"Pope Francis Digs at Vatican's Narcissistic Nature.."

[JReducation]

It’s a sad day where vocal dissenters are in love with the Pope. It’s a sad day when the secular world is in love with the Pope. Stop blaming mistranslations, folks. It is possible that the Holy Father is giving just straight up off the cuff interviews, riddled with concepts that your average Catholic isn’t going to understand, and that border on dangerous theological grounds. Since Francis has become Pope, I see more and more dissenters saying they’re coming back to the Church, well if they had been moved by Catholic teaching they never would have dissented and wouldn’t have needed apparent Papal license to return. Giving the Holy Father all the respect he is due as Pope, some of you must understand that some of us do not like Francis at all.

Well said.

I strongly disagree. I don’t think it’s well said at all.

There are many reasons for not liking a person, but those reasons don’t make any difference in the grand scheme of things. Whether or not I like you doesn’t change who you are, nor does it prove that I’m right and you’re wrong, because I don’t like you.

To say that the pope has made statements that go to the edge is very subjective. It all depends on how good of a theologian you are. If you are as good a theologian as he is, then you have every right to give him a peer review. If you’re not, then you simply have an opinion based on your limited understanding of theology. For those who do not know, Pope Francis and Pope Benedict have the exact same theological degree. The difference in the two men is that Francis did not spend his life teaching theology. Most of his life was in religious life and pastoral care. Most of Pope Benedict’s life was in teaching and governance. There is a tendency to assume that Pope Francis is not well versed in theology, because unlike John Paul and Benedict, he spent most of his time in the trenches.

As far as dissenters and other non acceptable people coming home to the Church, I believe that it is sad that a Catholic would make such a statement and I would hope that I’m misunderstanding it. The Franciscan in me almost jumped out of my habit when I read this paragraph. My religious community works exclusively in the proclamation of the Gospel of Life. We deal with people involved in abortion, euthanasia, contraception, same-sex marriage, IVF, etc. We are great defenders of the family. Our most important ministry is doing penance for those who do not do penance. When I see some of these folks returning to the Church, I praise God that he has accepted my dismal penances.

As superior, I always say this to my brothers and you may want to consider it and pray over it.

Always remember that there is no one in this world that can outdo you in sin, if you set your heart on it. So focus on the good in others and the evil in yourself.

When I look at the lives of some saints who were rascals of the first class and how they returned to the Church I have to smile and give God credit for being crafty. God wants to save us so much and his mercy is so infinite, that he will setup rabbit holes, if that’s what it takes to get us into the hospital. He’ll deal with the rest later.

I offer myself as an example. I did not become Catholic because I believed in Jesus Christ. That came somewhere along the journey. My first attraction to Catholicism was that the Capuchin Franciscan Friars were the only Gentiles in our home town who treated Jewish kids and black kids with kindness. I was a Jewish kid and was mystified by these men. I wondered why they were so different, almost weird compared to other Gentiles.

As a student at their school I was never expected to participate in any of the religious activities. I did, however, have to take the religious education classes. Those were part of the academic curriculum. I had to know what Catholics believed and other things Catholic, but the friars did not require or even suggest that I believe any of it. What they kept repeating was that they believed it and why they believed it. Obviously the why was Jesus Christ.

Before I knew it, I was well inside Catholicism, the Venus Fly Trap closed and here I am.

 

[triumphguy]

Right. But, that is how you handle them once they come to the hospital. Recognizing the fact that the medical industry does a lot of advertising warning about illnesses and lifestyle dangers, your and the Pope’s analogy would have to agree that warning people about sin and the dangers of sinful lifestyles is also called for.

Now, once they come to the hospital, you treat them with love and help them heal.

The only reason your use of the analogy failed is that you prefer to ignore all of the warnings about dangers that absolutely do happen on a regular basis…

When was the last time you saw a smoker look at a health warning on a pack of cigarettes and put down the pack?

 

[Jaberwocky]

I strongly disagree. I don’t think it’s well said at all.

There are many reasons for not liking a person, but those reasons don’t make any difference in the grand scheme of things. Whether or not I like you doesn’t change who you are, nor does it prove that I’m right and you’re wrong, because I don’t like you.

To say that the pope has made statements that go to the edge is very subjective. It all depends on how good of a theologian you are. If you are as good a theologian as he is, then you have every right to give him a peer review. If you’re not, then you simply have an opinion based on your limited understanding of theology. For those who do not know, Pope Francis and Pope Benedict have the exact same theological degree. The difference in the two men is that Francis did not spend his life teaching theology. Most of his life was in religious life and pastoral care. Most of Pope Benedict’s life was in teaching and governance. There is a tendency to assume that Pope Francis is not well versed in theology, because unlike John Paul and Benedict, he spent most of his time in the trenches.

The bolded/underlined part above is actually incorrect. One can say that the Pope has made statements that are more likely to be interpreted incorrectly as a complete lay person. Theology only enters the picture when one wants to find out what he actually said.

Given that what he said is actually Orthodox (which is the assumption that everyone here is operating on), then one can judge how easy or difficult it is for a person to arrive at the Orthodox view from what was said. Keep in mind that the Pope didn’t give the interview to a Theologian but an Atheist who probably has many misconceptions about the Church.

So the concerns raised by many faithful Catholics is a reasonable one that they can indeed make through observation. The words of the Pope are very difficult for the average person to interpret in an Orthodox way and as a result it is causing problems. I myself have already faced problems in my personal dialogue with non-believers as a result of these interviews. Last thing you want to hear is a person you love that you are trying to bring to Christ tell you that “Didn’t your Pope say to just follow your conscience?”

 

[Jaberwocky]

When was the last time you saw a smoker look at a health warning on a pack of cigarettes and put down the pack?

I have seen it happen. I have also seen many stop before they start after seeing the ads.

 

[gracepoole]

Nineveh repented because they knew that what they had committed were sins. The secular world is in love with Pope Francis because they think he is changing the moral laws of the Church because it is incompatible with God’s mercy.

Those are two different things.

The Prodigal son was also on the way home. As Bl. John Paul II indicated, this implies that the person had already repented. The father welcomed him because the son had repented.

Today the impression is that repentance is not necessary and we accept you for who you are. These were the words of a fellow Buddhist friend of mind regarding Pope Francis.

Wow, you’ve made some incredible assumptions here about others. You can’t possibly legitimately claim that those returning to the Church aren’t just as those from Nineveh were. You can’t possibly legitimately claim that those returning believe Pope Francis is changing moral laws. Your Buddhist friend is a nice example, but it’s quite a leap to claim that most think as he/she does.

 

[Country_Gal]

Back to the hospital analogy, most of the people needing hospital services are either very old or people who abuse their bodies with drugs, food, alcohol or cigarettes.

 

[Jaberwocky]

Wow, you’ve made some incredible assumptions here about others. You can’t possibly legitimately claim that those returning to the Church aren’t just as those from Nineveh were. You can’t possibly legitimately claim that those returning believe Pope Francis is changing moral laws. Your Buddhist friend is a nice example, but it’s quite a leap to claim that most think as he/she does.

If you truly think that any average Catholic can read the interview and understand they have to repent and then go to confession to enter back in to the Church, you are right.

But to my best ability, that is not possible and it is more likely and easier to interpret it in the opposite manner.

This probably means that you and I should agree to disagree.

 

[gracepoole]

If you truly think that any average Catholic can read the interview and understand they have to repent and then go to confession to enter back in to the Church, you are right.

But to my best ability, that is not possible and it is more likely and easier to interpret it in the opposite manner.

This probably means that you and I should agree to disagree.

Yes, I suppose so. I think Pope Francis is quite skilled in evangelization, having spent his entire adult life engaged in the process.

 

[SaintAugustine]

When was the last time you saw a smoker look at a health warning on a pack of cigarettes and put down the pack?

Ah…so you do recognize that the hospital analogy has to include the warnings about sin. You just disagree that it works.

I have known plenty of people who have quit smoking after being informed about the dangers to their health, rather than waiting for lung cancer or emphysema. My dad is one of them. He quit cold turkey, too. So, I disagree with your belief that those ads don’t work.

Have you noticed the general decline in smoking? What do you believe caused it? It wasn’t the awareness through ads and programs in the schools? Ask my kids about smoking, and they will tell you all about how bad it is for you. How is that different than teaching and preaching to people about the dangers of sin?

 

[SaintAugustine]

Back to the hospital analogy, most of the people needing hospital services are either very old or people who abuse their bodies with drugs, food, alcohol or cigarettes.

Right. And according to the analogy users, we should wait until people have sinned themselves to the point that they are close to death…then treat them at Church. Hopefully, none of them die before they make it to Church and end up in Hell, but hey…we don’t want to be judgmental…

 

[Jaberwocky]

Yes, I suppose so. I think Pope Francis is quite skilled in evangelization, having spent his entire adult life engaged in the process.

I do not presume either way but go with the evidence.

 

[Jaberwocky]

Ah…so you do recognize that the hospital analogy has to include the warnings about sin. You just disagree that it works.

I have known plenty of people who have quit smoking after being informed about the dangers to their health, rather than waiting for lung cancer or emphysema. My dad is one of them. He quit cold turkey, too. So, I disagree with your belief that those ads don’t work.

Have you noticed the general decline in smoking? What do you believe caused it? It wasn’t the awareness through ads and programs in the schools? Ask my kids about smoking, and they will tell you all about how bad it is for you. How is that different than teaching and preaching to people about the dangers of sin?

 

[triumphguy]

Back to the hospital analogy, most of the people needing hospital services are either very old or people who abuse their bodies with drugs, food, alcohol or cigarettes.

And most of the people who need the Church are those who…

 

[gracepoole]

I do not presume either way but go with the evidence.

You have evidence that a flock of people have flooded the Church, requesting baptism and denying basic Catholic teachings?

 

[JReducation]

The bolded/underlined part above is actually incorrect. One can say that the Pope has made statements that are more likely to be interpreted incorrectly as a complete lay person. Theology only enters the picture when one wants to find out what he actually said.

Given that what he said is actually Orthodox (which is the assumption that everyone here is operating on), then one can judge how easy or difficult it is for a person to arrive at the Orthodox view from what was said. Keep in mind that the Pope didn’t give the interview to a Theologian but an Atheist who probably has many misconceptions about the Church.

So the concerns raised by many faithful Catholics is a reasonable one that they can indeed make through observation. The words of the Pope are very difficult for the average person to interpret in an Orthodox way and as a result it is causing problems. I myself have already faced problems in my personal dialogue with non-believers as a result of these interviews. Last thing you want to hear is a person you love that you are trying to bring to Christ tell you that “Didn’t your Pope say to just follow your conscience?”

Do you make it your mission to go about telling people that you’re right and they’re wrong?

This is the fourth of fifth time that you have begun a statement with “this is incorrect”.

Where I come from, friars are taught to speak with gentleness and to disagree with great humility.

The point that I’m addressing is the statement made by the poster that Pope Francis has gone to a risky theological edge. That’s why I referred to theology.

As far as the interview itself is concerned, I will repeat what I have said several times on these threads. It was an interview, not a class, lecture or a decree of any kind. When people come to me with misconceptions as the example that you have given, I simply answer the same.

“It was an interview. There is more to it than can be said in an interview. If you want, I can explain it to you. Not everyone interviews well and not all interviews are reported well either. There are too many factors here to use this as sign post of what the pope believes. Again, I repeat, I can give you more information on the subject, if you care to read about it.” Then I leave it at that. From that point forward, a person who really wants to know the whole story or the whole truth, will follow up. A person who is looking for a loophole will find one no matter who does the speaking.

 

[triumphguy]

Right. And according to the analogy users, we should wait until people have sinned themselves to the point that they are close to death…then treat them at Church. Hopefully, none of them die before they make it to Church and end up in Hell, but hey…we don’t want to be judgmental…

That’s why you have to INVITE people in to the Church WHERE they are at.

Westboro Baptist Church are out there everyday preaching to the world about sin and damnation. How are their conversion rates?

We are better than that.

Actually we don’t have a choice to be anything BUT better than that.

The Church = Body of Christ

Christ who ate with sinners, tax collectors, prostitutes and even rich people
Christ who in Matthew 25 told us the parable of the sheep and goats. The king in this parable didn’t ask how many times the sheep or goats had been right, but whether they had clothed, fed, sheltered, visited the sick, poor, imprisoned etc.

Serve the least and you serve God.

The Priesthood exists to feed and serve the Church and especially us, the laity. We the laity exist to go into the world and serve Jesus there.

That’s where Pope Francis wants us - on the margins making a ruckus. Not shouting about how pure the church is, but inviting in ALL those that Jesus died and rose for.

 

[Jaberwocky]

Do you make it your mission to go about telling people that you’re right and they’re wrong?

This is the fourth of fifth time that you have begun a statement with “this is incorrect”.

Where I come from, friars are taught to speak with gentleness and to disagree with great humility.

The point that I’m addressing is the statement made by the poster that Pope Francis has gone to a risky theological edge. That’s why I referred to theology.

As far as the interview itself is concerned, I will repeat what I have said several times on these threads. It was an interview, not a class, lecture or a decree of any kind. When people come to me with misconceptions as the example that you have given, I simply answer the same.

“It was an interview. There is more to it than can be said in an interview. If you want, I can explain it to you. Not everyone interviews well and not all interviews are reported well either. There are too many factors here to use this as sign post of what the pope believes. Again, I repeat, I can give you more information on the subject, if you care to read about it.” Then I leave it at that. From that point forward, a person who really wants to know the whole story or the whole truth, will follow up. A person who is looking for a loophole will find one no matter who does the speaking.

Hmm, you might have a point about my tendency to just “you are incorrect”. I will watch out for it and try to minimize it in the future. Thanks!

On the issue of interviews, I see the matters a bit differently. Men and women today are not evil people. They are those who have fooled themselves in to believing some form of a lie (with ample help of the devil of-course).

The role of the Church should be to shed light to these men and women by presenting the truth. That presentation is weakened by these interviews because its very difficult for the average person to grasp the truths from it. They are more likely to hear it and continue with their lie as being affirmed even by the Pope. That is a missed opportunity as well as a strengthening of their beliefs.

Therefore I see the “loophole seeking crowd” as the ones that were lost due to the ambiguity which otherwise could have been challenged by explaining the truth in detail. Most of the loophole seeking crowd know the Church teaching but they do not know a good explanation for it. You would be surprised at the amount of young men and women I meet who go “Hmm, when you put it that way it does make sense” after hearing the basis for Church teaching.

Instead, the last two interviews made the Church look like an organization that was out of touch with reality that is condemned by the Pope himself. So what could you expect from the “loophole seeking crowd” from now on who already were repeating this mantra?

 

[SaintAugustine]

That’s why you have to INVITE people in to the Church WHERE they are at.

Westboro Baptist Church are out there everyday preaching to the world about sin and damnation. How are their conversion rates?

We are better than that.

Actually we don’t have a choice to be anything BUT better than that.

The Church = Body of Christ

Christ who ate with sinners, tax collectors, prostitutes and even rich people
Christ who in Matthew 25 told us the parable of the sheep and goats. The king in this parable didn’t ask how many times the sheep or goats had been right, but whether they had clothed, fed, sheltered, visited the sick, poor, imprisoned etc.

Serve the least and you serve God.

The Priesthood exists to feed and serve the Church and especially us, the laity. We the laity exist to go into the world and serve Jesus there.

That’s where Pope Francis wants us - on the margins making a ruckus.** Not shouting about how pure the church is**, but inviting in ALL those that Jesus died and rose for.

I agree with everything you said, of course, except your use of the straw man at the end. Who “shouts about how pure the church is?” We do invite all, but we also are truthful about what the Church teaches. That isn’t claiming the church is pure…just teaching and preaching Christ’s Gospel. Or, do you think the Gospel doesn’t include teaching/preaching about sin? I seem to recall a few parables, direct statements, sermons on some mount, etc. where Jesus may have mentioned sin, as well as forgiveness.

17
Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
18
Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.m
19
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.*
20
I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Teaching about Anger.*

21
“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors,n ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’*
22

• But I say to you, whoever is angry* with his brother will be liable to judgment,o and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
  23
  Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you,p
  24
  leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
  25
  Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him.q Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
  26
  Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

Teaching about Adultery.

27

• “You have heard that it was said,r ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
  28
  But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
  29
• If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away.s It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna.
  30
  And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna.
  Teaching about Divorce.
  31
• “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a bill of divorce.’t
  32
  But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.u

I don’t know about you, but I don’t think Pope Francis is asking us to skip that part…

We are supposed to be like Jesus, are we not? Um…He was pretty straightforward with His teaching, even as He hung around sinners.

P.S. I’m glad you abandoned the poor “hospital” analogy. It wasn’t really working, was it?

 

[triumphguy]

Not a straw man - I probably expressed myself wrong.
I mean instead of condemning the sin invite the sinner.

People need to be drawn to conversion so that they may turn from sin and do good.

People do this best in relationships with healthy community.

The RCIA process is aimed at doing exactly this.

In our group we have people in irregular relationships. That will change. Not because i wish it, or preach about it, but because they will see what is the right thing t do, and will do what is needed to make their relationships “regular.”

OTOH hand they know this is coming, because they’ve already filled in the RCIA forms, but they haven;t had to jump yet.

And I think the hospital analogy is fine.

The church should be an emergency ward for sinners.

 

[Gricken]

Some of you guys really underestimate the Pope. He isn’t stupid. He gives these interviews because he feels he has too. He knows very well that people are going to twist his words, misquote him, and maybe even abuse them, but he can’t let that stop him. It happened to Pope Benedict, and it happened to Pope John Paul II. The difference is that Pope Francis decided that the right way to deal with this is to ignore it. He has a message that he wants people to hear, and he’s going to speak it. A lot of the time, I would bet that the people here who are “distressed” with what Pope Francis is saying are the exact people he is talking to. It isn’t just the media and liberal Catholics who doesn’t get him, a lot of the hardline conservative Catholics don’t get him either! As my father is fond of saying “Let Pope Francis be Pope Francis” He isn’t a “liberal” pope, or a “conservative” pope. He’s a Catholic Pope.