Pope Francis draws criticism from some conservative Catholics over stances on economy, environment, social issues

[Bubba_Switzler]

Prudence is understanding why some go hungry while others eat too much and waste food in the real world? I guess I understand it is the reality and perhaps could be said to be the prudence of those not going hungry, but I don’t believe it is right.

Some will always have more than others, that’s the nature of the world that God created.

But, no, the prudence to which I was referring was the wisdom to know what is most effective for improving the lives of the poor.

At one time prudence was regarded as the charioteer of the virtues but increasinlgy it is considered, instead, a vice.

I agree. Modernity is rejected by Laudato Si. And so is secularism. I think this is clear in the description and explanation of the difficulties of the existing epistomological paradigm and what ought to be done about it.

Throwing out the baby with the bath water.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The same difference that exists between being anti-Catholic and not being Catholic. Or between being anti-Jewish and not being Jewish. Or between you and me: I do not share some of your views, but I am not against you.

Sorry, no, that analogy will simply not do.

We are not talking here about individual choices. We are talking about the ideologies and policies of the state. It is one thing for an individual to say that he is not a capitalist. It is anotherthing entirely for a political party to pursue “not capitalist” policies.

When Juan Peron said that Peronism is not capitalist what he means by that is that capitalist policies will be rejected by the nation of Argentina. He is not simply stating his personal preference and allowing others to go about their own lives as they choose.

Suggesting that not being capitalist is the same as being against capitalism is a textbook example of the fallacy of the false dilemma.

Peronism is yet another “Third Way” movement and, yes, that means that it is anti-capitalist.

 

[pnewton]

Labels like “Catholic”? What about “Christian”?

Anyone who claims to oppose labels is deluding themselves.

Do you always say people who do not think like you are delusional? Yes, labels can be useful. They can also be propaganda, rhetoric, or insults. Instead of using a more neutral label like “Christian”, do you not see where labels like the one used are not neutral? What about when the media use labels like racist or homophobe to describe conservatives for expressing their beliefs? It is not that labels in and of themselves are bad, but this “Hitler’s Malthusianism” garbage, can you not see where that has some negative connotation?

If not, I and you stick to what you said, I will just leave it to other readers to decide who they think is deluded.

 

[Thomas_White]

Some will always have more than others, that’s the nature of the world that God created.

But, no, the prudence to which I was referring was the wisdom to know what is most effective for improving the lives of the poor.

At one time prudence was regarded as the charioteer of the virtues but increasinlgy it is considered, instead, a vice.

Yes, prudence is a cardinal virtue, and I agree so would having the wisdom to know the most effective way to improve the lives of the poor. But I don’t see how this would be accomplished by an economic system that is resulting in an increasing gap between a tiny elite of the very wealthy and everyone else.

Throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Maybe throwing out something not clearly articulated. Most notably here, this would concern Gaudium et Spes and the understanding of the culture of modernity. Reconsideration and reinterpretation of Gaudium et Spes has been described as a dominant theme in the theological work of Joseph Ratzinger. Some believe its interpretation was part of what went wrong during the implementation of Vatican II.

Anyway, I see Laudato Si as a clear rejection of modernity. There is the strong influence of the Catholic theologian Romano Guardini–that is, the Guardini who wrote “Letters from Lake Como”. This concerns the cultural paradigm described in Laudato Si.

Guardini was the subject of Jorge Bergoglio’s doctoral studies, and many have noted his influence on Laudato Si. Also interesting is that it is said Guardini was also a key influence on Joseph Ratzinger and was also favored by John Paul II.

However, the idea of both the temporal world and the Church as constantly in process, also a modernist concept, was for some controversial, though not for these three successive popes. It is also Catholic dogma (Dei Verbum). Perhaps this is what is confusing.

It would seem these theological concepts and their importance to the last three popes make a lot more sense in understanding Pope Francis that some notion about Peronism.

 

[pnewton]

I think he was denounced as being too “liberal” in his own era, was he not?

Today, surely some would categorize him as just one of many standing on a box in Times Square, predicting the imminent end of the world to come in a few years (as he did 2000 years ago)

I do feel that many conservative Catholics might say he’s too “left”…in the same way they say this about the pope, when he speaks about humanitarian issues.

.

Did I really say, “if Jesus was alive?” That was rather dumb of me. I meant if he was alive and walking the Earth today as he did 2000 years ago.

Yet still, I think he would have been painted as a socialist liberal, communist or Marxist by the mainstream conservative media. Likewise the left would have castigated him for his lack of tolerance and love, picking only men, criticizing the poor woman at the well for her sexual choices, talking about people going to Hell.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Yes, prudence is a cardinal virtue, and I agree so would having the wisdom to know the most effective way to improve the lives of the poor. But I don’t see how this would be accomplished by an economic system that is resulting in an increasing gap between a tiny elite of the very wealthy and everyone else.

And you won’t ever see how that can be accomplished so long as you hold to the Malthusian idea that resources are limited. Of course, if you take that view, you will see the improvement of the “tiny elite” as coming at the expense everyone else, as with the dinner table analogy I offered previously.

Sadly, it seems that we have a pope that shares that view. Pope Francis confessed that he didn’t understand capitalism (which he conflated with accounting, just to show how confused he is on the subject). I believe that Pope John Paul II understood capitalism at least at a conceptual level. I strongly suspect that Pope Benedict had at least a working understanding of it. But Pope Francis? He seems to take pride in the fact that he doesn’t understand how it works.

Maybe throwing out something not clearly articulated. Most notably here, this would concern Gaudium et Spes and the understanding of the culture of modernity. Reconsideration and reinterpretation of Gaudium et Spes has been described as a dominant theme in the theological work of Joseph Ratzinger. Some believe its interpretation was part of what went wrong during the implementation of Vatican II.

Anyway, I see Laudato Si as a clear rejection of modernity. There is the strong influence of the Catholic theologian Romano Guardini–that is, the Guardini who wrote “Letters from Lake Como”. This concerns the cultural paradigm described in Laudato Si.

Guardini was the subject of Jorge Bergoglio’s doctoral studies, and many have noted his influence on Laudato Si. Also interesting is that it is said Guardini was also a key influence on Joseph Ratzinger and was also favored by John Paul II.

However, the idea of both the temporal world and the Church as constantly in process, also a modernist concept, was for some controversial, though not for these three successive popes. It is also Catholic dogma (Dei Verbum). Perhaps this is what is confusing.

It would seem these theological concepts and their importance to the last three popes make a lot more sense in understanding Pope Francis that some notion about Peronism.

At this point I think we are splitting hairs. If Pope Francis is rejecting modernity in toto as you suggest that would be most sad. I suspect otherwise. He seems more than enamored of some post-Scholastic innovations such as Liberation Theology.

There is much to criticize in the modern world but much also to cherish and preserve. We await a pope with the intellectual and moral courage to resume the very difficult task of sorting out the wheat from the chaff.

 

[pnewton]

LOL.
I think if he was alive “and walking the Earth” today…he would definitely choose some female apostles!!! Knowing that society was ready for such a thing.

.

I do not doubt many feel that way. I think we would have seen more women in ministry. Of course, this is a Catholic forum and most of us know that a female apostle is theologically problematic, though in a parallel sci-fi world, where maybe animals were also people, maybe.

 

[estesbob]

LOL.
I think if he was alive “and walking the Earth” today…he would definitely choose some female apostles!!! Knowing that society was ready for such a thing.

.

So he had no choice in what society he came in? His Curch is exactly the way he wants it. He is alive and walking today . You cannot separate Jesus from his church. They are one in the same

 

[Inquiringperson]

LOL.
I think if he was alive “and walking the Earth” today…he would definitely choose some female apostles!!! Knowing that society was ready for such a thing.

.

I think if Jesus wanted female apostles, he would have had it. Remember, he was already scandalizing people by his hanging out with sinners and tax collectors, and he was already scandalizing people by saying his flesh must be eaten. Scandalizing people wasn’t a foreign concept to Jesus, whose message will at times make us uncomfortable. So I don’t see how societal bounds discouraged Jesus from having female apostles.

 

[Tampa_Dave]

Some Conservatives do seem a bit “squirmy”. I definitely see it around here.

Personally, I have loved all the Popes of my 39 years. Every Pope has something to teach us.

Hey ringil! It has been a while since I’ve been here. You were always a very thoughtful poster.

As a Latin Mass kind of guy who spent quite a bit of time with Opus Dei, I might very well fit your definition of one who is “squirmy” with Pope Francis.

I am currently in the St. Petersburg Diocese in Florida; I previously belonged to the very conservative Arlington Diocese in Virginia. There is nothing for the Traditionalsit Catholic here. In fact, I’m finding very little of anything here outside of Sunday Mass. I feel like I’m in a spiritual desert in the St. Petersburg Diocese.

With John Paul II and Benedict XVI, at least I felt a kindred spirit. With Pope Francis, I constantly find myself checking the news media for updates on his latest commentary. Given my spiritual vacuum in this Diocese, I find my concerns with the Pope add to my doom and gloom scenario here.

 

[zz912]

Hey ringil! It has been a while since I’ve been here. You were always a very thoughtful poster.

As a Latin Mass kind of guy who spent quite a bit of time with Opus Dei, I might very well fit your definition of one who is “squirmy” with Pope Francis.

I am currently in the St. Petersburg Diocese in Florida; I previously belonged to the very conservative Arlington Diocese in Virginia. There is nothing for the Traditionalsit Catholic here. In fact, I’m finding very little of anything here outside of Sunday Mass. I feel like I’m in a spiritual desert in the St. Petersburg Diocese.

With John Paul II and Benedict XVI, at least I felt a kindred spirit. With Pope Francis, I constantly find myself checking the news media for updates on his latest commentary. Given my spiritual vacuum in this Diocese, I find my concerns with the Pope add to my doom and gloom scenario here.

Hang in there!

In May of next year, the bishop will be turning 75 and giving his retirement notice. Hopefully we can get a bishop that will turn the desert into a garden!

FYI, there is a TLM at Incarnation in Tampa and one at the Cathedral in St Pete.

 

[zz912]

LOL.
I think if he was alive “and walking the Earth” today…he would definitely choose some female apostles!!! Knowing that society was ready for such a thing.

Are you suggesting Jesus was too scared or timid to shake up the cultural norms and expectations?

This is silliness to suggest that Jesus was a victim of society, instead of God Incarnate.

 

[rmartensjr]

Are you suggesting Jesus was too scared or timid to shake up the cultural norms and expectations?

This is silliness to suggest that Jesus was a victim of society, instead of God Incarnate.

_ _

 

[Inquiringperson]

Are you suggesting Jesus was too scared or timid to shake up the cultural norms and expectations?

This is silliness to suggest that Jesus was a victim of society, instead of God Incarnate.

Exactly! And as I said earlier, he already was shaking things up (I am the bread of life).

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Now, some will say Pope Francis is not against capitalism itself, only “unfettered” or “unbridled” capitalism, as in the “unfettered pursuit of money” he assailed during his July visit to Bolivia. It’s also true that Christian warnings about the love of money go back to the Apostle Paul.

But this pope’s assault on the global economy suggests he believes the whole idea fundamentally disordered, leading to a world where competition is exalted over cooperation and people grow rich by exploiting the poor.

Only one problem. Even the most cursory look at the world confirms the opposite: The more fetters imposed on competitive markets, the harder life gets for those stuck at the bottom.

wsj.com/articles/pope-francis-unfettered-1442875692

 

[pnewton]

wsj.com/articles/pope-francis-unfettered-1442875692

The article takes as an unproven axiom something I do not believe. While it is true that the opposite of competition is collusion (or cooperation depending on one’s personal spin), this has zero to do with regulation, fetters, or whatever you call it. Historically, the more unregulated capitalism, the less competitive was capitalism.

The two issues in the title are related, but have no correlation. No regulation can result in zero competition. Excessive regulation can result in zero competition. Yet the Catholic Church’s stance has always been consistent that government can regulate commerce to the common good of all, though we may disagree with how much is good and when too much starts to hurt people. This is not something new with Pope Francis.

 

[zz912]

The article takes as an unproven axiom something I do not believe. While it is true that the opposite of competition is collusion (or cooperation depending on one’s personal spin), this has zero to do with regulation, fetters, or whatever you call it. **Historically, the more unregulated capitalism, the less competitive was capitalism. **
The two issues in the title are related, but have no correlation. No regulation can result in zero competition. Excessive regulation can result in zero competition. Yet the Catholic Church’s stance has always been consistent that government can regulate commerce to the common good of all, though we may disagree with how much is good and when too much starts to hurt people. This is not something new with Pope Francis.

The bolded statement is simply false.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Some high-profile commentators think they smell a Marxist clothed in white papal robes, who dreams of redistributing the world’s wealth. Pope Francis insists that he has little interest in Marxism and that his political advocacy against materialism, capitalism, greed and idolatry are largely religious in nature. However, the flavor of some of his statements might suggest otherwise.

gatestoneinstitute.org/6549/pope-dream-totalitarian

 

[stinkcat_14]

The bolded statement is simply false.

Can you provide some data backing up your claim?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Can you provide some data backing up your claim?

Why don’t you first provide some data backing the origial claim.