Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

[colmywaykurtz]

The posts from the left from the very beginning of this thread took the words of the pope to mean that he was at war with capitalism. Everything that has happened since follows from those kind of posts.

The fact that we have an encyclical here that devotes significant space to macro-economic matters shows that Francis considers himself at war with SOMETHING–and I think that something is the status quo.

Concerning this status quo, one of the facets of our existence to which he draws our attention is that there is SOMETHING in the impersonal mechanisms of markets and the ad hoc structure of economic relationships that is sufficiently destructive to human lives and human dignity that he calls for some kind of alteration.

 

[seekerz]

The fact that we have an encyclical here that devotes significant space to macro-economic matters shows that Francis considers himself at war with SOMETHING–and I think that something is the status quo.

Concerning this status quo, one of the facets of our existence to which he draws our attention is that there is SOMETHING in the impersonal mechanisms of markets and the ad hoc structure of economic relationships that is sufficiently destructive to human lives and human dignity that he calls for some kind of alteration.

At war with the status quo? Pretty insightful. This seems to be the case regardless of the issue - no more business as usual. Me like.

 

[Darryl1958]

The fact that we have an encyclical here that devotes significant space to macro-economic matters shows that Francis considers himself at war with SOMETHING–and I think that something is the status quo.

Concerning this status quo, one of the facets of our existence to which he draws our attention is that there is SOMETHING in the impersonal mechanisms of markets and the ad hoc structure of economic relationships that is sufficiently destructive to human lives and human dignity that he calls for some kind of alteration.

The status quo in America and Canada is as much socialism as it is capitalism, more so in Europe even.

God is a person. People are persons. Markets and governments however, like shovels and calculating machines are not persons. We ought not to anthropomorphize machines into people.
Markets don’t depersonalize people. People depersonalize people. Markets have no possibility of having a soul. People have every possibility of losing their own. It is those without souls who seek to destroy the souls of those who do, and they can use market forces or government agencies to do this, just as efficiently as murderers use guns and chain saws to the same effect.

 

[Darryl1958]

At war with the status quo? Pretty insightful. This seems to be the case regardless of the issue - no more business as usual. Me like.

Now we know what you are progressing from.
What are you progressing to?

 

[seekerz]

Now we know what you are progressing from.
What are you progressing to?

To a greater appreciation of God’s truth as expressed by the person of His Son via the Church He established.

 

[ishii]

You are correct. It is totally appropriate to discuss whether all recent Popes have been taking the time to comment on something (unfettered capitalism) that might not even exist in the world…I personally find that a very intriguing question.

Where do you think it exists, Seekerz?

Ishii

 

[estesbob]

The fact that we have an encyclical here that devotes significant space to macro-economic matters shows that Francis considers himself at war with SOMETHING–and I think that something is the status quo.

Concerning this status quo, one of the facets of our existence to which he draws our attention is that there is SOMETHING in the impersonal mechanisms of markets and the ad hoc structure of economic relationships that is sufficiently destructive to human lives and human dignity that he calls for some kind of alteration.

Francis didnt issue an encyclical. And war on who’s status quo? The US? Argentina? Uganda? Bangladesh?

 

[seekerz]

Where do you think it exists, Seekerz?

Ishii

Everywhere capitalism exists, there are some who will take it too far (and for whom the bottom line is like the holy grail), or some who will just sit back indifferently and expect “the market” to take care of everyone. Everywhere includes right here in the USA. Meantime those who experience the “not so gentle” fallout from these attitudes/practices need a voice. As of now, the Pope sees fit to be that voice. I say, more power to him!

Economic systems should operate to serve us, regardless of class - not the other way around.

 

[Darryl1958]

To a greater appreciation of God’s truth as expressed by the person of His Son via the Church He established.

That sounds heavenly.

Or maybe just utopian. …

 

[seekerz]

That sounds heavenly.

Or maybe just utopian. …

To my knowledge, it is the “salt of the earth” Christianity that we are all called to.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Everywhere capitalism exists, there are some who will take it too far (and for whom the bottom line is like the holy grail), or some who will just sit back indifferently and expect “the market” to take care of everyone. Everywhere includes right here in the USA. Meantime those who experience the “not so gentle” fallout from these attitudes/practices need a voice. As of now, the Pope sees fit to be that voice. I say, more power to him!

Economic systems should operate to serve us, regardless of class - not the other way around.

Some people prefer indulging in rhetoric to grappling with reality.

The first problem is this: free maket capitalism is an ideal. If you want to call mixed economies “capitalism” then do so honestly recognizing that they also include a growing government interferrence.

Second, what is currently being taken to extreme is not capitalism but government. Government has never bee so large or so involved outside of communism. Everywhere includes here in the USA. To put it simply, more and more we are becoming servants to government.

Third, I have repeatedly challenged everyone, and you in particularl, to find just one advocate of free market capitalism who claims that capitalism, alone, will bring justice. I’m still waiting.

It seems as if you regard Pope Francis as a tool for advacning your own political agenda. That us unfortunate. You blithely attribute the ills of the mixed economy to capitalism and ignore the role of charity entirely.

It would be better, I think, to inquire honestly both of Pope Francis words and the reality of the world around us rather than constructing marxist fairy tales and attacking straw men.

 

[KSU]

The status quo in America and Canada is as much socialism as it is capitalism, more so in Europe even.

God is a person. People are persons. Markets and governments however, like shovels and calculating machines are not persons. We ought not to anthropomorphize machines into people.
Markets don’t depersonalize people. People depersonalize people. Markets have no possibility of having a soul. People have every possibility of losing their own. It is those without souls who seek to destroy the souls of those who do, and they can use market forces or government agencies to do this, just as efficiently as murderers use guns and chain saws to the same effect.

 

[KSU]

It is interesting to see, after a line of (how many?) popes, that in the 21st century, translation of the pontiffs words has become such a quandary! Well, Jesus spoke Aramaic, which was then translated into…Greek/Latin…English - so how can we KNOW what he said about the poor and our attitudes to possessions? Hah, methinks that’s why we have been given a Church and a pope…

Hah, methinks you slipped up there and divulged that you know much more about Church teaching than you want us to believe!

What is your agenda, seekerz, my friend?

 

[ishii]

Everywhere capitalism exists, there are some who will take it too far (and for whom the bottom line is like the holy grail), or some who will just sit back indifferently and expect “the market” to take care of everyone. Everywhere includes right here in the USA. Meantime those who experience the “not so gentle” fallout from these attitudes/practices need a voice. As of now, the Pope sees fit to be that voice. I say, more power to him!

Economic systems should operate to serve us, regardless of class - not the other way around.

Unfettered: not restricted: not subject to limits or restrictions

So you think we have unfettered capitalism in America? Where in America do we have capitalism with no restrictions or limits?

Ishii

 

[Yeoman]

This is a clear clear message to all those Catholics that think they can support the Church on abortion and gay marriage all the while ignoring every other aspect of Church social teaching. Radical consumeristic capitalism is simply not acceptable. A just economic system is not optional.
.

This may be addressed elsewhere in this long thread, in which case there’s no need for anyone to respond, but I wonder to what extent this revives discussion on Distributism, which is an economic theory that was particularly developed by Catholic thinkers in the mid 20th Century, before World War Two seemingly ended discussion of it.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Unfettered: not restricted: not subject to limits or restrictions

So you think we have unfettered capitalism in America? Where in America do we have capitalism with no restrictions or limits?

This is the problem with the entire discussion.

If the status quo is "capitalism: that term is being used to represent our mixed political economy. “Unfettered capitalism” means no restritions on the status quo which, of course, includes many restrictions.

The term only make sense if by “capitalism” we mean an unrealized ideal, say the ideal of free market capitalism. The problem then is that we can’t look at what we have and attribute the failures we see to unfettered capitalism because we don’t have unfettered capitalism.

There is so much dishonesty in this discussion that it’s hard to be charitable.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

This may be addressed elsewhere in this long thread, in which case there’s no need for anyone to respond, but I wonder to what extent this revives discussion on Distributism, which is an economic theory that was particularly developed by Catholic thinkers in the mid 20th Century, before World War Two seemingly ended discussion of it.

It’s come up a couple times but not with any enthusiasm. Distributism is often offered as an alternative to free market capitalism but it is very problematic and does not carry the pontifical support that it’s adherents claim.

 

[ishii]

This is the problem with the entire discussion.

If the status quo is "capitalism: that term is being used to represent our mixed political economy. “Unfettered capitalism” means no restritions on the status quo which, of course, includes many restrictions.

The term only make sense if by “capitalism” we mean an unrealized ideal, say the ideal of free market capitalism. The problem then is that we can’t look at what we have and attribute the failures we see to unfettered capitalism because we don’t have unfettered capitalism.

There is so much dishonesty in this discussion that it’s hard to be charitable.

I agree - those who twist the Pope’s words into a blunt instrument to slam the free-market system in America and advance their liberal beliefs is shameful. Our system has limits and regulations (too many, imo). In this case, the word, “unfettered” is the ultimate strawman. I agree - its hard to be charitable to the intellectually dishonest.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

This may be addressed elsewhere in this long thread, in which case there’s no need for anyone to respond, but I wonder to what extent this revives discussion on Distributism, which is an economic theory that was particularly developed by Catholic thinkers in the mid 20th Century, before World War Two seemingly ended discussion of it.

There have been many discussions on distributism on CAF. Some have their own opinion on the subject, some don’t really know what distributism is. It seems some are trying to come up with the ultimate “catholic” system - rather than operate under Catholic principles or morality/ethics under the current system or systems. While there are intriguing aspect to distributism, I have problems with it- since in a distributist system there would be limits on how much money someone can make individually - who would decide that? And if there is someone powerful enough to tell someone that they have made enough and cannot make anymore, by what authority does someone exercise that power? Where does he/she get that power and what are the limits?

Ishii

 

[Darryl1958]

To my knowledge, it is the “salt of the earth” Christianity that we are all called to.

You are speaking in metaphors.
Which is fine, but there can be a problem when metaphors are written into the laws of the land.

The Kingdom of Heaven is normally considered a metaphor too, real, but transcendently real. I think it is utopian to try to legislate that Kingdom into existence through a system of laws and regulations.

You are advocating the Kingdom of Heaven. In terms of politics and economics, would that be a Catholic theocracy that you are advocating then?

Are you being utopian in any way?

The kingdom of heaven from my understanding is the kingdom of inner peace that one lives out ones life in, when one is morally, ethically and spiritually living in the Spirit?

You do not like the status quo. You do not like the way things exist in the social, political and economic spheres. That is how I am understanding your line of thought.

So you say that you are progressing from the status quo and to the Kingdom of Heaven.
Does the kingdom of heaven mean for you that state of inner peace of Christ that it means for me, or are you progressing to the Kingdom of Heaven as utopia.as theocracy even, complete with rules and regulations and laws governing how the economy runs and the distribution systems, etc… etc. etc?

It was a real question. Where are you progressing to? What does the Kingdom of Heaven mean to you, and how does this relate to the economy?