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estesbob
Guest
More to point is the idea one can support abortion as long as they don’t think is a"good thing"
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Yeoman
Guest
I have to say, I can’t see where we Catholics are really treated as a potent block by either party, any more. JFK’s compromise on his stated guiding principals when he was elected basically broke that.
I mean, is there a true “Catholic Vote”? Perhaps to some extent, but a lot of Catholics seem pretty willing to take the JFK approach and be Catholic mostly on Sunday. Until we really actually hold politicians accountable, truly, neither the Democrats or the Republicans need to worry about “wedges”. In your area, is their a politician that hangs around outside the Church door to press the flesh with Catholics? If not, I doubt they see you as a block.
While not directly on point, I’ll also note that the tiring story of Mitt Romney running yet again ties into this, oddly enough, as Romney proposed to follow our Catholic President JFK, for the Mormons, by not appearing to be too Mormon so as to scare the general public. Mormons are a voting block in some regions of the West, but I wonder if they’d loose that status if they follow down our tread worn path here.
I mean, is there a true “Catholic Vote”? Perhaps to some extent, but a lot of Catholics seem pretty willing to take the JFK approach and be Catholic mostly on Sunday. Until we really actually hold politicians accountable, truly, neither the Democrats or the Republicans need to worry about “wedges”. In your area, is their a politician that hangs around outside the Church door to press the flesh with Catholics? If not, I doubt they see you as a block.
While not directly on point, I’ll also note that the tiring story of Mitt Romney running yet again ties into this, oddly enough, as Romney proposed to follow our Catholic President JFK, for the Mormons, by not appearing to be too Mormon so as to scare the general public. Mormons are a voting block in some regions of the West, but I wonder if they’d loose that status if they follow down our tread worn path here.
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Path_Finder
Guest
The sanctity of life is noted when one calls the defunding of America’s biggest abortion provider “marginal” and saving babies from being torn to pieces “marginal”.
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stinkcat_14
Guest
Have they been defended? If PP has not, then the republican effect has been marginal.The sanctity of life is noted when one calls the defunding of America’s biggest abortion provider “marginal” and saving babies from being torn to pieces “marginal”.
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Path_Finder
Guest
Source? Or is that just an opinion. At the least, that is one of a variety of reasons.
I would not underestimate that the pro-choice side and Planned Parenthood have closed clinics especially because they have been unfunded by States. There is NO way around that.
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Crossbones
Guest
I don’t see how, after someone says that they use the platform to determine that the Democrats are out of line with Catholic teaching and the Republicans are not, it is a deflection to point out that a party platform is a poor indicator of how a party will govern and provide evidence as such.
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PeopleB4Things
Guest
I think we’re saying the same thing. Education/healthcare svs and govt programs provide men and women with choices other than resorting to abortions. That includes vasectomies, condoms, oral contraceptives, health education, etc. Going to a govt supported women’s heathcare clinic and learning how to correctly use OTC ovulation kits can help people avoid fertile days with pretty good accuracy. That fits in with the Church’s approved method of birth control.
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PeopleB4Things
Guest
The truth is not derogatory, but the comment in question was not the truth. Also, your assertion that the DNC promotes intrinsic evil is untrue. The same assessment has been made of republicans, that they are just greedy, arrogant people with the me-me complex. I don’t agree with that either. These are all just hurtful words slung at each other in anger and in fear. We need to get beyond that.
To answer your question, when I vote I look at the candidates and ask:
Do you support life/dignity by supporting a ban on capital punishment? Do you support life/dignity by supporting the EPA’s climate control measures? Do you support life/dignity by supporting govt programs that help the poor and the displaced with food, housing, job training, education and healthcare? Do you support life/dignity by opposing US troop engagements unless they are deployed to provide humanitarian aid or to fend off direct military invasion of our 50 states and our territories? Do you support life/dignity by supporting a ban on torture? Do you support life/dignity by supporting universal background checks on all gun sales and transfers? Do you support life/dignity by supporting strong sex education in our middle and high schools that includes a section on abstinence? Do you support life/dignity by supporting a ban on abortions when the life of the mother is not in question? If abortions are outlawed, do you support life/dignity by supporting govt programs that pay the pregnancy, birth and post-natal costs of poor women denied abortion services? Do you support life/dignity by supporting financial programs that provide for poor children who would have otherwise been aborted (birth thru college)? Do you support life/dignity by supporting a ban on euthanasia? Do you support life/dignity by supporting an immigration policy that puts the life and dignity of immigrants above all else? Do you support economic policies that support life/dignity of individuals/families by supporting constructs of self sufficiency like liveable wages and equal opportunities?
I review candidates’ platforms, look at their voting records and do other research. Then I ask myself, who is the candidate most likely to accomplish or support this list of pro-life things. I’m not a one issue voter. I vote for who is more likely to walk the talk of Christ overall.
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cena
Guest
"
It is clear that, for the [purposes of punishment] to be achieved,the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and [the state] ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent. —Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae 56, emphasis in the original."
"
catholic.com/magazine/articles/did-the-church-change-its-teaching-on-the-death-penalty
Under some circumstances the death penalty can be just.
And abortion is not okay if the mother’s life is threatened. The doctor can remove the uterus(or maybe it was something else, but basically the child is alive when the doctor removes it), put the mother into labor early, etc. Also, if the baby dies in the process of saving the mother (like she takes medicine that has a side effect of killing the baby) as long as that was a side effect and the purpose was to save the mother that is not an abortion. If the main purpose was to kill the baby that is an abortion.
Also, the problem with immigration is that they are coming here illegally. There are a lot of criminals coming in because no one is stopping them or reviewing them.
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estesbob
Guest
None of what you list is meaningful to those denied the right to life. Without the right to life all other weights are meaningless.
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Darryl1958
Guest
The DNC does promote intrinsic evil. Anne Coulter is spot one when she says something to the effect that abortion is the glue that holds that coalition together.
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PeopleB4Things
Guest
My list directly addresses our society’s problems with denying life. People die from war, from starvation, from lack of healthcare, from abortion, from neglect, from abuse, etc. Innocents prematurely die from all kinds of things. They are all equally children of God and they all equally deserve our help, regardless of age, income, nationality, political party, sex, etc. I have to admit, I find it easier to help some people more so than others, but I recognize that it’s because of my own limited views. I try to reach out to every child of God regardless of my preferences, my bigotry, my hate. It’s hard. Lots of prayers. I work with the indigent, most of whom are hard working and gracious people. When our social worker helps them acquire govt services, you can see those gifts from God in action. But I do get my fair share of people with violent mental health issues who I’m am literally scared to be around. But I know I have to get over myself because God calls me to be more than my own predilections.
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estesbob
Guest
Again all the good intentions in the world are meaningless to those denied the right to life . You simply cannot get around the fact that the Democrat Party is the inexorably wedded to the culture of death and stands in direct opposition to the core moral teachings of the Catholic Church. There’s no way to rationalize supporting them and claiming adherence to our faith
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Path_Finder
Guest
Again, these are your personal beliefs, we are talking about things that are in Vatican documents.
And between red states, blue states, I don’t think one party has a corner on compassion.
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PeopleB4Things
Guest
When you invoked Coulter I knew you were being sarcastic. My favorite quote of hers about climate change is
“The ethic of conservation is the explicit abnegation of man´s dominion over the Earth. The lower species are here for our use. God said so: Go forth, be fruitful, multiply, and rape the planet - it´s yours. That´s our job: drilling, mining and stripping. Sweaters are the anti-Biblical view. Big gas-guzzling cars with phones and CD players and wet bars - that´s the Biblical view.” Ann Coulter 12/10/00
But my all time favorite quote of hers is:
“I think [women] should be armed but should not vote…women have no capacity to understand how money is earned. They have a lot of ideas on how to spend it…it´s always more money on education, more money on child care, more money on day care.” 02/26/01
She’s certainly worth her weight as an entertainer. A female version of Rodney Dangerfield. Biting inappropriate outlandish sarcastic humor. She makes Bill Maher look like the altar boy he once was.
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PeopleB4Things
Guest
We weren’t talking about Vatican documents unless I missed something. This particular discussion started when I was asked my criteria for voting. I vote for candidates who fight for the life and dignity of God’s children in all aspects. The candidate who supports life and dignity the most gets my vote.
I agree that we shouldn’t vote party line, red or blue, but vote for the best person. I look at it this way. If I was a widow and I met someone whom I was very attracted to, who was lovely to me but she ended up being mean to my kids, should I marry her? That’s the way I feel about candidates. If I was a single issue voter, if I voted purely to satisfy my own desires, if I didn’t look at the entire package, the fate of others around me may be at risk. So I do the research and I vote for the best overall person.
I choose life and dignity as my criteria for voting. I tend to vote for liberals because their voting records tend be more aligned with helping the poor, the environment, victims, etc. I have no control what others use as their criteria. What others do, how they vote, is totally up to them. I have many good friends, many dear family members of both political leanings.
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FollowChrist34
Guest
0107:
As far as the USCCB is concerned, a Catholic can vote liberal or conservative. A Catholic can even vote in support of a candidate who supports the intrinsic evil of abortion (or racism) IF the voter does not cast his/her vote in favor of the intrinsic evil. A Catholic is compelled to examine his/her conscience with respect to a candidate’s position on EVERY issue, and then vote his/her conscience.
usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship-part-one.cfm
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estesbob
Guest
You can only vote for a pro abortion candidate if their opponent is more pro abortion than they are.This is what Fauthful Citizenship explains You have taken it out of of text. As Cardinal Burke explains :
"You can never vote for someone who favors absolutely the right to choice of a woman to destroy a human life in her womb or the right to a procured abortion."He adds that voters “may in some circumstances, where you don’t have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country. But you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone.”
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Since this statement by Cardinal Burke seems to in contradiction to the statement by all the US bishops cited earlier, how does one decide which one is wrong?
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estesbob
Guest
There is no contradiction.Faithful citizenship was referring to same situation Burke was.Where both candidates support abortion you may vote for the one who is least pro-abortion.
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