Pope Francis drives a wedge between Catholic Church, GOP

[shelby_sun]

All I can tell you is that where I live and grew up, which is a relatively new big city in the US, historically speaking, that has a very big Catholic community, has had no wedge between the CC and the GOP. Those that followed the GOP, which has always been the majority, still do.

Because we do not have the “older Catholics” and because we have a large number of Catholic schools, Catholic here realize that when it comes to politics you do have to pick from the lesser of two evils has far as the issues are concerned and if you don’t you simple cannot vote. That is the reality and you simple cannot get around it. Now those evils are different for everyone.

 

[KP3243]

Until I see something from a legitimate Catholic new source or the Vatican website, I am not going to get worked up about anything. Let’s be serious the media hardly ever gets Pope Francis right, it was just two weeks ago that NBC and other national news outlets ran the story that Pope Francis said dogs go to heaven only to have to retract it three days later because they didn’t fact check it and he never even said it! I suspect if there is an encyclical on anything it is probably how the poorer nations are almost directly impacted by the environment much more than wealthier ones. I know my church has a twin parish in Haiti and the region they are in was so heavily logged that it caused deforestation and when hurricanes hit Haiti it causes massive mudslides and killed so many people every year that the local priests purchased the deforested land so they can stop the logging to save its own people and we have been trying to replace the trees which is insanely hard to do because they don’t have irrigation and running water so the trees often die of drought or die in a mudslide because they don’t have deep roots yet.

 

[brian_custer]

our pope should be speaking more about the persecution of the unborn, middle eastern christians and the godlessness of secular europe; and imo a lot less about global warming

 

[livingwordunity]

This isn’t true and we should stop being fatalistic in every decision. We’ve had good popes and bad popes. Did the Renaissance need the Borges popes? The only thing guaranteed is that the Church doesn’t teach error.

The Republican party isn’t the Ayn Rand party. It’s a conservative party that encourages charity. Republicans give more money to charity than Democrats. There are more ways than government to help the poor and it’s fair to say that much government harms poor people in the long run, especially government that encourages immorality. The bottom line is that these things are debatable. What’s not debatable is abortion and dudes marrying each other.

Well said.

 

[KP3243]

our pope should be speaking more about the persecution of the unborn, middle eastern christians and the godlessness of secular europe; and imo a lot less about global warming

Don’t get all worked about global warming. It would serve us well to remember how often His predecessor spoke on the environment and climate change. If there is an encyclical in the works I suspect it will take the tone of Chapter 4 of Benedict’s encyclical CARITAS IN VERITATE.

 

[KP3243]

One of the worst things man can do is try to fit the divine into a political context, it’s why our Lord so profusely refuted a political kingship people kept wanting to put him in.

If we continue thinking along these lines it becomes apparent that what we are doing is rooted in our own egoism. When the mother of Zebedee’s sons, James and John petitions Jesus to have her sons sit to his right and the left in the Kingdom he is creating in Matthew 20 20-28 people’s true colors are revealed and Jesus calls them all out on it.

Articles like this are just a modern way of man trying to position himself, mainly his ego into showing that he is right while others are wrong giving him satisfaction that he is better. This article isn’t about global warming or climate change, is is about feeding egos. The real danger is that people don’t recognize this.

 

[ProVobis]

Isn’t that what all Catholics are called to do, according to our needs? Charity is not a political virtue, but a theological virtue. I would hope that all here on both sides of the aisle politically will evaluate their blessings and help others accordingly.

I agree but if I were given a dollar for every worldwide comment that I’ve read to the theme of “I’m not Catholic but I like this Pope,” I would be rich and expect charitable contributions to go through the roof from everyone.

 

[rfournier103]

And I suspect Pope Francis could care less if Republicans or Democrats don’t like what he has to say or think.

I am SOOOOOO tired of people who look at this Pope through the prism of American politics, left and right.

A belated merry Christmas to you, old friend!

I agree on both of your points here. It is not any pope’s responsibility to conform Christ’s teachings or a pope’s message to any political entity in any country. The fact that so many in the American media and government want him to do so is, as you said, tiresome.

The mistake would be that people ever thought the GOP (or any other political party) is fully Catholic.

They aren’t and they shouldn’t be mistaken as such.

Amen.

The vast majority of Democrats are pro-abortion. Clearly against Catholic teaching. The vast majority of Republicans are pro-death penalty. Also against Catholic teaching. I KNOW THAT ABORTIONS OUTNUMBER EXECUTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES BY A STAGGERING PERCENTAGE. However, these principles are at the core values of MOST of the members of these parties; and the discrepancy between the numbers of abortions and executions do not change the fact that they have both been denounced by the Bishop of Rome over the decades.

These are just two examples of how both parties hold positions that are against Church teachings. The fact that ANY party would think that they could take the ‘Catholic’ vote for granted is a mis-step on their part.

I AGREE! Since Roe was inacted 42 years ago, the Dems have held the presidency for 20 years and the GOP for 22. Was abortion outlawed during those years by either party? NO!

The President of the United States is POWERLESS to do anything to outlaw abortion other than appoint Supreme Court Justices that will overturn that decision. To get THAT done; it would take decades of appointments over multiple presidencies. And even then, a case challenging Roe would have to make it all the way up to the USSC.

Other than THAT - Congress would have to act; and especially in these days of fractured American politics that would be quite a feat indeed.

Why do people like to apply American politics to Pope Francis?

Why not? Americans apply politics to EVERYTHING ELSE.

The number of Americans who actually watch MSNBC, Fox, CNN, etc. is ridiculously small.

But if planes go missing, CNN does do a good job being right on the story and live.

I know I don’t watch any of them. When major news stories are happening - I watch CNN for the headlines and on-the-ground reporting. I NEVER EVER EVER watch the ‘talking head shows.’

It’s amazing how people forget that he’s Pope of Catholics in over 200 countries besides the USA.

A very good point. As Americans, we tend to think the universe revolves around us. That’s not sarcasm…

hmm, the Pope asking for compassion for all people, gay and straight, believing in the reality of climate change, and suggesting all people, including Atheists can get to Heaven?

Hmm, of course this would drive a wedge between the GOP, but thankfully it is uniting the rest of the world, especially young people, and giving them a wonderful breath of fresh air.

His kindness, his tone, and his beautiful messages of peace, acceptance, tolerance and kindness are definitely changing the world, and the way the world looks at the Catholic Church. Which is a great thing.

I do hope you do yourself the favor of not mistaking “kindness”, “peace”, and “tolerance” with “approval”.

My mother and father always respected me no matter what I did; but believe me… they did not approve of everything I did or believed. There is a HUGE difference my friend. Keep that in mind.

Pope Francis has made the Church relevant again, and certainly has people talking. That’s part of his job. The bug is in the world’s ear and the rest is up to them.

I, for one, wish that His Holiness would be much more blunt at times; but apparently that’s not his style. I accept that he does not need to tailor his delivery of the Gospel to suit me. Pope Francis is CLEARLY his own man, and will obviously continue to helm the Bark of St. Peter as he sees fit; whether the GOP (or anyone else) likes it or not.

I hope you all will continue to join me praying for his ministry and our Church.

 

[Path_Finder]

A belated merry Christmas to you, old friend!

I agree on both of your points here. It is not any pope’s responsibility to conform Christ’s teachings or a pope’s message to any political entity in any country. The fact that so many in the American media and government want him to do so is, as you said, tiresome.

Amen.

The vast majority of Democrats are pro-abortion. Clearly against Catholic teaching. The vast majority of Republicans are pro-death penalty. Also against Catholic teaching. I KNOW THAT ABORTIONS OUTNUMBER EXECUTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES BY A STAGGERING PERCENTAGE. However, these principles are at the core values of MOST of the members of these parties; and the discrepancy between the numbers of abortions and executions do not change the fact that they have both been denounced by the Bishop of Rome over the decades.

These are just two examples of how both parties hold positions that are against Church teachings. The fact that ANY party would think that they could take the ‘Catholic’ vote for granted is a mis-step on their part.

The President of the United States is POWERLESS to do anything to outlaw abortion other than appoint Supreme Court Justices that will overturn that decision. To get THAT done; it would take decades of appointments over multiple presidencies. And even then, a case challenging Roe would have to make it all the way up to the USSC.

Other than THAT - Congress would have to act; and especially in these days of fractured American politics that would be quite a feat indeed.

Why not? Americans apply politics to EVERYTHING ELSE.

I know I don’t watch any of them. When major news stories are happening - I watch CNN for the headlines and on-the-ground reporting. I NEVER EVER EVER watch the ‘talking head shows.’

A very good point. As Americans, we tend to think the universe revolves around us. That’s not sarcasm…

I do hope you do yourself the favor of not mistaking “kindness”, “peace”, and “tolerance” with “approval”.

My mother and father always respected me no matter what I did; but believe me… they did not approve of everything I did or believed. There is a HUGE difference my friend. Keep that in mind.

Pope Francis has made the Church relevant again, and certainly has people talking. That’s part of his job. The bug is in the world’s ear and the rest is up to them.

I, for one, wish that His Holiness would be much more blunt at times; but apparently that’s not his style. I accept that he does not need to tailor his delivery of the Gospel to suit me. Pope Francis is CLEARLY his own man, and will obviously continue to helm the Bark of St. Peter as he sees fit; whether the GOP (or anyone else) likes it or not.

I hope you all will continue to join me praying for his ministry and our Church.

However, the Death Penalty is NOT a non-negotiable issue.

Abortion, Same-Sex Marriage, Euthanasia, Embryonic Stem Cell Research, human cloning, ALL ARE NON-NEGOTIABLE ISSUES THAT ARE NOT ON THE SAME FOOTING as the Death Penalty. There are only 5 non-negotiables.

stjoseph-marysville.org/faqnonnegotiables.html

*Some issues allow for a diversity of opinion, and Catholics are permitted leeway in endorsing or opposing particular policies. This is the case with the questions of when to go to war and when to apply the death penalty. Though the Church urges caution regarding both of these issues, it acknowledges that the state has the right to employ them in some circumstances *(CCC 2309, 2267).

So the Church doesn’t equalize these issues.

Pro-Lifers certainly seem to get pilloried for trying to stand up for what is right. I will NEVER EVER EVER condemn pro-lifers. Never condemn them in a general way, if a renegade commits violence, that is unacceptable.

 

[estesbob]

A belated merry Christmas to you, old friend!

I agree on both of your points here. It is not any pope’s responsibility to conform Christ’s teachings or a pope’s message to any political entity in any country. The fact that so many in the American media and government want him to do so is, as you said, tiresome.

Amen.

The vast majority of Democrats are pro-abortion. Clearly against Catholic teaching. The vast majority of Republicans are pro-death penalty. Also against Catholic teaching. I KNOW THAT ABORTIONS OUTNUMBER EXECUTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES BY A STAGGERING PERCENTAGE. However, these principles are at the core values of MOST of the members of these parties; and the discrepancy between the numbers of abortions and executions do not change the fact that they have both been denounced by the Bishop of Rome over the decades.

These are just two examples of how both parties hold positions that are against Church teachings. The fact that ANY party would think that they could take the ‘Catholic’ vote for granted is a mis-step

.

This is not correct. The church does now and always has allowed for the death penalty. Although I personally oppose it there is no moral equivalency between supporting abortion and supporting the death penalty . Pope Benedict himself made it clear that a Catholic in good conscience can support the death penalty ,but never abortion

 

[Path_Finder]

This is not correct. The church does now and always has allowed for the death penalty. Although I personally oppose it there is no moral equivalency between supporting abortion and supporting the death penalty . Pope Benedict himself made it clear that a Catholic in good conscience can support the death penalty ,but never abortion

I never support the death penalty either. Some crimes are very heinous and it is understandable sometimes why capital punishment is imposed even if I am not in agreement with it.

 

[rfournier103]

I have always been under the impression that the Church has said that every chance must be given to a criminal to repent of his crimes, and that capital punnishment only shortens the time allowed to do so.

I was certainly happy that the US was able to find and “pacify” Osama bin Laden. I was only using that one example (erroneously, apparently) to illustrate that there is no one party that represents everything that the Church stands for.

That is all.

 

[FollowChrist34]

That sounds just about correct. Actually, the problem is that concerning the “non-negotiables” (abortion, gay “marriage”, embryonic stem-cell research, human cloning, euthanasia), the GOP stance is, generally the same as the Catholic Church’s (none of the above are to be tolerated), while the Dem stance is, generally, the opposite of the Church’s stance (thinking all of the above are basic human “rights”). It’s sad, really, because that’s pretty much the ONLY stances that the GOP and Catholic Churrch have in common with each other. Church teaching does not support a hard-line on immigration, for example, nor does it support a “let the poor fend for themselves” policy (which, though, not an official GOP position, seems to be a position held by some in the party). It also does not support burying one’s head in the sand regarding science, whether it be global warming or evolution.

This is so true. It just tears me up. And this mess is further complicated these days by the fact that the Democrats are more and more in bed with big business and the wealthy and the Republicans are throwing over fights for traditional marriage and in some (by no means all) cases, even the fight against some forms of abortion and contraception, especially Republicans in blue states. Also so called culture war issues, like Common Core. It’s like the parties are agreeing to lead us to hell as soon as possible. Pick your poison.

Just choose the lesser of the two evils…case by case basis. I am leaning Republican these days, though I wish they would bend on the environment, also develop a better sense of balance of the common good and economic prosperity. The free market is kind of an idol to them.

 

[Ender]

It’s sad, really, because that’s pretty much the ONLY stances that the GOP and Catholic Church have in common with each other.

The church has very few doctrines that apply directly to political issues, and those only for issues involving intrinsic evils. These are in fact the issues you indirectly refer to here.

Church teaching does not support a hard-line on immigration…

On issues like immigration, health care, the budget, the minimum wage, etc, the church has no position at all. She has general doctrines that specify the ends toward which we should work - feed the hungry, heal the sick…- but she does not address the means that should be taken to achieve those ends. Those are prudential questions about which people may legitimately disagree. There is no “church side” on these issues.

…nor does it support a “let the poor fend for themselves” policy (which, though, not an official GOP position, seems to be a position held by some in the party).

It’s hard to understand how people can actually believe such silliness.

It is not Pope Francis who is driving a wedge; that is being done by those using his words to achieve political goals. There are church doctrines that are at odds with specific goals expressed by the Democrat party in the areas of abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage, etc. There are no doctrines at odds with any goal expressed by the GOP. What there are are differences of opinions about how to secure the generic ends toward which we are all obliged to work.

Ender

 

[Path_Finder]

The church has very few doctrines that apply directly to political issues, and those only for issues involving intrinsic evils. These are in fact the issues you indirectly refer to here.
On issues like immigration, health care, the budget, the minimum wage, etc, the church has no position at all. She has general doctrines that specify the ends toward which we should work - feed the hungry, heal the sick…- but she does not address the means that should be taken to achieve those ends. Those are prudential questions about which people may legitimately disagree. There is no “church side” on these issues.
It’s hard to understand how people can actually believe such silliness.

It is not Pope Francis who is driving a wedge; that is being done by those using his words to achieve political goals. There are church doctrines that are at odds with specific goals expressed by the Democrat party in the areas of abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage, etc. There are no doctrines at odds with any goal expressed by the GOP. What there are are differences of opinions about how to secure the generic ends toward which we are all obliged to work.

Ender

Very commendable post.

 

[shelby_sun]

As for me, as a Catholic I listen to what the Church teaches, but I do not want to hear what it has to say about the GOP or the Democrats view in America, just like I do not want my goverment involved in my Church. Of course The Church can say whatever it feel it needs to; however I keep them separate or I simply could not vote.

 

[Path_Finder]

Party doesn’t matter to me, I’m not going to vote for death for infants. That’s all there is to it! Nothing needed to keep separate, I’m not voting for atrocious things.

Social programs too, are largely not working for the compassion that some feign, in fact, they may well be doing a lot of damage as well.

 

[shelby_sun]

Party doesn’t matter to me, I’m not going to vote for death for infants. That’s all there is to it! Nothing needed to keep separate, I’m not voting for atrocious things.

Social programs too, are largely not working for the compassion that some feign, in fact, they may well be doing a lot of damage as well.

So do you stop voting if both parties someday push to allow abortion, which is a possibility, do you stop voting? And if so where does that get you? Just asking, not judging, promise!

 

[Path_Finder]

So do you stop voting if both parties someday push to allow abortion, which is a possibility, do you stop voting? And if so where does that get you? Just asking, not judging, promise!

First off, I think we need to negate the premise that the Church tells us to vote for any party. I have never been in a Church where they tell you to vote for a party nor read any such articles.

After that, the Church does seem to counsel certain issues as to what is important. Then it is left up to our conscience.

So, back to your question, I vote as best in regards to the issues we are instructed on.

 

[gracepoole]

The so-called non-negotiables were crafted by a layman and the voting guide that was produced around them received approval from the USCCB. They were not identified by the Vatican. This is interesting reading: Pope’s Theologian Discusses the Distortion of Non-Negotiable Principles