Pope Francis: Divorced Catholics who remarry are not 'excommunicated.'

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JerryZ said:
As you can see the Catholic Church does not make up rules as you asserted, instead she follows what Jesus and his Apostles teach. There is no divorce allowed, period.
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Although divorce is a serious sin, nevertheless, after a period of penance, a divorced Eastern Orthodox may be allowed to return to church and the sacraments. Further members of the EO Church are permitted, under Catholic rules, to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church. And I don;t see where Rome objected to the practice of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Actually, I find that Pope Sergius III sent papal legates to Constantinople supporting the fourth marriage of Emperor Leo VI.
 
Tomdstone said:
What is the difference between excommunication and being barred from Holy Communion?
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Good question, though it seems irrelevant at this point. There are many things which bar you from Holy Communion; sometimes they are known only to you. There are others such as irregular marriages or cohabitation which are more apparent and thus would set bad examples if communion is approached, at least under current rules.
 
Tomdstone said:
I think it is a huge change in Catholic teaching. For example, when Jackie Kennedy married Aristotle Onassis, there were officials in the Vatican who said that she was a public sinner. That was when Cardinal Cushing of Boston came to her defense and said that no one has the right to judge her.
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By Catholic teaching are you talking about Dogma or approach?
 
Louie1983 said:
By Catholic teaching are you talking about Dogma or approach?
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To see the difference between what the current Pope is saying and what was said in the past, lookup the reports on the marriage of Jackie Kennedy to Aristotle Onassis.
 
Tomdstone said:
To see the difference between what the current Pope is saying and what was said in the past, lookup the reports on the marriage of Jackie Kennedy to Aristotle Onassis.
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But did Jackie Kennedy get divorced or was her husband killed? How is this the same?

Also…to see the similarities with what this Pope and what was said in the past, see:

"In stressing the complexity of the pastoral care of those who have entered unions without having received an annulment of their marriage, Pope Francis turned to his immediate predecessors, St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI, both of whom had addressed this problem.

Pope Francis went on to stress how in recent decades, under the guidance of his predecessors, the Church has come to an increased awareness of the need for “fraternal and attentive welcome, in love and in truth” of those who have entered a new union following the failure of their marriage.

For instance, the Pope cited Benedict XVI who, in a question and answer period during the 2012 World Meeting of Families, acknowledged there were no “simple solutions.”

He also cited St. John Paul II’s 1981 apostolic exhortation on the family, Familiaris consortio, calling on pastors to “exercise careful discernment of situations” (84) in caring for couples who have attempted to remarry without having obtained an annulment – giving the example of the difference between someone who caused the separation, and who suffered it."

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/it/audiences/2015/documents/papa-francesco_20150805_udienza-generale.html
 
Tomdstone said:
What is the difference between excommunication and being barred from Holy Communion?
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I actually once read a very good response to this…

I’ll see if I can find it and post it here…

But it was sometime ago…
 
Louie1983 said:
Right, Thanks for that.

But for me it really doesn;t change anything when it comes to change or percieved change in church teaching.
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At that time, when she married a divorced man, a Vatican spokesman said she was a public sinner. Today, according to what Pope Francis has said, we would not be hearing that.
 
Tomdstone said:
At that time, when she married a divorced man, a Vatican spokesman said she was a public sinner. Today, according to what Pope Francis has said, we would not be hearing that.
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True, we don’t hear much about sin anymore but that doesn’t mean the Church did away with it. If there is no more sin, then there is nothing to forgive and Christianity loses its value to us.
 
Louie1983 said:
But did Jackie Kennedy get divorced or was her husband killed? How is this the same?
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Both parties must be free to marry; if one isn’t, it’s considered an irregular marriage as far as the Church is concerned.

I think what the Pope is now saying in those ten points is that based on the circumstances and marital sex intentions, this irregularity can now be fixed without an annulment of either former marriages. But maybe I’m reading it wrong. Wish it were in Latin where we can compare to previous statements on the same matter.
 
Louie1983 said:
No He’s not. He’s encouraging discussion on this because he’s trying to find a way to help them feel more inclusive but without compromising the dogma/sacraments.

From the Article:

" Citing statements on the same topic by his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, the Holy Father said that the Church should reach out to help those who are in irregular marital situations, aware that there are no “simple solutions” to their problems. Although the Church cannot approve of their marriages, they are “not excommunicated, by any means,” he said, and the Church must help them.

“The Church knows well that such a situation contradicts the Christian sacrament,” Pope Francis told those assembled in Paul VI Audience Hall. The Church, he said, looks upon those in such situations with a maternal heart and “always looks for the good and the salvation of persons.”
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I saw that story covered on a liberal news station and even they said the Pope was making a “disturbing” remark on making changes for divorced and remarrieds. Weird.
 
Tomdstone said:
Although divorce is a serious sin, nevertheless, after a period of penance, a divorced Eastern Orthodox may be allowed to return to church and the sacraments.
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The Roman Catholic church does not allow this for the simple reason that the sin involved (adultery, not divorce) is not a one time event that can be forgiven, but an ongoing sin that cannot. Absolution requires that the supplicant have the intention of not committing the sin again; without that there can be no forgiveness. Nor is this something the church has the authority to change.

Ender
 
Ender said:
The Roman Catholic church does not allow this for the simple reason that the sin involved (adultery, not divorce) is not a one time event that can be forgiven, but an ongoing sin that cannot. Absolution requires that the supplicant have the intention of not committing the sin again; without that there can be no forgiveness. Nor is this something the church has the authority to change.

Ender
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Then why did Pope Sergius III send papal legates to Constantinople supporting the fourth marriage of Emperor Leo VI ?
<<<Leo VI caused a major scandal with his numerous marriages which failed to produce a legitimate heir to the throne. His first wife Theophano, whom Basil had forced him to marry on account of her family connections to the Martinakioi, and whom Leo hated, died in 897, and Leo married Zoe Zaoutzaina, the daughter of his adviser Stylianos Zaoutzes, though she died as well in 899. Upon this marriage Leo created the title of basileopatōr (“father of the emperor”) for his father-in-law.

After Zoe’s death a third marriage was technically illegal, but he married again, only to have his third wife Eudokia Baïana die in 901, Instead of marrying a fourth time, which would have been an even greater sin than a third marriage (according to the Patriarch Nicholas Mystikos) Leo took as mistress Zoe Karbonopsina. He married her only after she had given birth to a son in 905,[36] but incurred the opposition of the patriarch. Replacing Nicholas Mystikos with Euthymios, Leo got his marriage recognized by the church (albeit with a long penance attached, and with an assurance that Leo would outlaw all future fourth marriages)…On March 1, 901, Nicholas was appointed patriarch. However, he fell out with Leo VI over the latter’s fourth marriage to his mistress Zoe Karbonopsina. Although he reluctantly baptized the fruit of this relationship, the future Constantine VII, Nicholas forbade the emperor from entering the church and may have become involved in the revolt of Andronikos Doukas. He was deposed as patriarch on February 1, 907 and replaced by Euthymios…Sergius; the pope sent papal legates to Constantinople, who confirmed the pope’s ruling in favour of the emperor, on the grounds that fourth marriages had not been condemned by the Church as a whole.>>>
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_VI_the_Wise#Leo.27s_marriages
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Mystikos
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sergius_III
 
Papa Francis, as a pastor, wants all of his flock to be safe and welcomed instead of being ostracized and shunned because of a major mistake they made when young. The Synod on the Family is supposed to be a real dialogue about how the Church can be welcoming to all, and those trying to derail real progress are deluded if they think that The Holy Father, a Jesuit, is holding this meeting just for show. Do I think that annulments will be thrown out altogether - of course not, but maybe, just maybe the entire process will be streamlined and cost nothing to the petitioner. Those who suffer physical and mental abuse at the hands of a spouse should not have to suffer again by the hands of the Church that they love. I pray that Pope Francis is strong enough to not let a small group of uber autocrats undermine his plans for helping those who are struggling. God Bless you, Papa Francis.👍
 
Tomdstone said:
At that time, when she married a divorced man, a Vatican spokesman said she was a public sinner. Today, according to what Pope Francis has said, we would not be hearing that.
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Thank goodness that we have moved on, at least a little bit, from that form of thought.👍👍
 
kozlosap said:
Thank goodness that we have moved on, at least a little bit, from that form of thought.👍👍
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Only because we understand more of the psychology behind failed marriages and so forth. But we have to be careful that this doesn’t lead to more of the unwanted behavior. There was an avalanche of divorces amongst Catholics after the penalties of excommunication were lifted.
 
Tomdstone said:
Then why did Pope Sergius III send papal legates to Constantinople supporting the fourth marriage of Emperor Leo VI ?
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I am not familiar with that situation and have no idea what was done, let alone why, but frankly Scarlet, it doesn’t matter. There have been married popes, and popes who have kept mistresses, the point being the church has never claimed that every action by a pope is valid, and citing something done by Pope Sergius III really doesn’t change what the church has always taught.

Church doctrine in this matter is pretty inflexible given that it has been passed down unchanged from her earliest existence.
  • Sexual relations between a couple involved in a remarriage after divorce constitutes adultery.
  • Adultery is a grave sin.
  • No one who has committed a grave sin may receive communion before that sin is absolved.
  • Sins cannot be absolved without contrition, and contrition includes the intent not to repeat the sin.
Unless one of these doctrines is reversed I don’t see any way the divorced and remarried can be readmitted to communion. Do you?

Ender
 
Ender said:
I am not familiar with that situation and have no idea what was done, let alone why, but frankly Scarlet, it doesn’t matter. …

Ender
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I disagree that it does not matter. I think it does matter because the Orthodox claim that Rome never objected to their practice of granting a divorce under certain restricted conditions and after a period of penance to readmit the person to the church. This is one historical fact which tends to support their POV. Further, at the Council of Florence, was there any objection raised to the Orthodox practice?
 
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