Pope Francis draws criticism from some conservative Catholics over stances on economy, environment, social issues

[stinkcat_14]

Why don’t you first provide some data backing the origial claim.

I made no claims. If you aren’t prepared to back up what you say, then the prudent thing is to not say anything.

 

[zz912]

I made no claims. If you aren’t prepared to back up what you say, then the prudent thing is to not say anything.

pnewton did, and I reject the unsubstantiated claim he made. So it is incumbent upon him to support his claim. You are free to do so if you wish. And once his support has been given, then I will address his claim.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I made no claims. If you aren’t prepared to back up what you say, then the prudent thing is to not say anything.

It doesn’t matter that you made no claims. You inserted yourself into a discussion in which claims had been made and challenged the challenger to provide proof of his skepticism. If you aren’t prepared to demand everyone back up what they say then the prudent thing is not to demand anyone to back up what they say.

 

[stinkcat_14]

pnewton did, and I reject the unsubstantiated claim he made. So it is incumbent upon him to support his claim. You are free to do so if you wish. And once his support has been given, then I will address his claim.

Actually, you said his claim is false. Do you take that back? You didn’t ask him to support his claim, you actively made the counterclaim. As we see now, you made such a claim with no evidence to back it up. Personally, I don’t know whether there is any evidence to back pnewton’s claim, but the one thing we know is you have no evidence to back your claim.

 

[stinkcat_14]

It doesn’t matter that you made no claims. You inserted yourself into a discussion in which claims had been made and challenged the challenger to provide proof of his skepticism. If you aren’t prepared to demand everyone back up what they say then the prudent thing is not to demand anyone to back up what they say.

I think everyone should back up their claims, but I was not responding to pnewton at the time.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I think everyone should back up their claims, but I was not responding to pnewton at the time.

I think people should ask for evidence when they genuinely seek to better understand, not merely as a logical positivism bludgeon against their political enemies.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I think people should ask for evidence when they genuinely seek to better understand, not merely as a logical positivism bludgeon against their political enemies.

I am not sure what your point is. Somebody made a claim, I asked for evidence. Nobody should just accept people’s word that something is or is not true. Now if the poster in question does not want to back up the claim, then we can dismiss that poster’s claim. I am not sure what you mean by political enemies. I ask for evidence from people of all political persuasions, from the extreme right to the extreme left.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I am not sure what your point is. Somebody made a claim, I asked for evidence. Nobody should just accept people’s word that something is or is not true. Now if the poster in question does not want to back up the claim, then we can dismiss that poster’s claim. I am not sure what you mean by political enemies. I ask for evidence from people of all political persuasions, from the extreme right to the extreme left.

My point is you did not simply ask for evidence from someone who made a claim, you made an argument against someone you disagreed with in the form of a demand for evidence. My point is that you are disengineuous in your demands for evidence and that this is not the first time you’ve been caught doing this.

 

[Melvin]

The Pope is not losing support from Catholics, he is losing support from CINOs (Catholics in Name Only), a small but vocal group who are unable, or unwilling to separate faith from politics.

Oh, I see…the Pope is losing support from those you deem to not be faithful Catholics…got it…

 

[stinkcat_14]

My point is you did not simply ask for evidence from someone who made a claim,

I asked for evidence. Somebody made a claim, I asked them to back it up. That is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in the course of a discussion.

you made an argument against someone you disagreed with in the form of a demand for evidence. My point is that you are disengineuous in your demands for evidence and that this is not the first time you’ve been caught doing this.

I didn’t get caught doing anything. This part of your statement is completely fabricated and intellectually dishonest.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I asked for evidence. Somebody made a claim, I asked them to back it up. That is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in the course of a discussion.

Prove it. What evidence do you have that this is “a perfectly reasonable thing to do in the course of a discussion”?

 

[Genesis315]

Unregulated capitalism is essentially Darwinistic vision where the strong survive and ultimately come to dominate the weak. It ultimately leads to the means of production being in the hands of the few, and they therefore can manipulate prices and wages to their ultimate benefit. It’s why we had to bust the monopolies in the US and continue to do so if they become to much.

From Pope Pius XI’s encyclical, Quadragesimo Anno (my emphasis):
Pius XI:

1. But, with the diffusion of modern industry throughout the whole world, the “capitalist” economic regime has spread everywhere to such a degree, particularly since the publication of Leo XIII’s Encyclical, that it has invaded and pervaded the economic and social life of even those outside its orbit and is unquestionably impressing on it its advantages, disadvantages and vices, and, in a sense, is giving it its own shape and form.
2. Accordingly, when directing Our special attention to the changes which the capitalist economic system has undergone since Leo’s time, We have in mind the good not only of those who dwell in regions given over to “capital” and industry, but of all mankind.
3. In the first place, it is obvious that not only is wealth concentrated in our times but an immense power and despotic economic dictatorship is consolidated in the hands of a few, who often are not owners but only the trustees and managing directors of invested funds which they administer according to their own arbitrary will and pleasure.
4. This dictatorship is being most forcibly exercised by those who, since they hold the money and completely control it, control credit also and rule the lending of money. Hence they regulate the flow, so to speak, of the life-blood whereby the entire economic system lives, and have so firmly in their grasp the soul, as it were, of economic life that no one can breathe against their will.

107. This concentration of power and might, the characteristic mark, as it were, of contemporary economic life, is the fruit that the unlimited freedom of struggle among competitors has of its own nature produced, and which lets only the strongest survive; and this is often the same as saying, those who fight the most violently, those who give least heed to their conscience.

w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19310515_quadragesimo-anno.html

There’s a famous Fulton Sheen quote often repeated on this site, but we often don’t see the whole thing. One of the misconceptions he notes about Catholicism is that the Church is the defender of capitalism–it’s not.
Archbishop Fulton Sheen:

There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church - which is, of course, quite a different thing. These millions can hardly be blamed for hating Catholics because Catholics “adore statues”; because they “put the Blessed Mother on the same level with God”; because they say “indulgence is a permission to commit sin”; because the Pope “is a Fascist”; because the “Church is the defender of Capitalism.” If the Church taught or believed any one of these things it should be hated, but the fact is that the Church does not believe nor teach any one of them. It follows then that the hatred of the millions is directed against error and not against truth. As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do.

radioreplies.info/vol-1-preface.php

 

[stinkcat_14]

Prove it. What evidence do you have that this is “a perfectly reasonable thing to do in the course of a discussion”?

The evidence is from the empirical evidence of discussions like these forums. People on these boards make claims. People respond by asking for evidence. This has happened thousands of times on this board. i.e. see the example below.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=13165372&highlight=tax+cuts+source#post13165372

If asking for evidence were unreasonable, the moderators would likely have banned it. Or at least other posters complained about it.

I will note that you do object to people asking you to back up your claims with evidence.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The evidence is from the empirical evidence of discussions like these forums. People on these boards make claims. People respond by asking for evidence. This has happened thousands of times on this board. i.e. see the example below.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. And sometimes people do stupid things; that doesn’t make them reasonable to do.

If asking for evidence were unreasonable, the moderators would likely have banned it. Or at least other posters complained about it…

No, it’s not the job of moderators to filter discussions for reasonableness. They have their hands full keeping things civil.

I will note that you do object to people asking you to back up your claims with evidence.

When the request is frivolous as yours typically are.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. And sometimes people do stupid things; that doesn’t make them reasonable to do.

You opinion only.

No, it’s not the job of moderators to filter discussions for reasonableness. They have their hands full keeping things civil.

If asking for evidence were a problem it would be pretty easy to regulate. You are the only person, in my thousands of posts, who has ever complained that it is unreasonable to ask for evidence. If you don’t want evidence, then don’t ask for it. I wasn’t responding to you in the first place, so if you don’t like that I ask for evidence, you are just going to have to deal with it.

When the request is frivolous as yours typically are.

Actually, to be fair, my request was far from frivolous. One poster made a claim regarding the competitiveness of capitalism and regulation. Another poster claimed that the particular claim was false. Both claims were made without evidence. I asked one poster to back up his claim with evidence. I can assure you, that in the field of economics, the relationship between regulation and competitiveness is not a settled science. To figure out which side is right, we need to look at the evidence. Otherwise, we are just speculating and our speculations are subject to our own biases. That is why empirical economics is very important.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Actually, to be fair, my request was far from frivolous.

Actually, to be fair, it was frivolous, as have been all the requests I’ve seen from you. They are a lazy form of argument as evidenced by your one-sided interest. I’ve encountered plenty of people in these thread genuinely seeking additional support for arguments and I know the difference.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Actually, to be fair, it was frivolous, as have been all the requests I’ve seen from you. They are a lazy form of argument as evidenced by your one-sided interest. I’ve encountered plenty of people in these thread genuinely seeking additional support for arguments and I know the difference.

Your uninformed opinion. Now, the question is, why should we care about your opinion? You have so special expertise in the subject at hand, so you have no subject matter background that would give you expertise. You have no empirical evidence. You are free to have your opinion, but it does not really add much to the discussion.

 

[Thomas_White]

The Pope is not losing support from Catholics, he is losing support from CINOs (Catholics in Name Only), a small but vocal group who are unable, or unwilling to separate faith from politics.

This…

They just don’t know it.

 

[anthrogirl]

I think if Jesus wanted female apostles, he would have had it. Remember, he was already scandalizing people by his hanging out with sinners and tax collectors, and he was already scandalizing people by saying his flesh must be eaten. Scandalizing people wasn’t a foreign concept to Jesus, whose message will at times make us uncomfortable. So I don’t see how societal bounds discouraged Jesus from having female apostles.

I was always taught that Mary M was a close confidant and possible financier of Jesus. But we will never know. There are big gaps in Jesus’ history. His life was chronicled by men who were not as scandalous as Jesus. They may have left women out on purpose.

 

[zz912]

I was always taught that Mary M was a close confidant and possible financier of Jesus. But we will never know. There are big gaps in Jesus’ history. His life was chronicled by men who were not as scandalous as Jesus. They may have left women out on purpose.

Those men who you’re subtly accusing of lying about the teachings of Jesus were martyred for the scandal they caused by proclaiming the Gospel.