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1Lord1Faith
Guest
I like the things he says there. I’d love to read the whole speech.
I wonder what “law” he is referring to here:
I wonder what “law” he is referring to here:
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exnihilo
Guest
Is the Gospel contrary to justice on Earth? What about killing in war and self defense? If killing is something that necessarily takes away human dignity it would have to be the same under those circumstances.
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XndrK
Guest
I for one think that there are crimes which are so heinous in and of themselves as to deserve the death penalty. I read a couple of articles by Edward Feser on the topic and it changed my mind to his side; he apparently wrote a book about it called By Man Shall His Blood Be Shed that I haven’t gotten around to reading.
I’m worried that we as a Church and as a society are placing too much focus on mercy at the expense of the proper pursuit of justice. A dog without teeth is a terrible protector.
I’m worried that we as a Church and as a society are placing too much focus on mercy at the expense of the proper pursuit of justice. A dog without teeth is a terrible protector.
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oppositeman13
Guest
What the Church Actually Teaches About Capital Punishment
The Church’s stance on capital punishment has always been more than merely permissive; the idea, for example, that “rendering harmless” those criminals deserving of capital punishment is sufficient to eradicate the need for such a sentence is simply not consistent with the teachings of Holy Scripture, the understanding of popes, doctors of the Church, and various apostolic pronouncements.
Whatever the present pope’s desire, therefore, to eradicate capital punishment, he can’t — because even a pope lacks the authority to make such a change. In order to advance his position, Pope Francis would have to declare several of his predecessors — as well as St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Thomas More (who prosecuted heretics in an England where that was a capital offense), a papal decree, an apostolic constitution, and also divinely-inspired Sacred Scriptures — to be in error.
We’ll begin with the Scriptures, leaving aside the more numerous examples that could be drawn from the Old Testament and focusing instead on passages taken from the New Testament:
continue reading at - Pope Francis Is Wrong about the Death Penalty. Here's Why. - OnePeterFive
The Church’s stance on capital punishment has always been more than merely permissive; the idea, for example, that “rendering harmless” those criminals deserving of capital punishment is sufficient to eradicate the need for such a sentence is simply not consistent with the teachings of Holy Scripture, the understanding of popes, doctors of the Church, and various apostolic pronouncements.
Whatever the present pope’s desire, therefore, to eradicate capital punishment, he can’t — because even a pope lacks the authority to make such a change. In order to advance his position, Pope Francis would have to declare several of his predecessors — as well as St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Thomas More (who prosecuted heretics in an England where that was a capital offense), a papal decree, an apostolic constitution, and also divinely-inspired Sacred Scriptures — to be in error.
We’ll begin with the Scriptures, leaving aside the more numerous examples that could be drawn from the Old Testament and focusing instead on passages taken from the New Testament:
continue reading at - Pope Francis Is Wrong about the Death Penalty. Here's Why. - OnePeterFive
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pnewton
Guest
From the article:
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christofirst
Guest
Our U.S. bishops agree too:
“While the Old Testament includes some passages about taking the life of one who kills, the Old Testament and the teaching of Christ in the New Testament call us to protect life, practice mercy, and reject vengeance.”
-USCCB, A Culture of Life and the Death Penalty (2005)
“When the state, in our names and with our taxes, ends a human life despite having nonlethal alternatives, it suggests that society can overcome violence with violence. The use of the death penalty ought to be abandoned not only for what it does to those who are executed, but for what it does to all of society.”
-USCCB, A Culture of Life and the Death Penalty (2005)
“While the Old Testament includes some passages about taking the life of one who kills, the Old Testament and the teaching of Christ in the New Testament call us to protect life, practice mercy, and reject vengeance.”
-USCCB, A Culture of Life and the Death Penalty (2005)
“When the state, in our names and with our taxes, ends a human life despite having nonlethal alternatives, it suggests that society can overcome violence with violence. The use of the death penalty ought to be abandoned not only for what it does to those who are executed, but for what it does to all of society.”
-USCCB, A Culture of Life and the Death Penalty (2005)
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exnihilo
Guest
Sometimes we can overcome violence with violence. Sometimes we must. When the state executes someone it shows me it can offer justice. When it fails to execute a notorious criminal I’m not learning life is precious. I’m learning the state doesn’t really provide justice.
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Joe_5859
Guest
The English translation of the speech should eventually be here:
http://w2.vatican.va/content/france...20171011_convegno-nuova-evangelizzazione.html
For now, there is the Google translate version of the Italian:
https://translate.google.com/transl...uova-evangelizzazione.html&edit-text=&act=url
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christofirst
Guest
Pope’s Death Penalty Remarks Signal a New Approach to Development of Doctrine
NEWS ANALYSIS: What the Holy Father’s call for revision of the Catechism means for U.S. approach to criminal justice.
www.ncregister.com
If Pope Francis’ remarks against the death penalty indicate a development of doctrine away from its permissibility, as this National Catholic Register article suggests, will the Catholics here who support the death penalty then agree to its abolition?
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OneSheep
Guest
Here are some important quotes:
“however grave the crime that may be committed, the death penalty is inadmissible because it attacks the inviolability and the dignity of the person.”
"And [the death penalty] is, of itself, contrary to the Gospel, because it is freely decided to suppress a human life that is always sacred in the eyes of the Creator, and of which, in the final analysis, God alone is the true judge and guarantor,”
He quoted Pope John XXIII:
“It is necessary first of all that the church should never depart from the sacred patrimony of truth received from the Fathers. But at the same time, she must ever look to the present, to the new conditions and new forms of life introduced into the modern world which have opened up new avenues to the Catholic apostolate.” Moreover, Pope John added, “our duty is not only to guard this treasure, as if we were concerned only with antiquity, but to dedicate ourselves with an earnest will and without fear to that work which our era demands of us, pursuing thus the path which the church has followed for 20 centuries.”
Some other very significant quotes:
“Tradition is a living reality and only a partial vision can think of ‘the deposit of faith’ as something static. The Word of God cannot be conserved in mothballs as if it were an old blanket to be preserved from parasites. No. The Word of God is a dynamic reality, always alive, that progresses and grows because it tends towards a fulfillment that men cannot stop.”
“law of progress appertains to the peculiar condition of the truth revealed in its being transmitted by the church, and does not at all signify a change of doctrine. One cannot conserve the doctrine without making it progress, nor can one bind it to a rigid and immutable reading without humiliating the Holy Spirit.”
“however grave the crime that may be committed, the death penalty is inadmissible because it attacks the inviolability and the dignity of the person.”
"And [the death penalty] is, of itself, contrary to the Gospel, because it is freely decided to suppress a human life that is always sacred in the eyes of the Creator, and of which, in the final analysis, God alone is the true judge and guarantor,”
He quoted Pope John XXIII:
“It is necessary first of all that the church should never depart from the sacred patrimony of truth received from the Fathers. But at the same time, she must ever look to the present, to the new conditions and new forms of life introduced into the modern world which have opened up new avenues to the Catholic apostolate.” Moreover, Pope John added, “our duty is not only to guard this treasure, as if we were concerned only with antiquity, but to dedicate ourselves with an earnest will and without fear to that work which our era demands of us, pursuing thus the path which the church has followed for 20 centuries.”
Some other very significant quotes:
“Tradition is a living reality and only a partial vision can think of ‘the deposit of faith’ as something static. The Word of God cannot be conserved in mothballs as if it were an old blanket to be preserved from parasites. No. The Word of God is a dynamic reality, always alive, that progresses and grows because it tends towards a fulfillment that men cannot stop.”
“law of progress appertains to the peculiar condition of the truth revealed in its being transmitted by the church, and does not at all signify a change of doctrine. One cannot conserve the doctrine without making it progress, nor can one bind it to a rigid and immutable reading without humiliating the Holy Spirit.”
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OneSheep
Guest
It sounds like you prefer having the death penalty?
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OneSheep
Guest
Yes, the Gospel is contrary to man’s justice. God’s justice is different, for example the parable of the workers in the vineyard.
CCC 2267 said that the DP was allowable when no other means of subduing the murderer was possible, but in effect such an action is not the death penalty, but means of protection. Killing in self-defense was not addressed in his speech as far as I know, nor was war addressed. Those are different subjects.
What would a primitive society, with no prisons, do? They would still have to apprehend and subdue the dangerous person. If in the process of apprehension they have to kill in order to protect themselves from a threat, this would not really be a “death penalty”, right? The death penalty is a designated punishment.
Do you see that from the cross Jesus forgave, rather than calling for condemnation? Do you see that this is the example we are to follow with our hearts before we deliver any restorative punishment?
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twf
Guest
Probably not. On another thread I brought this speech up and a poster told me the Holy Father is in error. It’s like when Trump and the bishops clash… whose in error according to CAF? The bishops of course.
Sigh.
Sigh.
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Joe_5859
Guest
I think they will point out that this is just a speech (not an encyclical, motu proprio, or any more “weighty” document from the pope) and then carry on much as they have been carrying on.
I’m inclined to follow the pope’s lead. I mean, I understand the arguments that people make in favor of the death penalty. I understand that people are more concerned about things like abortion (which takes the lives of millions of innocent children) than they are about capital punishment (which takes the lives of a relative handful of [presumably] guilty adults). But when the pope is speaking of abolishing the death penalty out of respect for human life, I’m not going to argue with him. I’m going to support him.
I’m inclined to follow the pope’s lead. I mean, I understand the arguments that people make in favor of the death penalty. I understand that people are more concerned about things like abortion (which takes the lives of millions of innocent children) than they are about capital punishment (which takes the lives of a relative handful of [presumably] guilty adults). But when the pope is speaking of abolishing the death penalty out of respect for human life, I’m not going to argue with him. I’m going to support him.
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exnihilo
Guest
God’s Justice is perfect and man’s imperfect. It doesn’t mean we don’t try and do the best we can.
God forgives. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a price to be paid for our sin even once we are forgiven.
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OneSheep
Guest
Exactly. And God’s justice is mercy!
And the price of murder is death, in your opinion?
But you see, though, that the price does not have to do with a debt, it has to do with punishment, does it not? Unless you are saying that the debt itself is a punishment.
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mythbuster1
Guest
The Church grants a plenary indulgence to repentant criminals who accept their execution as the just punishment for their crimes.
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mythbuster1
Guest
The issue is not whether or not doctrine can develop, but that A can never become not-A. To say that we ought not to put murderers to death out of mercy is coherent. To say that it is contrary to human dignity to put a murderer to death is not coherent, for the entire basis for the death penalty for murder is the dignity of the victim, whose blood cries out to Heaven for vengeance. And if it is contrary to natural law today to put murderers to death, then it was always contrary to natural law, for natural law cannot change. The conclusion is an absurdity, nay, a blasphemy- to say that God commanded something that was intrinsically evil.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Do you have a source for that one?
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