Pope Francis drives a wedge between Catholic Church, GOP

[gracepoole]

One of the problems is that we have a million different taxes. Why do we need a SS tax, a Medicare tax and an income tax. If we combined the three into one tax we would have few people who pay nothing. Problem solved.

No! It’s important to keep them separated so we can still yell about the 47% who are often too poor to pay!

 

[pnewton]

I don’t mean to sound flip but for many (many) in our communities, there are monthly choices made regarding paying for rent or paying for heat, paying for gas or paying for food, paying for medications or paying for childcare. I get that to many $5 or $10 sounds like “a little” but the practical reality of poverty means it’s just not there for those at the lowest economic point. That’s why their tax burden has been eliminated.

I know why. I just do not agree. Privilege without responsibility is never good though. The fact that it is not a little to them is the point. Even the widow could give her mite.

 

[gracepoole]

I know why. I just do not agree. Privilege without responsibility is never good though. The fact that it is not a little to them is the point. Even the widow could give her mite.

But what sort of decision does this force on many in poverty and at the most marginalized fringes of our communities? Is it truly moral to force these people to make a choice between necessities (food, shelter, clothing, medication) and demonstrating a principle?

 

[pnewton]

But what sort of decision does this force on many in poverty and at the most marginalized fringes of our communities? Is it truly moral to force these people to make a choice between necessities (food, shelter, clothing, medication) and demonstrating a principle?

If I did not believe it moral, I would not have suggested it. I think the choice you give are more rhetorical than real. Five dollars do not pay rent, clothe, feed and medicate. There are programs in place for people in dire situations.

 

[gracepoole]

If I did not believe it moral, I would not have suggested it. I think the choice you give are more rhetorical than real. Five dollars do not pay rent, clothe, feed and medicate. There are programs in place for people in dire situations.

See, this is where we differ and I was indeed worried that folks would read my comments as coming from some sort of rhetorical bleeding heart place. But having lived in the sort of circumstance I described, I most definitely am noting legitimate problems that are based in reality. Yes, there are programs in place for people in dire situations. These programs rarely provide enough assistance. See something like this, for example. Or consider those on medicare (which covers just over 60% of medical expenses) who can’t afford supplemental insurance. Again, $5 or $10 may seem like chump change. For many, it’s a meal or gas money to get to work.

 

[pnewton]

See, this is where we differ …

Yes, we differ but it is not for lack of experience. I know the value of pennies and still believe as I do, that such a choice is more rhetorical than real. The point remains, I believe that one who pays nothing toward a budget should have zero say over how that budget is spent. People who have the ability to vote themselves the right to take money from others is also a form of tyranny, and in my opinion, an immoral violation of the Seventh Commandment.

I think those who pay no income tax should have no more right to vote in federal elections than do citizens from Borneo, or no more right than I have to tell you how to budget your money at home, making you give me some. This is the Great Responsibility Disconnect of the Democratic Party.

Likewise, the GOP lost me with their own disconnect of supporting the War on Terror and asking for tax cuts at the same time. I would say responsible leaderships would have increased taxes and asked all to tighten their belts to pay for a war. If there is not support to pay for a war, then there is not support for a war.

 

[Crossbones]

I think those who pay no income tax should have no more right to vote in federal elections than do citizens from Borneo, or no more right than I have to tell you how to budget your money at home, making you give me some. This is the Great Responsibility Disconnect of the Democratic Party.

.

Is it enough that someone buys a pack of cigarettes ($1.01 federal tax a pack) or a gallon of gas ($0.184 federal tax per gallon) that you’d be ok with them voting or must it be the federal income tax?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I think those who pay no income tax should have no more right to vote in federal elections than do citizens from Borneo, or no more right than I have to tell you how to budget your money at home, making you give me some.

The founding fathers of the US disagreed with you when they set up the Constitution.

If we follow your logic to its conclusion, then people who pay 100 times as much income tax as some other person, that first person should get 100 times as many votes. Yet we have a 1-person 1-vote system. Are you against that too?

 

[pnewton]

The founding fathers of the US disagreed with you when they set up the Constitution.

Did they tell you that? You might want to check the history of the vote. You might also want to actually read the Constitution before saying what you think is in it.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Did they tell you that? You might want to check the history of the vote. You might also want to actually read the Constitution before saying what you think is in it.

I know what is not in it: a qualification based on paying income tax. There was no income tax until the Civil War.

 

[qui_est_ce]

So, the question is, how would you change the tax law? Would you make employer paid health insurance premiums taxable, make social security benefits fully taxable, would you get rid of IRA and 401k deductions?

I would get rid of the standard deduction and personal exemptions. I would get rid of the mortgage interest deduction. I would eliminate the cap on Social Security contributions. If you receive SS, your contribution gets taxed again if you make more than $34,000.00 singe and $44,000 MFJ. That’s not hard to reach if you continue to work or get a conventional IRA payout while receiving Social Security. Doesn’t seem fair.

 

[qui_est_ce]

What we really need is major federal tax reform.

YUP.

 

[zz912]

I know what is not in it: a qualification based on paying income tax. There was no income tax until the Civil War.

And ruled unconstitutional several times, because it is contrary to the nature of our Republic.

We need to eliminate the income tax. The govt has no business knowing the income of citizens.

 

[SWolf]

I would get rid of the standard deduction and personal exemptions. I would get rid of the mortgage interest deduction. I would eliminate the cap on Social Security contributions. If you receive SS, your contribution gets taxed again if you make more than $34,000.00 singe and $44,000 MFJ. That’s not hard to reach if you continue to work or get a conventional IRA payout while receiving Social Security. Doesn’t seem fair.

And the government will spend the extra revenue, we will still be in the red, and the economy will suffer. That’s how it always has been.

How about we concentrate on rolling back the excessive scope creep in our social programs and military?

 

[SWolf]

And ruled unconstitutional several times, because it is contrary to the nature of our Republic.

We need to eliminate the income tax. The govt has no business knowing the income of citizens.

:extrahappy:

 

[stinkcat_14]

And the government will spend the extra revenue, we will still be in the red, and the economy will suffer. That’s how it always has been.

How about we concentrate on rolling back the excessive scope creep in our social programs and military?

Actually, the question I asked her was: “how would you change the tax law?”, so she was not responding to a broad question of how much government should we have in society.

 

[SWolf]

Actually, the question I asked her was: “how would you change the tax law?”, so she was not responding to a broad question of how much government should we have in society.

I also read her subsequent post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14 View Post
What we really need is major federal tax reform.
YUP.

I read the message in the context of the general discussion of the national debt burden. If this was not the context, I apologize for the hijack.

If that was the context:
If you are trying to streamline the tax code to make it simpler and not as a ploy to increase government revenue, I can get behind it.

If the change in tax code is to increase revenue to try and pay off the debt, you’re going down the wrong rabbit hole.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I also read her subsequent post:

If that was the context:
If you are trying to streamline the tax code to make it simpler and not as a ploy to increase government revenue, I can get behind it.

If the change in tax code is to increase revenue to try and pay off the debt, you’re going down the wrong rabbit hole.

This.

 

[ProVobis]

If their income is low enough their social security is not taxable.

And it keeps getting lower as their CD’s mature and they have to settle for much lower returns from their savings, whatever there is still left of it.

Thank you, Bernanke, for all that money you dropped from your helicopter.

 

[stinkcat_14]

And it keeps getting lower as their CD’s mature and they have to settle for much lower returns from their savings, whatever there is still left of it.

Thank you, Bernanke, for all that money you dropped from your helicopter.

That is true. I have often thought that it was terribly unjust to bailout people with big adjustable rate debts with lower interest rates while decreasing the income of people who actually saved.