness, it does my dead son absolutely no good, for he still died without being fully reconciled… just as with the parable of the prodigal son who was lost and dead prior to his return to his father’s house. If he had died while living his life of dissipation or while in the pig sty, he would have never been welcomed back into his father’s embrace.

This refers to the conditionally loving God,…

I never said anything about God’s love being conditional, and in fact, have stated that God’s love is indeed unconditional (as well as my unconditional love for my son regardless of whether he was addicted to drugs or not).

 

[irenaeus1]

Removal of guilt as a debt paid will depend upon the image of God.

Yes, and if your image of God does not allow you to view the removal of guilt as a debt paid, then your image is in error. And we know this to be the case, for this is precisely the image laid out in many of the parables, which was the intention of Jesus so as to help his hearers understand a proper image of God the Father.

Okay, then does God forgive from His heart, as Jesus forgave from the cross, without condition? Does He hold something (a grudge) against the sinner?

No, God does not forgive without condition. Jesus prayed to the Father to forgive them. Properly speaking, that is not the same thing as Jesus forgiving them, but rather as Jesus’ willingness to forgive. Secondly, you are in error regarding forgiveness without condition because Jesus clearly stipulates a condition in the very sentence to which you appeal. Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they no not what they do.” Why was Jesus praying for them? And who is them? There are a number of commentaries about whether it was the Jewish authorities and certain others who called for his death or perhaps the Roman soldiers. Either way, Jesus was praying, not for everyone involved, but only for those who acted without full knowledge of what they were doing. The other question is whether it was invincible ignorance (i.e., they didn’t know and couldn’t have known) versus inexcusable ignorance (i.e., they didn’t know but they should have known). In the former, some wonder from what would they need to be forgiven if invincible ignorance excused them from any culpability of guilt in the first place. If the latter, then as said before, it was simply an intercessory prayer to the Father on their behalf. Also, what you are missing is that he did not pray for all those involved who did know what they were doing, and were therefore, morally culpable, but only for those who did not know (whatever that may have meant).

 

[irenaeus1]

That would depend on your definition. God as I know Him is shown to me as Jesus forgiving from the cross, unconditionally. So, if there are no conditions, God forgives everyone. I can relate to this, it is the God I know as understanding, merciful, nurturing, ever-present, never turning away, never condemning anyone.

So if God always forgives unconditionally (no repentance required), then no one is liable to eternal separation from God. So then, all the images in scripture regarding punishment are a ruse, and the parables present false images of God (since God cannot both unconditionally and conditionally forgive) and are an intellectually dishonest scare tactic by Jesus and his followers - or at least his followers deceptively recorded as such. One wonders where you get your idea of an unconditionally forgiving God since it would seem useless to appeal to the very same scriptures and authors whom you accuse of deceit, delusion or error.

 

[irenaeus1]

Question for you: If you knew that God forgives always, would you behave? Would you do good for others? Would you go to Church?

I’m not sure what the point of this question is. Atheists can be altruistic, so behaving and doing good to others is merely subjective to one’s own standard of goodness at this point.

 

[OneSheep]

If my son is dead, he benefits nothing of me offering forgiveness.

So, you would not forgive your son, even if He dies?

If so, the invitation stands to forgive, from the heart, all people you hold anything against, with no conditions.

Also, what you are missing is that he did not pray for all those involved who did know what they were doing, and were therefore, morally culpable, but only for those who did not know (whatever that may have meant).

Well, now you are assuming that someone knew what they were doing. Does anyone ever know what they are doing when they sin?

It doesn’t happen. Ever. I am using “know” in an all-inclusive sense. When people sin, there is something that they do not know.

So if God always forgives unconditionally (no repentance required), then no one is liable to eternal separation from God.

Of course someone can eternally end relationship with God. It is the choice of every individual.

The point is that God always chooses us.

I’m not sure what the point of this question is

The question was:

If you knew that God forgives always, would you behave? Would you do good for others? Would you go to Church?

The point of the question is this: if your virtuous living and going to mass depends on the image of a God who forgives conditionally, then by all means stay with that image. The invitation to transcend this image is always there, it sits ready and waiting, but it is more important to stick with what works for you.

Did you ever tell me the purpose of justice?

 

[simpleas]

Just thinking about the parable of the woman caught in adultery, her accusers said according to moses law she should be stoned to death, Jesus points out that none of them are free from sin, and does not agree that her penalty should be death.
Interesting too that when Jesus speaks to her, he doesn’t request that she repent of this sin before he tells her that he does not condemn her, but rather seems to forgive her first and then tell her go sin no more.