"Pope Francis Digs at Vatican's Narcissistic Nature.."

[Abba]

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To the readers of this thread, my dear brothers and sisters, I am going to prepare a final and general defense for my position. I will argue that inherent in the priesthood is the nature of shepherd and as such priests are leaders of the communities they are put in charge of by their Bishops. I think it is a good point to be made because the laity who are not recognizing that it is the will of God for their priests to be the leaders of their parish (such as the example presented by Elizabeth502, which is to the letter in my parish, and it would not surprise me at all if she has actually been to my parish) can contemplate the matter and hopefully recognize it. I think it would benefit these parishes greatly if they allowed their priests to be their shepherds and stop telling the priests what to do and how to do it with an air of we pay your salary. I also think that it is a good point to make in this thread where the faithfuls who may already recognize their priests as their shepherds and reverence their priests may come to this thread and if a defense is not presented may consider that it is proper to think that a parish only needs a priests to stop by and administer the sacraments and then he can punch out.

I am just doing this as a faithful. I want to think the people of Catholic Answers Forum for giving me the opportunity to state my case.

May God bless you all,

Abba

 

[jimkhong]

I understand, some of us have obligations seven days a week.

The argument is on whether the nature of shepherd is inherent in the Catholic priesthood and I believe the matter is very conclusive. I am not experience this as a scholastic exercise. I actually have a tremendous amount of demand on my time, however, the matter raised on this thread is one that I consider very important to clarify for the good.

Pardon me? I don’t understand what you mean here. You joined the discussion to back up how a community does not need a priest to lead and that the nature of shepherd is not inherent in the priesthood and so a parish only needs a priest to administer the sacrament and then he can basically punch out. You noted that they are called pastor not because it has anything to do with shepherd but because they were sent to the country side hence ‘pastoral’.

C’est tout et plus rien - that’s all and nothing else (eso es todo y nada mas). I have not joined any catechism program that you may be offering. We obviously have a different understanding about some fundamental matters of the Catholic faith. I would never permit myself to learn from someone who’s understanding is fundamentally different from mine.

You have joined a debate/argument/disagreement and so the way it works is in dialogue form - you say - I say. People respond to the points the person holding a different position in the matter makes. You are not participating in a dialogue with me and are not responding to my questions nor acknowledging what I have said. Instead, you make a presentation with a lot of irrelevant information in the matter.

Btw, I like to give credit where credit is due and the person who points to Saint Ignatius of Antioch who you just re-quote without responding to my question regarding him is Lemaire. This is not a teaching session - I never signed up.

Now, from Elizabeth502 I can see myself learning. I agree with all her posts so far and she presents herself as someone who is competent. I actually signed up for a Benedictine spirituality online course which I have been missing because of this thread. To say, I am selective of who I learn from and I sign up for course as I see they would help my learning, understanding, generally to grow in the faith and help me better to imitate Jesus.

OK, you win the argument hands down. Goodbye and godbless.

 

[Abba]

Additionally, in the defense I am preparing, I will, of course, present arguments against the claim that a priest, once he is done administering the sacraments which is what he is really needed for according to the claim, can and should go back to the rank and file with the laity.

Thank you for your time.

 

[shelby_sun]

That may be true, but if the offence hasn’t been committed against Pope Francis himself then (outside of his priestly duty in Confession) Pope Francis is not in a position to grant mercy. And as a priest administering the Sacrament of Penance, the mercy of Christ through the priest, would be no different whether that priest is Pope Francis, Pope Benedict, or the local parish priest down the road from you.

I very much like Pope Francis, but I think there is a great danger of putting him up on a special pedestal. He may be our leader, but In the end he is just a man, and as far as dispensing God’s mercy, he is no different than any other priest.

Pope Francis is our pope, and he is taking our faith out there into the wider world with enthusiasm, but he is not special (no more so than any of our other popes have been). We ought not to treat him as particularly special, at least no more so than the other popes we have had.

You are right and I think Pope Francis is the first person who would tell us this. The best priest don’t want to be treated like Abba has said. They want to walk side by side with those in their community.

The point of the thread was to say that too many priest, especially high up in the Church. think they are above all others and are justifying actions that should simply not be taking place. Egos have gotten out of hand.

 

[Brendan_64]

The point of the thread was to say that too many priest, especially high up in the Church. think they are above all others and are justifying actions that should simply not be taking place. Egos have gotten out of hand.

Your comment is correct, particularly the part I’ve marked in bold. A priest is there to serve, and a parish priest is there to serve the congregation, and in doing so, serve God. His prime role is not to lead, but to serve. Leading people and having authority over people can pander to a person’s ego, whereas serving someone will not pander to a person’s ego. Perhaps that is why some clergy prefer to present themselves as leaders with authority, rather than men who serve.

 

[Abba]

A Defense for the Catholic Priesthood - Empowered Shepherds:

I should up front inform the readers that this is not a ‘scholarly’ work that will be ready for the press on a theology journal. I am not a scholar and am far from being one. To complicate matters even further, I do not only think linearly, I also think coherently (think Ontong-Javaneese). To say that, this presentation is not going to be in a scholarly format ( Intro, 1. (i), (ii), 2. (i), (ii)… Conclusion) – that would take too much time and effort for me. This linear way will be mixed with a system that works more like a collage of ideas that form a whole, kind of like the colors and forms that come to make a painting on a canvas. Here I go, with God and the Virgin (con Dios y la Virgin).

+++

Jesus never called Himself a priest. (This is like a stroke of blue on the sky of our canvas).

+++

Let’s put something else on the canvas before we put it aside. I will put a spiritual scenario on the bottom like this:

Imagine a great valley with millions of sheep who are in a journey. At the head of the group is the pope who is leading the sheep to a good pasture where they can live with Love. The pope has bishops in charge of different sections of the herd to make sure sheep are fed, the sick are taken care of, and they are guided in the right direction to the destination, the bishops in turn have priests so they can focus on smaller chunks of the big herd and care for them, feed them with the Eucharist and the Word, and guide/lead them properly to follow the right direction to the good pasture (Heaven).

The priests are overseers because they have been equipped/empowered to be so by the Good Shepherd(with less power than the bishop) who has gone ahead of them all to the pasture. This equipment allows the priests to be at a higher rank than the sheep so they can see dangers; ravines, gorges, etc… which may lead the sheep to death (hell) or cause them to get lost. So, the priests cannot be one of the sheep and walk “side by side” with them and march straight to hell with them. The priest must not only feed the sheep but he must also keep them clean so they will not get sick and guide them to eternal salvation. The fact that the priest is able to feed, clean and guide the sheep is proof that the Good Shepherd want the lower ranking shepherds at that level. Because it is the Good Shepherd that provides the food and the soap and water and with the Holy Spirit He continues His work of salvation through the ministerial priesthood (pope, bishops and priests) who work in persona Christi (in His person) He then, Himself serves as a witness that the hierarchy of the Church is His will (pope, bishops and priests).

It is out of His great love for each and every sheep that He calls and provides priest shepherds to take care of His sheep. He wants His sheep taken care of at that level that is how much He loves each and every sheep. The Good Shepherd loves each sheep so much that if all the sheep loved just one sheep, they would still not love that sheep more than the Good Shepherd. He wants all the sheep saved. Now, one may ask, why not just make a lot of bishops and put them at that level? Well, because the bishops are governors and they oversee how many groups of herds are progressing in the journey and are able to direct and guide from a higher view. It all works out. It is the way the Good Shepherd set it up and He Himself serves as a witness. So, we need to let the priest be the leader and guide us.

John 21:
15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”

“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”

16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”

17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. 18 Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”

The second part will be analytical and filled with quotes from Church documents, Sacred Scripture, etc… and the claims argued will be clearly stated.

May God help me. Please pray.

Peace

 

[Abba]

A Defense of the Catholic Priesthood: Empowered Shepherds

As already noted I am neither a theologian nor a professional Catholic. I am actually very ignorant about many things and am not well read with regards to documents of the Church. I am making a continuous effort to learn. What I am writing is a defense for my faith which I have lived and witnessed and as a faithful. I have witnessed the good a pastor can do for his community from the mountains of Chartreuse, in some parishes in the United States to the little unknown town of Moca when they are permitted to guide, feed and care for the community their bishop has sent them to minister. In preparation for my response, I quickly searched Church documents and tried to do some quick reading and scholars may find my presentation very lacking. I at least want to make the effort to post a response with my limited capacity (and recognizing this is way above my pay grade) before I get back to my obligations and duties which I have been neglecting on account of this thread – exactly because I just cannot let it go without a response.

My objective here is not to attack anyone in particular as it is evident that these positions are held by many, but instead I want to present a defense for some of the general claims made which are contrary to my understanding of the faith. Plainly speaking, I believe that it is good for the laity to recognize that pastors are the spiritual leaders of their communities, not because they want to govern and tell people what to do, but because in doing so they are serving the community by guiding the community and individuals in the right Christian path. They do this in service to their Bishops and at their level. I believe that the nature of shepherd is inherent in the ministerial priesthood and as such they are leaders and guides of not only the individuals but also of the community they are given charge of by their bishops. A parish priest is not given a certain amount of laity to take care, but instead the demarcation is geographical. A priest is not given 7,000 to 100,000 individual laity to care for but a section of the diocese – a community. I believe that the nature of shepherd is inherent in the ministerial priesthood even though often times a priest may not be serving in this capacity as he may be serving, for instance, exclusively as an exorcist.

In our time, priests are the ones to officially perform exorcisms, but just because a priest is an exorcist this does not deny other aspects that make him a priest. He does not lose his priest nature when he is an exorcist it is as a priest that he is an exorcist. Given that the nature of a priest is shepherd and they work in the person of Christ than it would follow that it is good for a community to have a priest as their parish administrator by which I mean specifically leader in addition to administering the sacraments, notwithstanding that fact that, religious have been given charge of communities. It is good to let second rank shepherds/priests lead the flock not because of worldly considerations but spiritual ones.

It is one thing to have a shortage of priests and another to say that we do not need them and their role can be replaced and easily fulfilled by the laity and/or religious. There are priest who serve even under the pastor of a parish but they serve with their priestly nature to be shepherds. I recently wrote about a priest I knew for whom a process of canonization has started, that priest was not even the pastor of the parish, and he was an assistant to the pastor, but what a backup, eh? (eh? Like Pope Francis would say. I have noticed his ‘eh?” and I like it. ). He can be such a backup because of his priestly nature which is at least to me undeniable as it consist of having the capacity to guide in the right path not only the individuals but the community. Even as priests are guiding the individuals they are indirectly also guiding the community of believers.

Another matter that hit me deeply is the proposition that priests can go back to the rank and file of the laity once they are done administering the sacraments. According to the claim, the administration of the sacraments is really what they are needed for as other aspects of priestly functions are denied (their value as shepherds/leaders/guides not only to the individuals but also to a community of faithful). It is wrong to propose priests can go back to the rank and file with the laity that is to attempt to secularize the priesthood, and as proof note that priests are permitted to serve in the capacity of brothers in a religious community. The fact that religious are ordained should not be taken to deny nor diminish the value of ordination and that at ordination an ontological change occurs which empowers priests to lead and guide the laity.

The ontological change occurs because Jesus wills it. Jesus empowered the apostles who He called and sent out on a pastoral mission and this empowerment has been passed on ever since with diligent precaution. To say, these men were called by Jesus Himself to serve in the ministerial priesthood and tend His flock, they have been put aside by Jesus Himself, and have experienced an ontological change. How can we disregard all this and claim that they are no better and can and should go back to the rank and file of the laity and neither be treated nor recognized as different? Jesus Himself made them different with the power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Himself set them aside from the laity, and Jesus Himself calls them and provides them for us, to tend to His flock. How can we say that they are not different from us when Jesus and the Holy Spirit makes them different and wants them to guide and feed us?

 

[Abba]

Jesus did not leave us on our own, He left us the Church and He left us the ministerial priesthood and the Magisterium of the Church which is guided by the Holy Spirit. He obvious considered that we need guidance in this journey and that we can be led astray. We need to recognize that we can be led astray and need to be guided to stay in the right path and not be misguided/blinded by heretical ideas, rationalizations, and mainstream cool stuff and so on. The Good Shepherd wants His sheep guided in the right path. None of these points deny that the bishops have the fullness of the priesthood and the jurisdiction.

It is true that Pope Francis want to eliminate narcissism and is blowing the smoke out from the Vatican. He understands the Church needs to be less Vatican-centric and for there to be more outreach to the people. He himself is practicing what he is preaching when he sends a check to a poor old woman. That’s living the faith and nothing else. This should not be taken to construe that the Pope is justifying any devaluation of the priesthood to the contrary he is promoting that they be more true to their nature. When Pope Francis met with the priests of Rome and made reference to their shepherd nature he did not err. news.va/en/news/pope-francis-to-rome-priests-never-settle-for-simp

Continues….

Peace

 

[Abba]

Hello everyone,

Well, here I was catching up on my work and taking care some duties so that I can write up a nice defense, to which end I have been doing research and then - voila! The Church has already written everything I wanted to establish and I must say with distinguished eloquence. It is all in:
PRESBYTERORUM ORDINIS
PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS,
POPE PAUL VI
ON DECEMBER 7, 1965

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651207_presbyterorum-ordinis_en.html

The Church establishes in this document that the priesthood is sacred and that the priests are shepherds and are empowered. There is no need to complicate the matter by presenting an abstract analysis. And, as this document notes when speaking of the things of God it is good to stick with Sacred Scripture and note it’s truth in every day life, instead of speaking abstractly. The only thing that I would have added to the points established in this document was how in the Council of Trent the ideology presented in this thread was addressed and that men are to be ordained as needed and that priests are to be pretty much assigned to one parish. I was also going to note how we can see the existence of communities in the NT who were assigned leaders to feed them.

The principal point I wanted to make are established in PRESBYTERORUM ORDINIS which are that priests are empowered spiritual leaders of the communities they have been entrusted. It is a good thing to be docile as we learn from Mary. It is good to acknowledge and recognize our priests as our spiritual leaders and reverance them.

"They are united by a special solicitude with those who have fallen away from the use of the sacraments, or perhaps even from the faith. Indeed, as good shepherds, they should not cease from going out to them.

Mindful of the prescripts on ecumenism,(57) let them not forget their brothers who do not enjoy full ecclesiastical communion with us.

Finally, they have entrusted to them all those who do not recognize Christ as their Savior.

The Christian faithful, for their part, should realize their obligations to their priests, and with filial love they should follow them as their pastors and fathers. In like manner, sharing their cares, they should help their priests by prayer and work insofar as possible so that their priests might more readily overcome difficulties and be able to fulfill their duties more fruitfully.(58)"

“Their ministry itself, by a special title, forbids that they be conformed to this world;(20) yet at the same time it requires that they live in this world among men. They are to live as good shepherds that know their sheep, and they are to seek to lead those who are not of this sheepfold that they, too, may hear the voice of Christ, so that there might be one fold and one shepherd.”

"The office of pastor is not confined to the care of the faithful as individuals, but also in a true sense is extended to the formation of a genuine Christian community. Yet the spirit of the community should be so fostered as to embrace not only the local church, but also the universal Church. The local community should promote not only the care of its own faithful, but, filled with a missionary zeal, it should prepare also the way to Christ for all men. In a special way, catechumens and the newly-baptized who must be educated gradually to know and to live the Christian life are entrusted to his care.

No Christian community, however, is built up unless it has its basis and center in the celebration of the most Holy Eucharist; from this, therefore, all education to the spirit of community must take its origin.(31) This celebration, if it is to be genuine and complete, should lead to various works of charity and mutual help, as well as to missionary activity and to different forms of Christian witness.

The ecclesial community by prayer, example, and works of penance, exercise a true motherhood toward souls who are to be led to Christ. The Christian community forms an effective instrument by which the path to Christ and his Church is pointed out and made smooth for non-believers. It is an effective instrument also for arousing, nourishing and strengthening the faithful for their spiritual combat.

In building the Christian community, priests are never to put themselves at the service of some human faction of ideology, but, as heralds of the Gospel and shepherds of the Church, they are to spend themselves for the spiritual growth of the Body of Christ."

Thank you all for your patience with me. Happy Thanksgiving.

Blessing,

Abba

 

[Abba]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus,

Ever since the post before this last one, this thread has been viewed more than 3,000 times. And, since I posted the last post it is quickly reaching over 100 views. I have noticed that many of the people reading this thread are Protestants who are on the road to converting to Catholicism. I just want to address a word to you directly and say that if you have any questions, please feel free to ask and I or others more eloquent than myself will be more than happy to answer your questions. There may be points that can be addressed with more details and directly. You can also ask your question to an apologist or in one of the sub-forums.

 

[Strevel]

I enjoy your post, and its correct perception of people on the way to their own personal conversion. However, it is not just our Protestant brothers. It is also people such as myself that came back from Mormonism. My life has never been happier, I have never understood more about Christ, his Gospel, or who is actually is! The Mormon belief really screwed me up for a long time. Finally, with the teachings of my Catholic faith, I was able to regain equalilibrum.
Mormons convert to the catholoic faith as well. And in vast and increasing numbers.

Don

 

[josie_L]

It’s a sad day where vocal dissenters are in love with the Pope. It’s a sad day when the secular world is in love with the Pope. Stop blaming mistranslations, folks. It is possible that the Holy Father is giving just straight up off the cuff interviews, riddled with concepts that your average Catholic isn’t going to understand, and that border on dangerous theological grounds. Since Francis has become Pope, I see more and more dissenters saying they’re coming back to the Church, well if they had been moved by Catholic teaching they never would have dissented and wouldn’t have needed apparent Papal license to return. Giving the Holy Father all the respect he is due as Pope, some of you must understand that some of us do not like Francis at all.

People really need to trust Christ when he prayed that Peter’s faith (including his successors) would not fail, or that the gates of hell shall not prevail.

 

[Strevel]

I, for one, respect your right to feel as you wish. We are followers of Christ, and not paparazzi for a Pope tho. If you can love the message but dislike the messenger as you aprticipate I think that is very good. Just be loyal to your heart.

The Holy Father is AOK in my individual book. He is frankly open and shares what we all know. An interview is just that, an interview and not a Papal Bull. I enjoy his humaness, his openess and his lack of fife and drums. He walks up to others and shakes their hands. The Papal Throne which he has every right to use, is replaced by a white chair. He was known for taking mass (funny transit to work and cook his own food. I admire that he is not so “formal and magestic” but down to earth. Equally, I love going to mass with the idea that someone may be there that has not attended in a long time. ~~~ we are a hospital for sinners (me) and never a museum for saints and statues.~~~ Our brothers and sisters need our love, appreciation and acceptance into our warm and loving Catholic family. To exclude them in any way is an indicator of OUR problems, not theirs. Perhaps it is US that needs confession and humility. Our brothersand sisters need our love, our hand shakes and smiles, our friendship. We are there as the tool, the hand, the action agent for God / Jesus / +VM and the Saints. Let’s not exclude anyone that we can grow through loving them.

Don, Las Vegas~~~

 

[Abba]

I enjoy your post, and its correct perception of people on the way to their own personal conversion. However, it is not just our Protestant brothers. It is also people such as myself that came back from Mormonism. My life has never been happier, I have never understood more about Christ, his Gospel, or who is actually is! The Mormon belief really screwed me up for a long time. Finally, with the teachings of my Catholic faith, I was able to regain equalilibrum.
Mormons convert to the catholoic faith as well. And in vast and increasing numbers.

Don

That’s wonderful to know, Don. Welcome home.

Really, many Mormons are converting? That’s wonderful news. Perhaps, given your experience you can guide others to a true understanding of who Jesus really is and what He really taught.

Blessing.