Pope Francis' first moves hint at break with past

[Lucky7]

I was referring to red shoes. I’m sure that the Holy Father is at least as much aware about the symbolism of the red shoes as are certain posters on CAF, aren’t you?

The Pope choosing to omit wearing the red shoes is in itself a form of symbolism. The Holy father is guided by the Holy Spirit, let the Holy Father choose the style of dress and behaviour that he thinks best fits with the symbolism that he feels appropriate to the direction the Holy Spirit is guiding him to lead the Church in. A simpler, less remote, less institutional Church perhaps? A poorer Church in terms of it’s material nature? Less of an institutional nature, more a communion of the faithful perhaps?

I’m sure that the Holy Father knows exactly what he’s doing in terms of the symbolism he chooses to use. Why not have some trust in his actions and accept that perhaps he knows better than we do in this regard.

Maybe he could explain why he chose to get rid of certain things that hold certain significance, such as martyrdom. I would think that most Catholics would be more open to changes such as these if we understood it. I get dressing simpler for humility’s sake, etc. I don’t get getting rid of the symbolism associated with the saints who have* died witnessing to their Catholic Faith*. Does he think that this is offensive to others? Or perhaps he plans on wearing something else that symbolizes the martyrs? The Pope should teach us, so if there is a teaching moment here I’d like to know what it is.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Maybe he could explain why he chose to get rid of certain things that hold certain significance, such as martyrdom. I would think that most Catholics would be more open to changes such as these if we understood it. I get dressing simpler for humility’s sake, etc. I don’t get getting rid of the symbolism associated with the saints who have* died witnessing to their Catholic Faith*. Does he think that this is offensive to others? Or perhaps he plans on wearing something else that symbolizes the martyrs? The Pope should teach us, so if there is a teaching moment here I’d like to know what it is.

The red shoes are not the only thing that can witness to the faith of the martyrs. I am sure that the Pope will manage to come up with another sign of that faith.

The other completely practical thing no one has mentioned is that perhaps he wear an orthodic and needs shoes with laces.

 

[quiet52]

Re: the red shoes vs. the black shoes issue … black shoes aren’t necessarily simpler, they’re just different. “Different” is okay.

I had a simple pair of red leather shoes years ago – they cost me about $25 and lasted almost ten years – they cost less and lasted longer than any pair of black shoes I had.

I don’t think anyone should jump to any conclusions … or “value” judgements … about either pope based on the shoes they chose to wear. People might be making much ado about nothing?

And … maybe Pope Francis didn’t have enough TIME to go shoe shopping! Or maybe he didn’t want blisters from a new pair of shoes, during his first days.

 

[jwinch2]

Great Post!

I see a lot of humility in our New Pope Francis. A strong example to the entire Catholic Church to shrug off some of its materialistic superficial pomp and gird-up our ourselves with the garb of humility itself.

In Fraternal Peace
Chris

Its not materialistic or superficial to keep reminders around that the papacy is not about you but rather about all who came before you and all who died in the Faith. This helps the pope stay humble, because it helps him recognize that the office is not his to change, and that every decision he makes must be in continuity with all of the popes who came before him; and, will affect every Catholic who comes after him. The red shoes were put in place to help keep popes humble, not to puff them up.

It also serves as a visible reminder for the curia and others who work in the Vatican every time they see him to remember the same thing. It would do the same for us if we would only take the time to learn the meaning of our traditions before throwing them out. In 2000 years, the Church has developed some extraneous traditions to be sure, but the majority of them are there for good reason. Which is more humble, to recognize that there are good reasons for the things which were done in the past and that accepting them might cause others to think you are less humble, or getting rid of them?

 

[Tobias22]

The Billy Graham of South America is friendly with the Pope and speaks highly of him. I get the sense he will be very ecumenical. Calling for an internal conversion moreso than emphasizing a formal conversion to the Catholic church. That seems to be his thoughts re: Anglicans.

In his talk to religious leaders he said:

ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Va…#ixzz2O5WXcNOz

Quote:
“We feel close to all who, despite being from other traditions and religions, feel the desire to look for truth, beauty and goodness," said the new Pope when he received the leaders at the Vatican today.

This is very promising. I really think the Pope will carry out V2’ s promise.

 

[fix]

The Billy Graham of South America is friendly with the Pope and speaks highly of him. I get the sense he will be very ecumenical. Calling for an internal conversion moreso than emphasizing a formal conversion to the Catholic church. That seems to be his thoughts re: Anglicans.

Where has he said this?

 

[Tobias22]

Where has he said this?

I heard it on EWTN. I believe he wrote the article in Christianity Today about the new Pope.

His name is Luis Palou and he draws thousands to his revival meetings in South America.

According to Palau the then Cardinal asked Palau to lay hands on him and pray for him.

**The fiery preacher who some have called the “Latin Billy Graham,” said whenever they prayed together, Bergoglio asked him to “lay your hands on me and pray for me, that God will keep me as servant.” The new pope is respectful of all sides of Christianity, Palau said, adding the press referred to him as the “evangelical pope” in 2008.
Read more at christianpost.com/news/luis-palau-new-pope-francis-a-friend-of-evangelicals-92002/#eGM2DPjBuD6ioMGq.99 **Link: christianpost.com/news/luis-palau-new-pope-francis-a-friend-of-evangelicals-92002/

 

[fix]

I heard it on EWTN. I believe he wrote the article in Christianity Today about the new Pope.

His name is Luis Palou and he draws thousands to his revival meetings in South America.

According to Palau the then Cardinal asked Palau to lay hands on him and pray for him.

The fiery preacher who some have called the “Latin Billy Graham,” said whenever they prayed together, Bergoglio asked him to “lay your hands on me and pray for me, that God will keep me as servant.” The new pope is respectful of all sides of Christianity, Palau said, adding the press referred to him as the “evangelical pope” in 2008.
Read more at christianpost.com/news/luis-palau-new-pope-francis-a-friend-of-evangelicals-92002/#eGM2DPjBuD6ioMGq.99 Link: christianpost.com/news/luis-palau-new-pope-francis-a-friend-of-evangelicals-92002/

I missed the part where he discourages conversion to the Church?

 

[Tobias22]

I missed the part where he discourages conversion to the Church?

No I said I get that impression from what I’ve read so far. As I wrote:

I get the sense he will be very ecumenical. Calling for an internal conversion moreso than emphasizing a formal conversion to the Catholic church. That seems to be his thoughts re: Anglicans.

 

[shelby_sun]

Its not materialistic or superficial to keep reminders around that the papacy is not about you but rather about all who came before you and all who died in the Faith. This helps the pope stay humble, because it helps him recognize that the office is not his to change, and that every decision he makes must be in continuity with all of the popes who came before him; and, will affect every Catholic who comes after him. The red shoes were put in place to help keep popes humble, not to puff them up.

It also serves as a visible reminder for the curia and others who work in the Vatican every time they see him to remember the same thing. It would do the same for us if we would only take the time to learn the meaning of our traditions before throwing them out. In 2000 years, the Church has developed some extraneous traditions to be sure, but the majority of them are there for good reason. Which is more humble, to recognize that there are good reasons for the things which were done in the past and that accepting them might cause others to think you are less humble, or getting rid of them?

Seeing as Pope Francis has only been the head of the church for several days, I think in time we will find out more his own thought and belief about the action we have seen him take. However, Yes the church has had it traditions over time but so have The Jesuits, and they keep things very simple.

The traditions are fine, the ornateness is great for some, but maybe Pope Francis is trying to take the Church back to the basics at first so that those of us that don’t know everything we should know about what the church now teaches can get a clean start and not get caught up in all the traditions, and just learn the pure truth.

Being raised in a Jesuit parish, I don’t like to attend Mass in an ornate church. I can appreciate its beauty and history, but I like to focus my attentions on the words being spoken and on the Eucharist without the gold sparkling behind the altar. Other like the ornateness as a sign to Honor God. I can only think Pope Francis is having a much harder time adjusting his new life than we are adjust to the few decisions he has made.

As Elizabeth has said, I don’t think there will be any radical changes in teaching and if not wearing the red shoes is the worst thing this pope does, we will all be very blessed to have him has our pope.

On one last note, I think people notice that when Pope Francis uses the term “poor” he doesn’t only mean the financially poor, but also the poor of faith, hope, and understanding. I am not directing this to anyone on the post, but on other post people have seemed to narrow the term to financial poor. After speaking with a Jesuit priest at work they mentioned that Pope Francis wants more understanding, more genuine caring for each other, even if we are from different back grounds, cultures or religions. We are all “poor” from time to time in one way or another.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I was referring to red shoes. I’m sure that the Holy Father is at least as much aware about the symbolism of the red shoes as are certain posters on CAF, aren’t you?

The Pope choosing to omit wearing the red shoes is in itself a form of symbolism. The Holy father is guided by the Holy Spirit, let the Holy Father choose the style of dress and behaviour that he thinks best fits with the symbolism that he feels appropriate to the direction the Holy Spirit is guiding him to lead the Church in. A simpler, less remote, less institutional Church perhaps? A poorer Church in terms of it’s material nature? Less of an institutional nature, more a communion of the faithful perhaps?

I’m sure that the Holy Father knows exactly what he’s doing in terms of the symbolism he chooses to use. Why not have some trust in his actions and accept that perhaps he knows better than we do in this regard.

I’m sorry, but the above is NOT Catholic teaching. It is, if anything, far closer to Mormonism, which believes that its President is the “prophet, seer, and revelator” for the Church. We do not believe any such thing about the Pope. We believe the CHURCH is guided by the Holy Spirit. We believe the Holy Spirit prevents the pope from teaching error to the Church when he speaks ex cathedra on a matter of faith and morals, be we do not necessarily believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Pope in all his decisions. If we did so, then Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio would be guilty before God for daring to criticize Pope Benedict’s speech at Regensburg, the one that so inflamed Moslem extremists that they torched churches and shot a nun. He criticized the Pope’s prudential wisdom in using that particular quote. In their prudential judgements, popes are as subject to error and mistep as the next person. Pope John Paul II appointed some really excellent and orthodox bishops. He also appointed some…well, one has only to read the newspapers.

 

[Tobias22]

I was referring to red shoes. I’m sure that the Holy Father is at least as much aware about the symbolism of the red shoes as are certain posters on CAF, aren’t you?

The Pope choosing to omit wearing the red shoes is in itself a form of symbolism. The Holy father is guided by the Holy Spirit, let the Holy Father choose the style of dress and behaviour that he thinks best fits with the symbolism that he feels appropriate to the direction the Holy Spirit is guiding him to lead the Church in. A simpler, less remote, less institutional Church perhaps? A poorer Church in terms of it’s material nature? Less of an institutional nature, more a communion of the faithful perhaps?

I’m sure that the Holy Father knows exactly what he’s doing in terms of the symbolism he chooses to use. Why not have some trust in his actions and accept that perhaps he knows better than we do in this regard.

I think you are correct judging from what we know of the Pope and his actions so far.

I really think he will fulfill the promise of V2.

A more horizontal and inclusive church. Less institutional. More local control and decision making. The deacon at the church nearby hopes there will be more liturgical flexibility and that the recent change in some of the words used at Mass might be made optional - one can use the older words or the new translations.

It’s clearly a de-emphasis of the monarchial church that is unfolding.

More collaborative also with the Pope allowing for common decisions between him and the cardinals/bishops.

Very exciting times ahead.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I think you are correct judging from what we know of the Pope and his actions so far.

I really think he will fulfill the promise of V2.

A more horizontal and inclusive church. Less institutional. More local control and decision making. The deacon at the church nearby hopes there will be more liturgical flexibility and that the recent change in some of the words used at Mass might be made optional - one can use the older words or the new translations.

It’s clearly a de-emphasis of the monarchial church that is unfolding.

More collaborative also with the Pope allowing for common decisions between him and the cardinals/bishops.

Very exciting times ahead.

How far do we extend “inclusive?”

I doubt we fully appreciate how much local “control” and “decision making.” There already is. Bishops fufill most of their ministry without reference to the Holy See.

And liturgical “flexibility?” We’ve had that. It’s been a nightmare. God forbid that His Church be afflicted with any more.

 

[Stephanie_Pauls]

How far do we extend “inclusive?”

I doubt we fully appreciate how much local “control” and “decision making.” There already is. Bishops fufill most of their ministry without reference to the Holy See.

And liturgical “flexibility?” We’ve had that. It’s been a nightmare. God forbid that His Church be afflicted with any more.

Amen brother. The church should be the same thoughout the world.

 

[fix]

I think you are correct judging from what we know of the Pope and his actions so far.

I really think he will fulfill the promise of V2.

A more horizontal and inclusive church. Less institutional. More local control and decision making. The deacon at the church nearby hopes there will be more liturgical flexibility and that the recent change in some of the words used at Mass might be made optional - one can use the older words or the new translations.

It’s clearly a de-emphasis of the monarchial church that is unfolding.

More collaborative also with the Pope allowing for common decisions between him and the cardinals/bishops.

Very exciting times ahead.

Uh huh. How long before the liberals turn on him?

 

[Tobias22]

How far do we extend “inclusive?”

I doubt we fully appreciate how much local “control” and “decision making.” There already is. Bishops fufill most of their ministry without reference to the Holy See.

And liturgical “flexibility?” We’ve had that. It’s been a nightmare. God forbid that His Church be afflicted with any more.

This is the first non-European Pope in 1700 years. That background may explain some of the liturgical stuff.

If you go to South America the Mass is far less formal than in the Western parts of the church. Africa even moreso - you would have a hard time sometimes even knowing it was a Mass in Africa.

So, letting alone the Eastern Rites, there is a lot of diversity in how the Mass is celebrated in the West vs other areas. The church growth is mostly in Africa and over time as the church becomes even more third world the style of the Mass for most Catholics will not be what it is now in the West.

Spanish Masses in the US are even somewhat different from the typical OF. That will increase as Hispanics become a larger share of US Catholics. The new Pope will likely provide an impetus for this.

The EF is not present much in South America and almost non-existent in Africa. Those Catholics are not attracted to it.

Soas the US Catholic church becomes more diverse there will likely be a greater diversity on how the OF is celebrated here.

The is some of the diversity I think the new Pope will encourage in the church.

Fr. Longenecker, who prefers a more traditional or formal liturgy, points this diversity out in his blog post today. He is not concerned with the simplicity and plainness of the Pope’s liturgies.

 

[Tobias22]

Uh huh. How long before the liberals turn on him?

Well right now it seems the conservative are doing more of the turning. But it is wrong to evaluate the Pope on how much liberals like or dislike him and the same with conservatives.

I think it is good though that some conservatives are worried now because of his stress on the poor and his mention of protecting the environment.

 

[DlandFan06]

I think you are correct judging from what we know of the Pope and his actions so far.

I really think he will fulfill the promise of V2.

A more horizontal and inclusive church. Less institutional. More local control and decision making. The deacon at the church nearby hopes there will be more liturgical flexibility and that the recent change in some of the words used at Mass might be made optional - one can use the older words or the new translations.

It’s clearly a de-emphasis of the monarchial church that is unfolding.

More collaborative also with the Pope allowing for common decisions between him and the cardinals/bishops.

Very exciting times ahead.

To echo the post below you, how far do we extend horizontal inclusiveness? More control and decision making? Does that mean abuses and wishy-washy liturgy? touchy feely masses? The only good thing that I can see from more local control and decision making would be that any future sex scandals could be turned overt to police instead of the hierarchy interfering. On the flip of that, there could more chances of parishes getting rid of priests because some one doesn’t like what they’re saying and complains.

What would be the point of the new liturgy if there is an option to say it that your deacon wishes?

Lastly, what do you mean by more collaboration between the Pope and Cardinals/Bishops?

 

[Lucky7]

The red shoes are not the only thing that can witness to the faith of the martyrs. I am sure that the Pope will manage to come up with another sign of that faith.

The other completely practical thing no one has mentioned is that perhaps he wear an orthodic and needs shoes with laces.

Yes, I know there are other ways. What I don’t know is why the rolling eyes icon was used in response to my thoughts/questions, etc.

 

[Lucky7]

Well right now it seems the conservative are doing more of the turning. But it is wrong to evaluate the Pope on how much liberals like or dislike him and the same with conservatives.

I think it is good though that some conservatives are worried now because of his stress on the poor and his mention of protecting the environment.

Um, I don’t think that is what the concern is over. It seems as if concern is more related to the traditions of the Church for hundreds of years. I think all Catholics agree that helping the poor is a good thing. OTOH, liberals are more likely to want to throw out traditions and render them meaningless.