Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

  • Thread starter Thread starter Birdpreacher
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
If Pope Francis was suggesting that we should live under the boot heals of Statism, well, that suggestion can only be diabolical.
My above post has proven to be correct as 0bama uses Pope Francis’ (translated) words to call for more Gov’t regulation which is not the solution for income inequality, but is in fact the cause. Those loaded words have proven to be useful to Satan.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDAQqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2013%2F12%2F04%2Fobama-quotes-pope-francis_n_4386622.html&ei=NLOgUu2BEImrsQTCjIHQDQ&usg=AFQjCNHgrDRF0jx97xdhObeUvZDTB1qSrA&sig2=rwqI4f_SOGNbDgRn58Ck3A
 
My above post has proven to be correct as 0bama uses Pope Francis’ (translated) words to call for more Gov’t regulation which is not the solution for income inequality, but is in fact the cause. Those loaded words have proven to be useful to Satan.
Unfortunately, it was not only Obama who was encouraged:
Venezuela’s Nicolás Maduro once claimed to be a disciple of a famous Hindu guru. But like his predecessor Hugo Chávez, who died in March, President Maduro is not averse to posing as a follower of Catholic teaching when it suits him.
In October he appeared in public wearing a rosary around his neck that was reportedly given to him by Pope Francis in Rome. It was a political gesture to suggest his government had the favor of the Holy Father. Some Venezuelans might believe it. The pope, like Mr. Maduro, has emerged as a severe critic of free-market economics.
Last week Pope Francis provided Mr. Maduro cover for his claim that state tyranny is morally justified when the pontiff blasted economic freedom in his first apostolic exhortation. Venezuelans are sinking further into poverty under Mr. Maduro’s anti-market policies. The pope wants the larger role for the state and an emphasis on equality of outcomes that those policies reflect.
online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303562904579228233172719594
 
That question has been posed numerous times without reply. It is an interesting question. There are a number of similar questions that deserve answers. But don’t hold your breath waiting for them.
I am not sure what the point is, because the pope does not use the term unfettered capitalism in the document.
 
As a student of economics, I wish to respectfully push back against what Pope Francis recently said, as I believe history proves capitalism produces a better standard of living for all. Economist Milton Freedman once pointed out “there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system.” One can just look at the different standard of living between free-market economies and “planned” economies to know which is better. I suspect, I don’t know for sure, Pope Francis is talking about the Peronista type capitalism he saw in Argentina. The corrupt, crony capitalism found in his native land isn’t free-market capitalism. Also, I see a misunderstanding of Adam Smith, and a fixed-pie economic mentality in his writing. I know the Pope is sincere about helping the poor, but I think he is wrong.
Can you point to specific examples in the writing that you wish to refute? I personally don’t think it is what you think it is (condemning capitalism), but a statement that moral decisions should play a role in capitalism and that we can’t expect capitalism by itself to solve all of the poor’s problems.
 
The question is structuring society to value children and families. What can we as Catholics do to improve that?
I’ll tell you what, the first step is to get Government out of competition with the Church.

Every place where government actively competes with the Church, you see the same thing - abortion on demand, lower church attendance and birth rates that are below even the threshold for replacement.
 
I am not sure what the point is, because the pope does not use the term unfettered capitalism in the document.
These are the paragraphs under discussion:
  1. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting. To sustain a lifestyle which excludes others, or to sustain enthusiasm for that selfish ideal, a globalization of indifference has developed. Almost without being aware of it, we end up being incapable of feeling compassion at the outcry of the poor, weeping for other people’s pain, and feeling a need to help them, as though all this were someone else’s responsibility and not our own. The culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase. In the meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us.
No to the new idolatry of money
  1. One cause of this situation is found in our relationship with money, since we calmly accept its dominion over ourselves and our societies. The current financial crisis can make us overlook the fact that it originated in a profound human crisis: the denial of the primacy of the human person! We have created new idols. The worship of the ancient golden calf (cf. Ex 32:1-35) has returned in a new and ruthless guise in the idolatry of money and the dictatorship of an impersonal economy lacking a truly human purpose. The worldwide crisis affecting finance and the economy lays bare their imbalances and, above all, their lack of real concern for human beings; man is reduced to one of his needs alone: consumption.
  1. While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules. Debt and the accumulation of interest also make it difficult for countries to realize the potential of their own economies and keep citizens from enjoying their real purchasing power. To all this we can add widespread corruption and self-serving tax evasion, which have taken on worldwide dimensions. The thirst for power and possessions knows no limits. In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule.
(Bolded mine)

The term “unfettered capitalism” is widely used by the media in describing his point, just try googling the term.
 
I’ll tell you what, the first step is to get Government out of competition with the Church. Every place where government actively competes with the Church, you see the same thing - abortion on demand, lower church attendance and birth rates that are below even the threshold for replacement.
Unfortunately, very many of the clergy are more than eager to serve the state if only because it’s easier to fund their (often worthwhile) activities from taxes than from donations.
 
Can you point to specific examples in the writing that you wish to refute? I personally don’t think it is what you think it is (condemning capitalism), but a statement that moral decisions should play a role in capitalism and that we can’t expect capitalism by itself to solve all of the poor’s problems.
See the above paragraphs in discussion.

But if you just want to pick out something to refute, the easiest place to begin is with Pope Francis’ statements on the nonviolent nature of “authentic” Islam:
  1. In order to sustain dialogue with Islam, suitable training is essential for all involved, not only so that they can be solidly and joyfully grounded in their own identity, but so that they can also acknowledge the values of others, appreciate the concerns underlying their demands and shed light on shared beliefs. We Christians should embrace with affection and respect Muslim immigrants to our countries in the same way that we hope and ask to be received and respected in countries of Islamic tradition. I ask and I humbly entreat those countries to grant Christians freedom to worship and to practice their faith, in light of the freedom which followers of Islam enjoy in Western countries! Faced with disconcerting episodes of violent fundamentalism, our respect for true followers of Islam should lead us to avoid hateful generalisations, for authentic Islam and the proper reading of the Koran are opposed to every form of violence.
(Bold mine.)
 
LOL, that made me laugh. The Democrats do not teach free-market capitalism. It’s not a free market when they put their hands in it and regulate it into oblivion.
For the record, there were a number of regulations put into place after the Stock Market crash of 1987. I didn’t hear any one calling the big government out on that one.
 
I wonder if anyone posting here can give me an example of exactly where “unfettered capitalism” is practiced?
My answer was in criminal organizations, such as the drug cartels of Mexico and South America, or in the slave trading rings of North Africa.
Other than that, unfettered capitalism is not practiced anywhere.

Someone said that Republicans advocate laissez-faire capitalism.
I found that answer droll, but otherwise not worthy of discussion.
 
capitalism is not money idolatry. The actual tyranny is out of control government seizure, redistribution, and waste of money, in the case of the US govt., to the tune of approximately 17 trillion USD. With regard to the Pontiff’s opinion, I would say that although he meant well, he is talking with seemingly limited knowledge of capitalism. I am not sure what unfettered means, in this case. Nowhere is capitalism truly unfettered. I don’t have an opinion, in case anyone is wondering, on what Rush Limbaugh said, aside from supporting his right, and any other American’s right, to speak free of government censure. Trickle down economics simply means people who have money spend and invest their money, creating more jobs, more opportunity, and more wealth for those willing to work hard. Higher taxes hurt the spending, but not enough that the “rich” people aren’t still spending and investing. I am not concerned with why they do, because that isn’t my concern. I, specifically, work at the worlds largest retailer, and my whole paycheck depends exclusively on trickle down ( spend money at the store ) economics. While the Pontiff doesn’t know me, or possibly understand how, he is in effect attacking my only current source of income. If the church wants to attack poverty, they should support everyone’s ability and opportunity to support themselves by providing goods and services to others, or to their employers, to the extent that they are willing to do so.
 
Someone said that Republicans advocate laissez-faire capitalism. I found that answer droll, but otherwise not worthy of discussion.
I also passed on that earlier but maybe someone should come out and say something.
  1. Free market capitalism is an ideal. It is nowhere put into perfect practice. And those who theorize about it do not always agree on the details. You can find ratings of national economies if you are interested in comparing one to another. Hong Kong and Singapore tend to get high marks as does Switzerland. The US has been falling.
  2. Neither American political party is a genuine advocate of free market capitalism. It is fair to say that the Republicans, today, are stronger supporters and the Democrats more adversarial toward it.
  3. Historically the parties have not been consistent. Before the Civil War the Democrats were the party of free market capitalism and the Republicans favored mercantilism and this persisted into the late 19th century. (When you hear people describing the Republicans as the party of big business they are reaching back to this era.) The Whigs of Britain were strong free market supporters as well as advocates of what we might call today civil rights.
In summary, those who favor free market capitalism would do well to distrust politicians who will always find political advantage in renting their political power to the highest bidder.
 
The Corporal Works of Mercy
Code:
Feed the hungry
Give drink to the thirsty
Clothe the naked
Shelter the homeless
Visit the sick
Visit the imprisoned
Bury the dead
Not
Code:
Feed the government
Give drink to thirsty fraud artists raiding government coffers
Clothe gov't workers with designer outfits
Shelter the homeless, but only (says the gov't) during certain hours; at other times, dump them onto the street like garbage
Visit charity websites so that you can donate money but not have to actually encounter poverty
Visit voting booths on election day and cast ballots for those who promise the largest government "program" ever
Bury private initiative in individuals and organizations
Somehow I think Jesus preached the first list as the meaning of social justice, not the second list. 😉
 
Last night, Lauren Green, Chief Religion Correspondent for the Fox News Channel, appeared on the Brit Baier News program to slam Limbaugh. It was a disgrace, but not a surprise when it comes to Green.
 
What the story was about? Is there a video on the Fox news or Fox insider website? Regarding what Rush Limbaugh said about Pope Francis?
 
What the story was about? Is there a video on the Fox news or Fox insider website? Regarding what Rush Limbaugh said about Pope Francis?
I Googled it and didn’t find anything. I don’t recall ever seeing Lauren Green be anything other than professional. 🤷
 
I don’t think it is practiced anywhere… Hong Kong is often cited as being the least regulated, passing Singapore in recent years, but even Hong Kong has a minimum wage as well as other regulations.
It isnt, and that was my point. The covetous and envious attitude in this country has gotten very loud and obnoxious over the last 5 years. Seems to me folks should really start worrying about their own charity and less about what others are doing.I say this as a man working two jobs to support my family. I am by no means wealthy.
 
You definitely seem to have a centralized, bureaucratic preference to the actually mutli-faceted, differentiated, and sometimes individualized reasons and manifestations of human needs.

Sometimes governments do quite well, and far better than any charity or any individual. For example, in my region (I’m sure many others, too) the homelessness situation is a study in the shame of inefficiency and detachment: the government could help, often inexpensively, in ways it is not helping, and could do so in cooperation with churches of all kinds who are willing to provide labor and food and supplies, but cannot fund structures (shelters). Government, possibly because of stupid existing regulations which could be changed, insists on “doing it all” if they do anything. Thus, if it’s “their” shelter, they insist on rigid conditions and prohibitions and personnel, rather than being willing merely to offer the existing, empty building owned by the City for the use of church/synagogue personnel to serve those homeless with ready volunteers, and more than just certain hours per day.

The idea that a shelter has to be only a place to bed down, and then you’re ejected for the rest of the day, is not a solution. There are gov’t buildings which, with slight modifications and little expenditure, could be partitioned into sleeping quarters, hygiene quarters, daycare quarters for single homeless parents, and employment resource quarters for the employable. Those “quarters” (literally) could be funded with a combination of gov’t and private charities/organizations/individuals, the latter of which would do most or all of the daily work.

The current situation is a study in despair, with gov’t mixing the unemployable (often mentally diagnosed, alcoholic, drug-impaired, or otherwise dysfunctional) with the employable and even just newly homeless. The entire shelter population is dumped onto the street, quite literally, with no differentiation, at daybreak, also with nowhere to go and no practical direction or resources. Gov’t can provide physical structures far more efficiently; private organizations tend to provide personal services more effectively (and often more efficiently as well).

The unemployable and socially dysfunctional should be separated from those with the mental wherewithal to function and return to the mainstream. That is something, actually, which government could also assist in, given that it has resources to differentiate one group from the other, and has treatment resources as well.

Some of you may not be aware, but many local gov’ts actually have funds and departments for local homelessness. In my area, those funds were shamefully mined by some corrupt official or officials, and I would be all in favor of such fraud being designated as a felony with mandatory incarceration and financial recompense, since homelessness affects the welfare of the entire community and even larger society.

I’m just so tired of the failed One Size Fits No One approach. It’s also very lazy, and Sloth is a Capital Sin.

Charity favors a multi-faceted and cooperative approach which doesn’t cynically and ungenerously tolerate homeless “hotels” for the night, but assumes that there is a subset of the homeless population that is highly motivated to become housed a.s.a.p. Charity assumes that such motivation deserves a pathway of support beyond an evening hotel.
If you read my original response you will see that I pointed out where I think government does a better job and where private charities are particularly useful, so I’m not sure where you get the preference for a centralized approach from ( it was simply the poster’s choice to focus on the role I assigned as best suited to government). A charity can’t decide on zoning regulations, where to run a highway or where to place parks/services/transportation hubs (all things that impact poverty in terms of access to jobs, safe housing environments etc) - that’s the job of government, beginning with local government.

Multifaceted means just that: multiple approaches that involve government and private organizations/individuals working together. To my knowledge there are several areas, including services to the homeless, where that sort of cooperation has been particularly fruitful.
 
It isnt, and that was my point. The covetous and envious attitude in this country has gotten very loud and obnoxious over the last 5 years. Seems to me folks should really start worrying about their own charity and less about what others are doing.I say this as a man working two jobs to support my family. I am by no means wealthy.
God bless you, Thomas Peter. Sounds like your family is blessed to have you!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top