"Pope Francis Digs at Vatican's Narcissistic Nature.."

[platofan1983]

A couple of points conservative Catholics (and conservative Christians at large) are troubled by.

1. **Why didn’t Benedict have these problems? ** No one had to make excuses for him, which I feel what is going on here. It’s a very apologist sort of mindset with Francis. “He really didn’t mean it that way.” “The translation was wrong.” “It is the media’s spin on it.” “He’s really not changing anything the church is teaching or taught.” Okay. But this has happened three or four times in the past six months? I think the concern is that it is a pattern, for me at least.
2. We’re not troubled by the outreach to the world at all. It’s what Christ commanded. We are concerned at the manner it is being said and done. I grew up Catholic, and my wife Baptist, while they are still very conservative, many mainline Protestant churches are not. Because of this watered down Gospel they preach (I’m not saying that’s what Francis is preaching either), they have become irrelevant. When you appeal too much to how the world looks and too much to what the world likes, the world takes a look at you and says “You’re no different than me, what’s the point of following you?” It brings nothing to the table.

And there is a sort of attraction of saying you have to meet sinners where they are. And that is true. But we must remember after Christ had forgiven the woman at the well, he said, “Go and sin no more.”

1. We’re also not concerned with the removal of the pomp of the Vatican. Some old-timers might be, but I think the conservatives really just want the truth preached with clarity. Benedict did this with absolute beauty. Francis, seems to be muddying the waters. Benedict’s theme against a dictatorship of relativism was an awesome message for this age. And yet when I read Francis’ interviews, it seems like he is slowly flirting with that relativism Benedict fought so hard to prevent.
2. Much of what Francis is saying sounds so much like what the Protestant mega-churches preach. We must remember Christ had some stern words. Consider, “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple” Now be warned! I’m not trying to take these versus out of contexts because Christ preaches also on love (although I’m sure some will say I am) but the very message of Christ is a divisive one. When Paul said. “But we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.” To non-believers, it is utter foolishness. We must be aware of that fact.

This is not to say we should be hermits or retreat or not preach. God forbid! We need to evangelize more, even as the New Evangelize calls us to. But in the context of Christ.

1. I’m personally concerned that some of my most radical Catholic friends (who do not have a problem with abortion, women in the Priesthood, etc. (don’t ask me why they still remain Catholic)) like him as do a lot of secularists. And they aren’t liking him for preaching Christ is a new way either. I suspect they like him because they hope he is going to liberalize the church. These were some of the same people who hated the Catholic Church under Benedict. Now suddenly, poof! It’s a great place. If it’s not in the context of bringing people to Christ, this is not good. And we’re not against modernity either. Change in and of itself just is. So I’m not against change, but rather, change away from truth.

We also aren’t really judging either. Or want to like Benedict more and Francis less. Why did we as conservatives (and I don’t think there are mainly liberals on this Forum) love Benedict for his intelligence and clarity. I think he was preaching a deep truth in a very intellectual way. I know it’s not a either or of Benedict or Francis, I just think we’re very concerned about how Francis is “muddying the waters.” And the fact that he has to have apologists say to the most conservative Catholics “you really don’t get what he is saying” is bothersome because it’s happening more and more. We shouldn’t have to defend the Pope to other Catholics, we should have to defend Christ against the world. He has told us this much.

 

[shelby_sun]

Love Pope Francis, so Christ like. Let us all learn from his words!!!

 

[bilop]

A couple of points conservative Catholics (and conservative Christians at large) are troubled by.

1. **Why didn’t Benedict have these problems? ** No one had to make excuses for him, which I feel what is going on here. It’s a very apologist sort of mindset with Francis. “He really didn’t mean it that way.” “The translation was wrong.” “It is the media’s spin on it.” “He’s really not changing anything the church is teaching or taught.” Okay. But this has happened three or four times in the past six months? I think the concern is that it is a pattern, for me at least.
2. We’re not troubled by the outreach to the world at all. It’s what Christ commanded. We are concerned at the manner it is being said and done. I grew up Catholic, and my wife Baptist, while they are still very conservative, many mainline Protestant churches are not. Because of this watered down Gospel they preach (I’m not saying that’s what Francis is preaching either), they have become irrelevant. When you appeal too much to how the world looks and too much to what the world likes, the world takes a look at you and says “You’re no different than me, what’s the point of following you?” It brings nothing to the table.

And there is a sort of attraction of saying you have to meet sinners where they are. And that is true. But we must remember after Christ had forgiven the woman at the well, he said, “Go and sin no more.”

1. We’re also not concerned with the removal of the pomp of the Vatican. Some old-timers might be, but I think the conservatives really just want the truth preached with clarity. Benedict did this with absolute beauty. Francis, seems to be muddying the waters. Benedict’s theme against a dictatorship of relativism was an awesome message for this age. And yet when I read Francis’ interviews, it seems like he is slowly flirting with that relativism Benedict fought so hard to prevent.
2. Much of what Francis is saying sounds so much like what the Protestant mega-churches preach. We must remember Christ had some stern words. Consider, “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple” Now be warned! I’m not trying to take these versus out of contexts because Christ preaches also on love (although I’m sure some will say I am) but the very message of Christ is a divisive one. When Paul said. “But we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.” To non-believers, it is utter foolishness. We must be aware of that fact.

This is not to say we should be hermits or retreat or not preach. God forbid! We need to evangelize more, even as the New Evangelize calls us to. But in the context of Christ.

1. I’m personally concerned that some of my most radical Catholic friends (who do not have a problem with abortion, women in the Priesthood, etc. (don’t ask me why they still remain Catholic)) like him as do a lot of secularists. And they aren’t liking him for preaching Christ is a new way either. I suspect they like him because they hope he is going to liberalize the church. These were some of the same people who hated the Catholic Church under Benedict. Now suddenly, poof! It’s a great place. If it’s not in the context of bringing people to Christ, this is not good. And we’re not against modernity either. Change in and of itself just is. So I’m not against change, but rather, change away from truth.

We also aren’t really judging either. Or want to like Benedict more and Francis less. Why did we as conservatives (and I don’t think there are mainly liberals on this Forum) love Benedict for his intelligence and clarity. I think he was preaching a deep truth in a very intellectual way. I know it’s not a either or of Benedict or Francis, I just think we’re very concerned about how Francis is “muddying the waters.” And the fact that he has to have apologists say to the most conservative Catholics “you really don’t get what he is saying” is bothersome because it’s happening more and more. We shouldn’t have to defend the Pope to other Catholics, we should have to defend Christ against the world. He has told us this much.

Great post platofan. You summarize the concerns very succinctly.

God Bless

 

[SaintAugustine]

Love Pope Francis, so Christ like. Let us all learn from his words!!!

Absolutely. We’ve been blessed by the Holy Spirit with fantastic Popes. In my 23-years of Catholic experience, we’ve had a soon-to-Saint, a brilliant theologian and now we have another good shepherd. Thank you, Holy Spirit.

 

[Julian_Bashir]

Love Pope Francis, so Christ like. Let us all learn from his words!!!

Since you missed my response to you, I’ll post it again lest we cast aside anyone.

Originally Posted by shelby sun

*Have you ever thought that maybe your interpretations on some things are wrong or could possible be wrong?

Like I have said usually the people that are sure they know so much actually know very little.

Working at a Jesuit school I can tell you with all certainty that by this point none of the priest would still be having a conversation with you and they would truly admire Bro. patience. *

Isn’t that the opposite of the message Pope Francis is preaching? We are to embrace with open arms people who may have willfully chosen to reject the Church for in some cases, their entire lives, which is a good thing.

Yet, we are to cut of dialogue with people who posted back and forth on a message board for a few minutes or hours? I don’t think the Pope is saying that AT ALL. The opposite in fact. You can’t have the message both ways.

Not saying this is the case, but people who felt alienated by the Church before francis are no more or less worthy of dialogue and an embrace than those who feel alienated by Pope Francis (not that Jaberwocky does…).

 

[Gricken]

I don’t understand, can’t Pope Francis have his own priorities and message? Does he have to fight the exact same battles Benedict did? Can’t he be his own pope? Apparently the answer is “no” according to a lot of people here. Unless his papacy is wholly devoted to fighting abortion, same sex marriage, and relativism, he isn’t being catholic enough. Love? End to Poverty? Peace? Save those things for the mega-churches. That’s isn’t what Catholics are about

Some of us are so wrapped up in doctrine that we forget the other half if the church. I am not saying doctrine is bad We need doctrine. No question about it. But what we don’t need is to talk about it 24/7. There is more to the church than being pro-life and being against homosexual “marriage” or fighting relativism. The world knows what we are against, Benedict made sure of that. Francis knows what we are against. But unlike Benedict, his message is not about what we are against. It is about what we are for. If some Catholics here are getting uneasy by hearing what Pope Francis is saying, it just goes to show that this is what we needed to hear.

**The Holy Spirit would not have guided us to a Pope who would lead the Church to the path of Relativism ** I think that’s something we all need to remember. Put your trust in the lord, put your trust in his vicar.

 

[Jaberwocky]

Where there is Christ, there is the Church.

I am not exactly impressed by that picture if that was the intent.

 

[Jaberwocky]

A couple of points conservative Catholics (and conservative Christians at large) are troubled by.

1. **Why didn’t Benedict have these problems? ** No one had to make excuses for him, which I feel what is going on here. It’s a very apologist sort of mindset with Francis. “He really didn’t mean it that way.” “The translation was wrong.” “It is the media’s spin on it.” “He’s really not changing anything the church is teaching or taught.” Okay. But this has happened three or four times in the past six months? I think the concern is that it is a pattern, for me at least.
2. We’re not troubled by the outreach to the world at all. It’s what Christ commanded. We are concerned at the manner it is being said and done. I grew up Catholic, and my wife Baptist, while they are still very conservative, many mainline Protestant churches are not. Because of this watered down Gospel they preach (I’m not saying that’s what Francis is preaching either), they have become irrelevant. When you appeal too much to how the world looks and too much to what the world likes, the world takes a look at you and says “You’re no different than me, what’s the point of following you?” It brings nothing to the table.

And there is a sort of attraction of saying you have to meet sinners where they are. And that is true. But we must remember after Christ had forgiven the woman at the well, he said, “Go and sin no more.”

1. We’re also not concerned with the removal of the pomp of the Vatican. Some old-timers might be, but I think the conservatives really just want the truth preached with clarity. Benedict did this with absolute beauty. Francis, seems to be muddying the waters. Benedict’s theme against a dictatorship of relativism was an awesome message for this age. And yet when I read Francis’ interviews, it seems like he is slowly flirting with that relativism Benedict fought so hard to prevent.
2. Much of what Francis is saying sounds so much like what the Protestant mega-churches preach. We must remember Christ had some stern words. Consider, “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple” Now be warned! I’m not trying to take these versus out of contexts because Christ preaches also on love (although I’m sure some will say I am) but the very message of Christ is a divisive one. When Paul said. “But we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.” To non-believers, it is utter foolishness. We must be aware of that fact.

This is not to say we should be hermits or retreat or not preach. God forbid! We need to evangelize more, even as the New Evangelize calls us to. But in the context of Christ.

1. I’m personally concerned that some of my most radical Catholic friends (who do not have a problem with abortion, women in the Priesthood, etc. (don’t ask me why they still remain Catholic)) like him as do a lot of secularists. And they aren’t liking him for preaching Christ is a new way either. I suspect they like him because they hope he is going to liberalize the church. These were some of the same people who hated the Catholic Church under Benedict. Now suddenly, poof! It’s a great place. If it’s not in the context of bringing people to Christ, this is not good. And we’re not against modernity either. Change in and of itself just is. So I’m not against change, but rather, change away from truth.

We also aren’t really judging either. Or want to like Benedict more and Francis less. Why did we as conservatives (and I don’t think there are mainly liberals on this Forum) love Benedict for his intelligence and clarity. I think he was preaching a deep truth in a very intellectual way. I know it’s not a either or of Benedict or Francis, I just think we’re very concerned about how Francis is “muddying the waters.” And the fact that he has to have apologists say to the most conservative Catholics “you really don’t get what he is saying” is bothersome because it’s happening more and more. We shouldn’t have to defend the Pope to other Catholics, we should have to defend Christ against the world. He has told us this much.

I have to say, this is a very well articulated post and probably should be the OP of a thread. Would you post a new thread with this as the first post? I think this post can be a nice foundation for discussion.

 

[Abba]

Great post platofan. You summarize the concerns very succinctly.

God Bless

He does? Good to know. I am going to take a close look at the post.

Really! Is that what all the fuzz is about? Will it make a difference if the concerns are addressed or are people having to much fun criticizing the Pope and pretending to be Popes in front of their monitors? We need to be responsible when we present ourselves as Catholics to the world and on the world wide web. We need to behave as Christians not just when we go to Church on Sundays but also with what we type on the internet most especially as more people are reading what we are writing and we may be influencing people and we do not want to misdirect. We want to bring our faith to the world and present it properly and give witness to it. Keep in mind that there are people who love to criticize the Pope and do so for their own reasons and have even made a profession out of it. These people will put fuel in the fire just to watch the laity make a fuzz (for a lack of a better expression).

 

[Jaberwocky]

After a lot of discussions (close to 200 posts now), what I have realized is that most people here on CAF who tend to see nothing wrong with the interpretations of the interview already hold a very distorted view of Church teaching.

Here is a list

1. We should accept unrepentant sinners in to the Church (seems to think that God’s redemption is forcefully applied to all without the free-will to reject it)
2. The Church is anywhere Christ is which also means it must be a happy place. (God forbid it be a Cross with a mother crying watching her son Crucified. Or a voice in the wilderness crying out to repent. That certainly cannot be where Christ is)
3. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for being too obsessed with doctrine (forgetting that Jesus actually condemned their hypocrisy and refusal to repent of their actions. That would capture most of the unrepentant sinners today.)

The biggest slight of hand the devil has pulled seems to be to convince everyone that unrepentant sinners are not the Pharisees but its the Church that continuously chastises their lack of repentance that are the Pharisees.

Truth is that the Church is acting like Christ in the same way he chastised the Pharisees while the unrepentant sinners are acting like true Pharisees hardening their hearts against the Church.

 

[Gricken]

After a lot of discussions (close to 200 posts now), what I have realized is that most people here on CAF who tend to see nothing wrong with the interpretations of the interview already hold a very distorted view of Church teaching.

Here is a list

1. We should accept unrepentant sinners in to the Church (seems to think that God’s redemption is forcefully applied to all without the free-will to reject it)
2. The Church is anywhere Christ is which also means it must be a happy place. (God forbid it be a Cross with a mother crying watching her son Crucified. Or a voice in the wilderness crying out to repent. That certainly cannot be where Christ is)
3. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for being too obsessed with doctrine (forgetting that Jesus actually condemned their hypocrisy and refusal to repent of their actions. That would capture most of the unrepentant sinners today.)

The biggest slight of hand the devil has pulled seems to be to convince everyone that unrepentant sinners are not the Pharisees but its the Church that continuously chastises their lack of repentance that is the Pharisees.

Truth is that the Church is acting like Christ in the same way he chastised the Pharisees while the unrepentant sinners are acting like true Pharisees hardening their hearts against the Church.

1: Of course we should accept everyone in the church. If they are unrepentant then they aren’t really in the church at all now are they?

2: God forbid that the church could ever possibly be a happy place.Where people are rejoicing and singing praise and welcoming others. Certainly that is not where Christ is

3: As I stated before, there is nothing wrong with doctrine. The problem is that so many people limit themselves to only doctrine. The church is far more than it’s stance on abortion, relativism, and same sex “marriage” (correct though those stances may be)

Truth is that so many people get so caught up in chastising that they forget to love. Truth is that we get so worried about the evils of the world that we forget the good we can still do. Truth is that those people who get worried about what Pope Francis is saying need to have a little bit more faith in the man chosen to lead our church.

 

[McCall1981]

A couple of points conservative Catholics (and conservative Christians at large) are troubled by.

1. **Why didn’t Benedict have these problems? ** No one had to make excuses for him, which I feel what is going on here. It’s a very apologist sort of mindset with Francis. “He really didn’t mean it that way.” “The translation was wrong.” “It is the media’s spin on it.” “He’s really not changing anything the church is teaching or taught.” Okay. But this has happened three or four times in the past six months? I think the concern is that it is a pattern, for me at least.
2. We’re not troubled by the outreach to the world at all. It’s what Christ commanded. We are concerned at the manner it is being said and done. I grew up Catholic, and my wife Baptist, while they are still very conservative, many mainline Protestant churches are not. Because of this watered down Gospel they preach (I’m not saying that’s what Francis is preaching either), they have become irrelevant. When you appeal too much to how the world looks and too much to what the world likes, the world takes a look at you and says “You’re no different than me, what’s the point of following you?” It brings nothing to the table.

And there is a sort of attraction of saying you have to meet sinners where they are. And that is true. But we must remember after Christ had forgiven the woman at the well, he said, “Go and sin no more.”

1. We’re also not concerned with the removal of the pomp of the Vatican. Some old-timers might be, but I think the conservatives really just want the truth preached with clarity. Benedict did this with absolute beauty. Francis, seems to be muddying the waters. Benedict’s theme against a dictatorship of relativism was an awesome message for this age. And yet when I read Francis’ interviews, it seems like he is slowly flirting with that relativism Benedict fought so hard to prevent.
2. Much of what Francis is saying sounds so much like what the Protestant mega-churches preach. We must remember Christ had some stern words. Consider, “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple” Now be warned! I’m not trying to take these versus out of contexts because Christ preaches also on love (although I’m sure some will say I am) but the very message of Christ is a divisive one. When Paul said. “But we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.” To non-believers, it is utter foolishness. We must be aware of that fact.

This is not to say we should be hermits or retreat or not preach. God forbid! We need to evangelize more, even as the New Evangelize calls us to. But in the context of Christ.

1. I’m personally concerned that some of my most radical Catholic friends (who do not have a problem with abortion, women in the Priesthood, etc. (don’t ask me why they still remain Catholic)) like him as do a lot of secularists. And they aren’t liking him for preaching Christ is a new way either. I suspect they like him because they hope he is going to liberalize the church. These were some of the same people who hated the Catholic Church under Benedict. Now suddenly, poof! It’s a great place. If it’s not in the context of bringing people to Christ, this is not good. And we’re not against modernity either. Change in and of itself just is. So I’m not against change, but rather, change away from truth.

We also aren’t really judging either. Or want to like Benedict more and Francis less. Why did we as conservatives (and I don’t think there are mainly liberals on this Forum) love Benedict for his intelligence and clarity. I think he was preaching a deep truth in a very intellectual way. I know it’s not a either or of Benedict or Francis, I just think we’re very concerned about how Francis is “muddying the waters.” And the fact that he has to have apologists say to the most conservative Catholics “you really don’t get what he is saying” is bothersome because it’s happening more and more. We shouldn’t have to defend the Pope to other Catholics, we should have to defend Christ against the world. He has told us this much.

This is an absolutely awesome post, thank you for saying it so clearly

 

[Abba]

I am taken a back by the threads and posts regarding Pope Francis and how many criticize him. I think the best humble advice that I can give is for people not to join the herd. People need to think as individuals. If you have a problem understanding some of what the Pope is saying, perhaps, you can start a thread and humbly ask people to explain it to you. You may or may not understand or agree, but be receptive to the explanations and walk away and think about it on your own. After all, the point is to understand not to just argue and criticize, right? I don’t see it as right for all the thread on Pope Francis to be bombarded with criticisms. It is just not right at all.

Meanwhile, I have this wonderful joy inside of me that wants to explode. I am so happy to hear about Pope Francis. Really, I have directed my attention to him just this week or so and my heart wants to explode with joy. What a contrast to the reaction of other people towards him which I have witnessed on these threads.

Well, I don’t have anything smart to say right now. For those of you who are experiencing what I am:

REJOICE!
REJOICE!
REJOICE!

Spiritually, I want to go and dance in the streets with my fellow Catholics like David once did.

I am witnessing the dawn of a new era in the Catholic Church and only the Holy Spirit could shined this light on the Gospel. I will humbly follow the Holy Father. It’s what we should all do.

Peace

 

[SaintAugustine]

I am taken a back by the threads and posts regarding Pope Francis and how many criticize him. I think the best humble advice that I can give is for people not to join the herd. People need to think as individuals. If you have a problem understanding some of what the Pope is saying, perhaps, you can start a thread and humbly ask people to explain it to you. You may or may not understand or agree, but be receptive to the explanations and walk away and think about it on your own. After all, the point is to understand not to just argue and criticize, right? I don’t see it as right for all the thread on Pope Francis to be bombarded with criticisms. It is just not right at all.

Meanwhile, I have this wonderful joy inside of me that wants to explode. I am so happy to hear about Pope Francis. Really, I have directed my attention to him just this week or so and my heart wants to explode with joy. What a contrast with what I have been witnessing is the reaction of other people towards him.

Well, I don’t have anything smart to say right now. For those of you who are experiencing what I am:

REJOICE!
REJOICE!
REJOICE!

Spiritually, I want to go and dance in the streets with my fellow Catholics like David once did.

I am witnessing the dawn of a new era in the Catholic Church and only the Holy Spirit could shined this light on the Gospel. I will humbly follow the Holy Father. It’s what we should all do.

Peace

Um…I love our new Pope, but I think your enthusiasm is a little overstated. “A new era?” I mean, I love his approach, but he hasn’t said anything new. It is just the delivery that is different. We’ve been blessed with great Popes in the last few decades (the only ones I have experienced). Francis is certainly right up there with JPII and Benedict XVI.

 

[Jaberwocky]

1: Of course we should accept everyone in the church. If they are unrepentant then they aren’t really in the church at all now are they?

2: God forbid that the church could ever possibly be a happy place.Where people are rejoicing and singing praise and welcoming others. Certainly that is not where Christ is

3: As I stated before, there is nothing wrong with doctrine. The problem is that so many people limit themselves to only doctrine. The church is far more than it’s stance on abortion, relativism, and same sex “marriage” (correct though those stances may be)

Truth is that so many people get so caught up in chastising that they forget to love. Truth is that we get so worried about the evils of the world that we forget the good we can still do. Truth is that those people who get worried about what Pope Francis is saying need to have a little bit more faith in the man chosen to lead our church.

Doctrine and Dogma form a major part of the Church. In fact, if you were to throw it all away, there is nothing other than an arbitrary “experience” you attribute to Jesus. You do not know what he is like, what he taught or what he demands of you.

Your reply also highlights the other major issue. You seem to think that chastising a persons wrongs is an act contrary to love. That is incorrect. To chastise and instruct the ignorant on their wrong ways is a spiritual act of charity which ranks high above an act of temporal charity like feeding the poor.

Therefore your post is a confirmation that many have indeed misunderstood the Pope to be saying that God’s mercy and love are contending with justice, dogma, doctrine etc.

 

[Abba]

Um…I love our new Pope, but I think your enthusiasm is a little overstated. “A new era?” I mean, I love his approach, but he hasn’t said anything new. It is just the delivery that is different. We’ve been blessed with great Popes in the last few decades (the only ones I have experienced). Francis is certainly right up there with JPII and Benedict XVI.

No, he has not said anything new. Yes, he is right up there with JPII and Benedict XVI and isn’t that amazing! That’s the Holy Spirit! Imagine a human organization producing these three great distinct yet wonderful leaders. Can you?. As for the new era, I am aware that we need to watch the words we select and I chose those words knowing fully well that they may be called to my attention. Yet, I typed them because that’s what I perceive. Why? Well, the Pope said himself: “This is the beginning of a church with an organization that is not just top-down but also horizontal,” and he plans a different approach versus a culture war he wants to take Christ to pagan lands, if you will. Jesus wants to be taken there - so let’s do it!

 

[Jaberwocky]

No, he has not said anything new. Yes, he is right up there with JPII and Benedict XVI and isn’t that amazing! That’s the Holy Spirit! Imagine a human organization producing these three great distinct yet wonderful leaders. Can you?. As for the new era, I am aware that we need to watch the words we select and I chose those words knowing fully well that they may be called to my attention. Yet, I typed them because that’s what I perceive. Why? Well, the Pope said himself: “This is the beginning of a church with an organization that is not just top-down but also horizontal,” and he plans a different approach versus a culture war he wants to take Christ to pagan lands, if you will. Jesus wants to be taken there - so let’s do it!

Yes, lets certainly do that. But lets not forget that we are not dealing with a Pagan world but a world that is post-Christian. The West is a place that has rejected Christianity, its own heritage. One could even say that we have a case where men and women have heard the gospel and rejected it.

 

[Megan7]

Enough of this , the Pope the person has responsibility with how he interacts with the media, I’ve never seen so many interviews by a Pope.

"Blame the Media " card gets old. It’s okay to admit the Pope can make mistakes.

The interview is pretty bad. There are many errors in it. That Register article is bad in itself. *Too bad it can’t blame translation errors. *

1. The correct translation is not a relief, because the basis of the statement is THE CONSCIENCE of the individual. The conscience is not the end all be all, because we understand there is a bad conscience. That is what is absent in the interviews. That is what the NCR following these interviews out of a false sense of duty to spin, leave out. I believe Jimmy Akin on radio told a listener last week, that that’s what we are supposed to do. We are all called to follow our conscience. (in a nothing to see here fashion)
   There exists A Mal-formed conscience. This is CHURCH teaching. If the person lost his sense of good, no matter how much his conscience tells him to go towards what is “right” because if that person is a slave to sin? Cannot just rely on his conscience anymore. There is no life of grace in him. One with sociopathetic behavior will commit more crimes for instance, because he has bad will to convince himself what he is doing is good. In spite of what’s written in his heart.

This is true because Sin darkens the intellect and weakens the will. THAT is Church teaching.

2

It’s not that the True Good ever “Fails” to manifest itself. It’s that the WILL can reject Christ knocking on the door. THAT is what is missing. We are not automatons, all eventually moved by and toward grace! The intellect can fail.

ex: How many of us have convinced ourselves even when brought up in the faith that something is NOT even a sin?? How many threads are there on here, that questions if premarital sex or masturbation is a sin. How many baptized Christians tell themselves that there are certain “goods” justified by scripture or one’s own rationalization. (i.e. Slavery)

Take it further. Let us say something perceived as “good” to the man in the 21st century, is interchangeable with something that is not a “sin against others” See how the statement itself is still insufficient??
Without a distinction that ultimately a man led out of the darkness is assisted by GOD himself, is the biggest thing one can leave out when making loaded statements as above with over-emphasis on the individual and HIS conscience when it has no relation to God.
The “good” can be a relative term.

“Brotherhood” is also not encouraging. Because its Man oriented, and not God oriented.
We hear about “good” but what is good, when there is no mention of SIN?

One can rely on one’s CONSCIENCE so much he can construct his relation and image of God, in HIS image, rather than see himself in God’s image.

1. The NCR tries to foolishly relive Catholics that Pope Benedict said the same thing (which is a reach! ) by citing another fallible interview specifically his statement about condoms. The mistake where he brought up a remote academically based HYPOTHETICAL which was so specific it is not the same as the general statement said by Pope Francis. That’s what you’re relying upon?!?

So now all of a sudden we’re relying on previous fallible interviews that caused scandal of two years ago, to clarify current fallible interviews two years later???

Pray for the Pope, for his sake, not for those who are faithful Catholics.
I wouldn’t even bother trying to spin it, the spindoctors and mouthpieces need to just stay silent, or at the very minimum say its erroneous and fallible. Anyone who is part of the SENSUS FIDELIUM, should just be saddened by these interviews, not ready with a quick trigger to draw at the Big Bad Media or the Pope.

Another thing is these private interviews are just problematic because WE know Pope Benedict and JPII have warned against these things

"And I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place."

(So those who want to control populations??? They truly believe that is their idea of good, against the evil of humanity. A parasite to Earth. )

Again, this proposes that the individual can rely on his OWN powers. For example if I read this statement. In my mind, I am thinking that we need to question the Pope doing all these interviews, I THINK that is a good, but I can’t rely on what I THINK… But just because Pope Francis suggests that in an interview? I won’t go out and do it brazenly.
I am not bound by an interview. I have to seek forming a good conscience and seek what the Magisterium states and look how the Church faithful acted in History.

Thank you for your post, I will read it later on. God bless you

 

[SaintAugustine]

No, he has not said anything new. Yes, he is right up there with JPII and Benedict XVI and isn’t that amazing! That’s the Holy Spirit! Imagine a human organization producing these three great distinct yet wonderful leaders. Can you?. As for the new era, I am aware that we need to watch the words we select and I chose those words knowing fully well that they may be called to my attention. Yet, I typed them because that’s what I perceive. Why? Well, the Pope said himself: “This is the beginning of a church with an organization that is not just top-down but also horizontal,” and he plans a different approach versus a culture war he wants to take Christ to pagan lands, if you will. Jesus wants to be taken there - so let’s do it!

So, on the “beginning of a church with an organization…,” I agree he is making good changes. I don’t think that quite counts as a “new era.” As far as the “culture war,” I think it will still exist. I don’t think he is ushering in a new change there. He has tweaked the approach a little (basically, a don’t forget the rest of the Gospel, while continuing to fight the culture war). Taking Christ to pagan lands? You may not have been around during the JPII papacy. He traveled a lot…quite a lot. Benedict, as well, but not as much. Francis is certainly continuing their efforts, and that is a good thing.

As much as I love his humility and simplicity, I guess I’m not as over-the-top in my gushing enthusiasm. Not that I don’t love him and what he is doing, I just don’t see anything revolutionary…which is not a bad thing. I like the consistency and tradition of our Church.

I’m sorry if it sounds like I’m dampening* your* enthusiasm. I don’t mean to. If the perception of Francis helps people catch on fire for the faith, that is a good thing! I guess I just fell in love with the Church through other means and, thanks to the Holy Spirit, enjoyed the guidance of our Church all along my path.

 

[triumphguy]

I am not exactly impressed by that picture if that was the intent.

I don’t have a need to impress you.