Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

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But we’re still living under uptick/downtick rules, stoppage of trade after 500 point drops (or whatever it is now), etc. And it seems like many of the rules bias the market upwards. That’s hardly free market.
We’re living under crony capitalism.

That’s what you get with a nation that votes on race, gives “the benefit of the doubt” to the incumbents and scramble to get their crumbs from the king’s table.

The stock market is a giant bubble.
 
The stock market is a giant bubble.
That should be the next thing the Pope addresses. 🙂

I hope he has better luck with it than “irrational exuberance” Greenspan or “home prices will never come down” Bernanke.
 
Possibly of passing interest, the French version uses the words “rechute favorable”, meaning, literally, “favorable relapse”. In other words, a return of accumulated wealth favorable to its sources. It does differ from “trickle down” in two ways. First, the French version implies a total return or churning of money through society, like plowing fertilizer into the earth, while “trickle down” implies tiny bits of return, like crumbs falling off a table. Also, as near as I can tell, “rechute favorable” is not a negative political term used in France to wrongly describe something entirely different. “Trickle down” in (negative) political parlence in America was an intentional mischaracterization of Reagan’s theory that encouragement of production would raise incomes. It was called “trickle down” by his political enemies based on their belief that increasing production would benefit only a few, and that this was Reagan’s intent.

Perhaps a French person can correct me on this, but I do not see that the respective terms mean quite the same thing. One would not be terribly surprised if the term “trickle down” was used in the English version by whoever it is in the Vatican’s employ who turns out English versions of Papal statements, disclosing his/her own political biases in the process, in preference perhaps to what the Pope actually intended. In reality, it doesn’t really fit in the context taken as a whole.

If so, it’s a shame, because some people in the U.S. are quite aware that “trickle down” is a political slur, and many will think (mistakenly in my opinion) the Pope shares the animosity toward them of those who coined the term.
What IS a shame is the incompetency of the current Vatican staff responsible for translating the words of the Holy Father to the English-speaking world. An international Council of Cardinals is laying out plans to completely overhaul the Roman Curia.

Of course, as usual, the Vatican will do so by means of quill and ink, and then use the same translators.

I know what the Cardinals would overhaul immediately if I were Pope Francis. Has it not been painfully, embarrassingly, obvious for some time now that when the Holy Father speaks people around the world say, “What? No, he didn’t say that, did he?”:confused:
 
And I would disagree that such money was wasted, if only because correlation does not imply causation (in fighting disease as in fighting poverty).

At the risk of going off-topic (actually I think it is a perfect analogy to poverty alleviation), I would suggest to you that an increasing number of people with cancer in the face of billions spent on research could be due to a multitude of factors that have nothing to do with usefulness of the research. The drug could be 100% effective and cancer incidence could still rise, if a. nobody can afford to buy it, b. it is not used properly, c. there is a shortage…and on and on. In addition, if new cases of cancer arise faster than people are cured (that is if inflow exceeds outflow) there will still be a rise in cancer even with a perfectly effective drug. In medical research as in social science, even if a solution/‘cure’ is found to directly cause worsening of a problem, it is still not a waste because it tells us what does not work so we can move on to trying an alternative.
Seekerz, the medicine for poverty in the form of welfare, prescribed since the 1960’s has created a culture of dependency, entitlement, and illegitimacy. The medicine of liberalism has failed.

Ishii
 
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Did I say any of that? I said the government has responsibilities regarding housing, transportation, zoning regs etc. How you can translate that into "owing" anybody anything leaves me somewhat bemused
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So the govt. has “responsibilities regarding housing, transportation” what does that mean exactly? You didn’t indicate specifically - so why not tell us? By housing, do you mean the govt. owes everyone lodging? By transportation do you mean govt owes everyone a bus pass? A car? Light rail? Be specific - otherwise your platitudes are meaningless.
I love solutions, period. I am not particularly invested in who does what…“just get it done already”, aptly sums up my general attitude.
Let me know when you find a govt. program that “gets it done”
“A welfare check” was not my suggested solution to these families’ dilemma but I think I am correct in deducing that the Pope is saying we can’t simply accept such dehumanizing situations. We (individuals and government) are duty bound to DO something about it. I don’t particularly care what form that action takes as long as it is not immoral.
So you don’t care if the action makes matters worse? As long as its not “immoral” ?
 
What IS a shame is the incompetency of the current Vatican staff responsible for translating the words of the Holy Father to the English-speaking world.
The English-speaking world became painfully aware of questionable translations back in the 60’s when handmissal translations were scrapped for some “dynamic” translations. 40 years later they were retranslated to more “literal” translations. Give it some time and things will get translated again. Translations sell Bibles, so why not keep them going to stimulate interest?
 
Seekerz, the medicine for poverty in the form of welfare, prescribed since the 1960’s has created a culture of dependency, entitlement, and illegitimacy. The medicine of liberalism has failed.

Ishii
I disagree - but we already know that…like I said before, poverty is multifactorial an correlation does not imply causation. For example, there is no convincing evidence I’m aware of that illegitimacy is caused by ‘liberalism’ rather than by poverty itself (yes, that’s another one of my favorite themes).

To get a proper perspective, one has to take one’s eyes off a single country and take a global view if only because poverty and its alleviation has been a global problem. Despite organizations committed to economic development (World Bank, IMF), NGOs, religious and governmental organizations of every description, the track record on global poverty alleviation has not been particularly impressive either.

There is a long-running argument in the global community about what works to relieve poverty; every few years the World Bank changes its approach: once it was busy imposing austerity on every country desperate enough to sign up, then it became enamored with the population control approach and got involved in promoting ‘health’ to increase wealth. None of these are simple black and white issues, regardless of efforts to wrap them up in one-line slogans like ‘health for all before the year 2000’.

So to make it all about the US and ideology, to me, is just a cop-out. I challenge any governmental program or charity out there that has found a definitive solution to the problem of poverty to present the evidence. Or let’s do it a another way: identify the poor society with the lowest expectations, most self-reliance and highest rate of intact families in the world and I’d wager morning coffee for the rest of my lifetime, that after a decade or two - all other factors being equal - those people are just as poor as they are today, and perhaps even poorer.
 
it amazes me the amount of denial and mental gymnastics GOP Catholics (Fr. Sirico and Acton Institute) go through to defend the intersts of the rich over the poor. It’s an example of cafeteria Catholicism at its finest.
Ain’t it the truth? Thank you for your post.
 
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So the govt. has “responsibilities regarding housing, transportation” what does that mean exactly? You didn’t indicate specifically - so why not tell us? By housing, do you mean the govt. owes everyone lodging? By transportation do you mean govt owes everyone a bus pass? A car? Light rail? Be specific - otherwise your platitudes are meaningless.
My platitudes? We could discuss the meaning of “is” like I’ve observed many on the internet doing since the Pope’s words but I’m sure you would agree that this is pointless.

I already gave a specific example of working families unable to obtain basic shelter that is safe and at least semi-permanent due to rents that lie way above their pay grade. That is obviously a situation where government has a responsibility to assist them, seeing that shelter is a basic need of every human being. If I remember correctly, your response went something like this “that’s sad…there must be something more going on in their lives for them to be in that situation”.
Let me know when you find a govt. program that “gets it done”
Oh, everyday I have the pleasure of helping serve people who would not be able to afford health care were it not for their Medicare/Medicaid coverage. Yes, yes, I know those programs are supposedly going to hell in a handbasket, but for today and all the previous days since their inception, they have been getting things done for people who depend on them.
So you don’t care if the action makes matters worse? As long as its not “immoral” ?
I was talking ‘solutions’ in that post and I’m pretty sure it consisted of more than that single sentence.
 
it amazes me the amount of denial and mental gymnastics GOP Catholics (Fr. Sirico and Acton Institute) go through to defend the intersts of the rich over the poor. It’s an example of cafeteria Catholicism at its finest.
In my opinion there is no bigger misconception than the republican party being the party of the rich.

There is no bigger example of cafeteria Catholicism than those defending their party who openly protects the right to kill the most innocent.

But I truly believe that the democratic party is the party made up of several groups that vote on their own special interest, completely “toning” out all else the anti Catholic/Christian democratic party stands for.
 
You have no source that private giving increased substantially under Reagan, but I believe you 100%. Why? Because Reagan was president during an economic boom. Private donations to charities always increase when the economy is good, and drop off significantly when the economy is bad. Exactly when they are needed most.

Donations to private charities are great. I donate to charity, everyone with the means should donate to charity. But donations to charity are not good enough. They can never be as broad or as effective as good government programs. Social Security keeps literally millions of senior citizens above the poverty level. ALL charitable giving in 2011 in the US was $290 billion. Social Security spending in 2011 was over $600 billion, or more than twice as much. It would be simply impossible and unreasonable to expect private charities to be able to have that type of impact.

Pope Francis knows this which is why he said what he did.
Well said! 😃
 
The discussion seems to have waned and turned from the main topic so I hope nobody will accuse me of hijacking the thread if I return to the oft mentioned cliche: the “idoltry of money”.

My essential claim is that cliches like “idoltry of money” serve to confuse and misdirect, not to explain and understand. The purpose of the cliche, of course, is to link “bad” contemporay behavior to the broken covenant by first temple Israelites by means of rhetoric alone without the burden of actually making an argument. It was unfortunate to see Pope Francis indulging in this.

The alternative to the reliance upon rhetoric and cliche is to analyze a situation, the actors and the choices which I will illustrate with Crossbones’ story.
Idolatry of money…well, let me throw this real-life example at you. I once worked for a corporation and there was an employee of mine that suffered from diabetes and it affected his health and his ability to do his job. He was a proud man and tried to continue doing his job without assistance, but I tried to do little things to make things easier (rearrange the room he worked in for less walking around (he lost a big toe) and created a procedure for his work that I could double check in case he did something wrong; I would catch it). Now, through the usual reorgs, he no longer worked for me, but there came a point where the company did layoffs and he was laid off. Now, I protested pretty strongly, as his health affected his job performance and he should have been told that he needed to go on disability. But that was more expensive. I consider what happened immoral.

I didn’t last much longer there.

So you ask what it is - to me, that’s what it is. An ill, suffering man was hurt because the money was more important than the right thing. Worship of money vs watching out for a fellow human being who was suffering.
Profits before people. Tsk, tsp, tsk.

But let’s look closer. Now it’s entirely possible that the above employee, let’s call him Sam, was simply part of the layoff just as others were. But let’s assume the worst, as implied, that he was discarded because he was an unpofitable employee due to his poor health. Clearly Sam suffered as a result of the layoff.

Notice, first, that we have Sam vs. “company”. But in reality there were managers who made the decisions for the company, a company being a legal entity. And not only managers but also shareholders. Who did the managers serve? The employees or the shareholders? And what was the situation of the shareholders? The usual assumption is that they are greedy fat cats but, in fact, most shareholders are ordinary folk saving and investing and very often they are retired and surviving on their pension. For all we know, there may be shareholders who are, themselves, only able to put food on the table because the company pays dividends. It is these flesh and blood people who hire the managers to run the company and it is they who will suffer if the company fails.

You might say, well, one unprofitable person doesn’t make a difference. But if you establish the principle that it is immoral to lay off unprofitable employees there will not be only one, I assure you. In fact, you will end up with employees who are unprofitable by choice and this has been demonstrated by the behavior of unions and by workers in communist countries.

But that’s not all. Because there are also other employees. Insofar as the company was in difficulty, as layoffs imply, not only the shareholders but other employees are at risk. If unprofitable employees are retained and profitable employees are laid off it is only a matter of time before the company will fall into bankruptcy and then every employee loses his job.

And what about customers. They are flesh and blood people too. Companies exist to serve customers but if the company employs employees who can’t do their job (due to ill health) then they suffer. At least until they switch to another company.

All of the above has nothing whatsoever to do with money. It is all about people fulfilling their respective roles. Money is just a tool used to aid in the decisions that each makes in the coordination of their choices and actions.

We could just as easily call this an incident of the idoltry of shareholders, customers, and other employees.

The bottom line is that for-profit companies are ill suited to the role of charity. That’s why we have charitable organizations. I think it’s great that Sam tried to continue in his job rather than take charity, I wish more people had that attitude. But in Sam’s case it was simply not practical and he needed to recognize that at some point. If Sam had the forsight to have saved and invested he could probably live off the dividends of his investments. Provided, of coures, that the companies he invests in are run profitably.
 
Does economic growth, encouraged by a free market, inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world?

Should we defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation?
 
Oh, everyday I have the pleasure of helping serve people who would not be able to afford health care were it not for their Medicare/Medicaid coverage. Yes, yes, I know those programs are supposedly going to hell in a handbasket, but for today and all the previous days since their inception, they have been getting things done for people who depend on them.
My challenge to you would be to only define something as “working” only if it is sustainable. We could say that the government could spend $1T on a single hamburger and give it to a hungry person and say the program worked. But that would not be sustainable.

Government programs are inherently not cost effective. Part of the problem is that the government is not a good steward of the taxpayers money, and is not held accountable by those who like the good intentions of whatever government program they like. There would be so much more mutual agreement and common ground if the people who spend the money, or the people who vote for those who spend the money, actually cared about being good stewards of that money. Nope, they continually act like those who pay the bills just don’t pay enough, and that if they just had a little bit more, they could get those programs to “work”.
 
Does economic growth, encouraged by a free market, inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world?

Should we defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation?
No, no.
 
Does economic growth, encouraged by a free market, inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world?
No, it does not, if simply because poverty is not only about money but also about an imbalance of power. Generally speaking, the poor have less of a voice, less of a say and less freedom even in their personal decision-making. Even when those with power actually do care about the needs of the poor, it is too often in a manner that imports external solutions rather than looking to the disadvantaged to help craft solutions to their own problems. Many poor people know what they need - what they lack are the resources to implement change.

But what is the most common approach? To assume that the poor lack knowledge regarding their own lives (otherwise, obviously they wouldn’t be poor :rolleyes:), and to ‘help’ them by imposing control over their lives. That’s really sad, because while they don’t have all the answers, the poor are among the most creative and resilient people I’ve ever been honored to meet.
 
My challenge to you would be to only define something as “working” only if it is sustainable. We could say that the government could spend $1T on a single hamburger and give it to a hungry person and say the program worked. But that would not be sustainable.

Government programs are inherently not cost effective. Part of the problem is that the government is not a good steward of the taxpayers money, and is not held accountable by those who like the good intentions of whatever government program they like. There would be so much more mutual agreement and common ground if the people who spend the money, or the people who vote for those who spend the money, actually cared about being good stewards of that money. Nope, they continually act like those who pay the bills just don’t pay enough, and that if they just had a little bit more, they could get those programs to “work”.
I look at issues from the perspective of a poor person, since my background is well suited to that. Sustainability is good and ideally should be the goal of any assistance, but being able to send my kids to school warmly clothed and with a full belly, is a more urgent priority than whether I will be able to do the same next winter. In the space of that year who knows what might happen: I might complete a degree, get a better-paying job and no longer need assistance. Perhaps I might be doing well enough to be able to turn around and give back. For today, my kids need warm clothes, full bellies and a shot at a good education.

From the point of view of those implementing a program of assistance, sustainability is not a minor consideration - it should be central to any planning/policy. But should I leave a man hungry beside a frozen lake until and unless the ice thaws and I can teach him to fish? I agree that there is inefficiency in government programs (actually, make that most large programs - private or public) but there is also the question of the range of resources and the ability to reach large numbers. One can’t just look at a single factor and judge solely on that.
 
Does economic growth, encouraged by a free market, inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world?
Please show me one person who has claimed this to be so. Just one.
Should we defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation?
It’s ironic that what we are seeing today is the absolute autonomy of government. While leftists complain about unfettered capiitalism, which exists nowhere, they keep growing the one institution that we are least able to resist: government.
 
I look at issues from the perspective of a poor person, since my background is well suited to that. Sustainability is good and ideally should be the goal of any assistance, but being able to send my kids to school warmly clothed and with a full belly, is a more urgent priority than whether I will be able to do the same next winter. In the space of that year who knows what might happen: I might complete a degree, get a better-paying job and no longer need assistance. Perhaps I might be doing well enough to be able to turn around and give back. For today, my kids need warm clothes, full bellies and a shot at a good education.

From the point of view of those implementing a program of assistance, sustainability is not a minor consideration - it should be central to any planning/policy. But should I leave a man hungry beside a frozen lake until and unless the ice thaws and I can teach him to fish? I agree that there is inefficiency in government programs (actually, make that most large programs - private or public) but there is also the question of the range of resources and the ability to reach large numbers. One can’t just look at a single factor and judge solely on that.
I get your point, but many of the things you list as necessary today can be delivered more cost effectively, but those in power don’t seem to care. A simple example is the performance of kids in DC public schools vs the performance of kids in Catholic schools. One report says that approximately $30K per student is spent in DC public schools while the average in Catholic schools is $5300. But do those in power care about results and costs? Apparently not, because the refrain is always “we need to spend more on education”. Same could be said for healthcare delivery, food deliver, etc.

One school system decided that since a large percentage of students needed free lunches, that ALL students should receive free lunches, regardless of the fact many families could afford to pay. So the taxpayer pays for a capable family’s free lunch.

The examples are very numerous. People who think more government programs, or more spending on existing government programs would get less pushback if they just pretended to care about money they take from others. They don’t…and thus we have pushback.
 
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