Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

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Yes, too much welfare can cripple an economy and do more harm than good. But having too little redistribution results in too much inequality.
But to what extent are inequities wrong. For example, if there are two men, one who’s standard of living increased by 50% each and one who’s standard of living increased 5% each year.

If both are going up, what rights does either have to complain?
 
I don’t understand why you think it’s a bad idea to care for the poor as efficiently as possible…

Are you and I essentially disagreeing on the most efficient manner of wealth redistribution? Or are we disagreeing with some moral principle? If so, can you identify it for me so we can discuss it?
I don’t believe that welfare is efficient care for the poor. It is efficent care for political power. I don’t believe Jesus is calling us to ensure that politicans can pose as saviors at election time while creating a culture of dependency, or worse.

Far and away economic participation is a much more efficent method of providing for the poor. Where that falls short, charity is more efficient toward the desired ends.

Figure out the right thing to do before worryig about doing it efficiently.
 
I would say that it has it’s roots more in 1st Century Rome with it’s 'bread and circuses"
It has been reinvented from time to time but it’s interesting that Rome’s bread and circuses was based on booty from foreign conquest, the spoils of war. Modern welfareism is the spoils of class warfare.
 
But to what extent are inequities wrong. For example, if there are two men, one who’s standard of living increased by 50% each and one who’s standard of living increased 5% each year.

If both are going up, what rights does either have to complain?
Sure, in the case of Kaldor-Hicks optimality it would be hard to claim that either party to complain much from an efficiency standpoint.

But if we measure inequality with respect to the Gini coefficient, I think we can worry. The problem of economic inequality affects the whole economic system (and the social system, obviously). Ensuring that resources are distributed equally is an important economic and moral goal.

As far as giving a baseline, I’m not sure what I would set. I’d have to look closer at the data. I’m glancing at a chart right now, and it looks like the US is about .38, with S. Africa above .6 and Sweden at .25. Soooooo…I guess anything above .3 / .35 is worrisome?
 
Sure, in the case of Kaldor-Hicks optimality it would be hard to claim that either party to complain much from an efficiency standpoint.

But if we measure inequality with respect to the Gini coefficient, I think we can worry. The problem of economic inequality affects the whole economic system (and the social system, obviously). Ensuring that resources are distributed equally is an important economic and moral goal.

As far as giving a baseline, I’m not sure what I would set. I’d have to look closer at the data. I’m glancing at a chart right now, and it looks like the US is about .38, with S. Africa above .6 and Sweden at .25. Soooooo…I guess anything above .3 / .35 is worrisome?
Just because you can measure something doesn’t mean that it is a problem. Why do you believe that “Ensuring that resources are distributed equally is an important economic and moral goal.”

The variance in income inequality is negligable compared to the variance in life in the universe. Is that unjust? Is variation in height or weight unjust? How about variance in running speed?

If you set yourself the task of making all things equal it will consume your life, and not in a good way.
 
Just because you can measure something doesn’t mean that it is a problem. Why do you believe that “Ensuring that resources are distributed equally is an important economic and moral goal.”

The variance in income inequality is negligable compared to the variance in life in the universe. Is that unjust? Is variation in height or weight unjust? How about variance in running speed?

If you set yourself the task of making all things equal it will consume your life, and not in a good way.
I think you’re misreading my comments. Obtaining perfect equality is not the goal: ensuring that inequality lies within a manageable, socially acceptable range is.
 
Distributism is not capitalism. It’s communism minus all the bad stuff. Beyond that it is not even a meaningful concept. I think we’ve spent more than enough time in these forums trying to pin it down but it’s easier to nail jello to the wall.

For anyone interested in learning more: intercollegiatereview.com/index.php/2013/08/05/whats-wrong-with-distributism/
Totally unworkable. abolish banks and interest? and how do you “distribute” the property already owed by large corporations and individuals. Although it claims to protect private property it envisions vast co-ops where everybody “pools” their property and works together for the common good. Of course as you note you can never get a straight answer as to what is is-but , like most of my college terms papers, it sounds great!

BTW-it is in no way shape or form connected to the catholic church. just because it was prmoted adopted by Dorothy Day does not make it “catholic” in any way
 
Why? How?
Read Pope Benedict’s encyclical “Deus Caritas Est” specifically paras 21-35.

The Charism of Charity lies propery (and primarly) on the faithful and on the Church

St. John Chrysostom (Doctor of the Churh) stated it very well
Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich person’s gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone? Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm.
Those who combined both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again. Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold form the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift. Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm. Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first — and then they will joyfully share their wealth
If we rely on the State do redistribute, all we end up with is bitterness and resentment on the part of those from whom wealth is taken, and where the poor feel no gratitude, for it is perceived as an entitlement. Do we not see this today? Is there not bitterness on the part of those from whom wealth is taken, and how much gratitude is shown on the part of the recipients towards the sources of the wealth?

This process brings about no Grace, but, as St. John noted, actually does moral harm

The means by which the Church chooses, the free gift, brings about Grace in both the giver and the receiver. The promotion of such Grace should clearly be the goal of all Catholics.

The poor might gain a temporary material wealth, and those who have the skills to gain money will quickly do so again. But where is the Grace? Where is the Caritas?

Where is the most SPIRITUAL wealth to be gained, and why are we not seeking it?
 
I think you’re misreading my comments. Obtaining perfect equality is not the goal: ensuring that inequality lies within a manageable, socially acceptable range is.
What is “socially acceptable” is a matter of fashion and taste, not moral imperative. We know from history that inequality was particularly unacceptable in the Soviet Union, for example. The more envy is socially accepted the less social acceptance of inequality.
 
What is “socially acceptable” is a matter of fashion and taste, not moral imperative. We know from history that inequality was particularly unacceptable in the Soviet Union, for example. The more envy is socially accepted the less social acceptance of inequality.
You’re still missing the main thrust of my point: that we should care about the efficient distribution of wealth as a moral / social issue, and that eliminating inequality is not the goal. Finding a morally responsible distribution of resources in a society is.
 
You’re still missing the main thrust of my point: that we should care about the efficient distribution of wealth as a moral / social issue, and that eliminating inequality is not the goal. Finding a morally responsible distribution of resources in a society is.
My point is that the entire enterprise of pursuing a “morally responsible distribution of resources in a society” is a red herring and leads to immorality.
 
You’re still missing the main thrust of my point: that we should care about the efficient distribution of wealth as a moral / social issue, and that eliminating inequality is not the goal. Finding a morally responsible distribution of resources in a society is.
And how do you recommend this distribution be carried out?
 
Read Pope Benedict’s encyclical “Deus Caritas Est” specifically paras 21-35.

The Charism of Charity lies propery (and primarly) on the faithful and on the Church

St. John Chrysostom (Doctor of the Churh) stated it very well

If we rely on the State do redistribute, when we end up with is bitterness and resentment on the part of those from whom wealth is taken, and where the poor feel no gratitude, for it is perceived as an entitlement. Do we not see this today? Is there not bitterness on the part of those from whom wealth is taken, and how much gratitude is shown on the part of the recipients towards the sources of the wealth?

This process brings about no Grace, but, as St. John noted, actually does moral harm

The means by which the Church chooses, the free gift, brings about Grace in both the giver and the receiver. The promotion of such Grace should clearly be the goal of all Catholics.

The poor might gain a temporary material wealth, and those who have the skills to gain money will quickly do so again. But where is the Grace? Where is the Caritas?

Where is the most SPIRITUAL wealth to be gained, and why are we not seeking it?
It’s not an “either/or” situation.

Redistribution of wealth in the form of charity is great, I love it. I think we should all freely give up some of our resources to others because this is what Christ told us we should do, and for all those other great reasons you outlined above.

As far as defending redistribution through government, I suppose I would conjecture that the size of society, the massive amounts of resources to be distributed, and the democratic values at stake when we talk about what our government should spend money on all suggest that government redistribution is a perfectly fine thing.

Plus, wealth redistribution doesn’t just come in the form of public benefits or entitlements like SS. It comes in the form of public libraries, roads, subsidized goods, public education, administrative regulations, standard setting, criminal enforcement, etc. No one (an exaggeration, maybe) thinks these are bad things.

I’m perfectly okay with us disagreeing on what amount or degree of wealth redistribution is necessary. That’s a matter of public policy. But as a philosophical matter, you cannot avoid admitting that government redistribution of wealth is necessary.
 
Redistribution of wealth in the form of charity is great, I love it. I think we should all freely give up some of our resources to others because this is what Christ told us we should do, and for all those other great reasons you outlined above.
The purpose of charity is not the redistribution of wealth, it is not intended to dent the Gini coeficient.

The purpose of charity is to help those in need. It may entail giving money or food or it may be a simple as giving time or saying a kind word.
I’m perfectly okay with us disagreeing on what amount or degree of wealth redistribution is necessary. That’s a matter of public policy. But as a philosophical matter, you cannot avoid admitting that government redistribution of wealth is necessary.
In fact, you can.
 
Read Pope Benedict’s encyclical “Deus Caritas Est” specifically paras 21-35.

The Charism of Charity lies propery (and primarly) on the faithful and on the Church

St. John Chrysostom (Doctor of the Church) stated it very well:

“If we rely on the State do redistribute, all we end up with is bitterness and resentment on the part of those from whom wealth is taken, and where the poor feel no gratitude, for it is perceived as an entitlement. Do we not see this today? Is there not bitterness on the part of those from whom wealth is taken, and how much gratitude is shown on the part of the recipients towards the sources of the wealth?”
Very good Brendan:thumbsup:
 
And how do you recommend this distribution be carried out?
I think a national VAT tax would be a good start. We should separate revenue generation from wealth redistribution. By capturing taxes more efficiently, we can simultaneously lower them. Tax code reform to make it simpler to understand. Creating an exception to the capital gains tax for executive compensation so that corporate bonuses that are vested are treated as income.

Those are a few suggestions. I would expand high school to five years. Trade or technical schools, where you could learn a specific skill, would be free for the first two years. We would not provide student loans from the government (or they would be lowered significantly) in order to force colleges to lower tuition.

Umm…we would create a free trade agreement with the EU and China to open the borders for American services and goods.

I’d also spend more money on public works. We’d update our transportation infrastructure for sure, as well as our electrical grids.

I don’t know. I’m just tossing ideas off the top of my head, I guess.
 
The government seems to be getting more and more of a hold. I have read that some have said from sources I am not sure of that we incarcerate more persons than any other country. Maybe because there’s so many laws and everything now is against the law and criminal prosecution is big business. Some people love to be the victim.
It is absurd that we waste tax payer dollars splitting up good-natured families over immigration because of some “exact” principle and this ridiculous “war on drugs”.
 
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