Pope Francis' first moves hint at break with past

[Tobias22]

I would bet nothing major happens. With the enemies of the Church surrounding her like never before, now is not the time to enhance more lax standards in an effort to broaden appeal.

Now if the Pope thought doing something would help destroy Satan;s minions, so be it.

But you are right about trusting the Holy Spirit. if only the Catholics who opposed B16 and JPII had done the same.

The ironic thing is that so far it’s some “conservative” Catholics who are not trusting the Holy Spirit. I am really disappointed in Fr. Z and his not so subtle criticisms. Same for canonist Ed Peters. The Remnant is pretty critical but that I expected Not some of the others though.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

That could happen but if it does those folks are clinging to small ‘t’ traditions which are not Catholic dogma. Mis-understanding the nature of the church.

I doubt the SSPX was going to reunite even with B16. They rejected the best offer they probably could get. Even while building a massive seminary in Virginia to house hundreds of seminarians. Cornerstone just laid. And another seminary eventually planned for the Western US. IMO the SSPX was never really serious about this.

It is an oversimplification to consider those Traditions you cited as “t” traditions as harmless changes. There are many in the Church who are barely hanging on after the misinterpretation and false implementations “in the spirit” of V-II and it would not take much to drive them over the edge. A glance at the statistics denoting the decline in practicing Catholics since the sixties will substantiate that statement.

I would not even speculate on my action based on such wild suppositions but if those Traditions are abrogated I will likely go into a long fast and pray at least one Novena before I discerned a personal response.

 

[Tobias22]

It is an oversimplification to consider those Traditions you cited as “t” traditions as harmless changes. There are many in the Church who are barely hanging on after the misinterpretation and false implementations “in the spirit” of V-II and it would not take much to drive them over the edge. A glance at the statistics denoting the decline in practicing Catholics since the sixties will substantiate that statement.

I would not even speculate on my action based on such wild suppositions but if those Traditions are abrogated I will likely go into a long fast and pray at least one Novena before I discerned a personal response.

You either believe the gates of hell will overtake the Church and the Spirit will lead it to truth or not.

 

[einna]

Not to take away the good point you’ve made, it would seem this entire thread is more honed in on the trappings of Pope Francis choosing not to wear his “red shoes” than they should be focusing more on him being the successor of Christ and hearing his word.
I would hope good conscionable Catholics aren’t set on scurtinizing and judging our new Pope because he chose not to wear his “red shoes”. Red Shoes themselves taken in the best intentions of traditional papal symbolism don’t make a Holy Pope humble in themselves. With all due rightful charitable respect it seems some are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

In Fraternal Peace
Chris

I think you are absolutely right. People need to remember entering The Society of Jesus meant that Pope Francis had no intention of ever becoming Pope as it is discourages from “climbing” up the hierarchy of the Church. The Jesuits take their vows of poverty and humility very, very seriously, so the fact that he must live in the Vatican must be extremely difficult for him.

I think some need to respect what The Jesuits have also done to minister to others, spreading the Catholic faith around the world. No one knows if Jesus would be please, indifferent, or displease with how men in history chose to honor God with wealthy things. The Jesuits try to follow the life Jesus actually lived himself, which was an extremely modest life. It is unfair to expects Pope Francis to completely change who he is so some people will accept him. The cardinals knew what kind of man he was and what the Jesuits believe, so if they were OK with it, then why can some here not alter there focus for for the time he is Pope. I personally find it very refreshing, but I grew up with The Jesuits.
He is not committing heresy.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The Jesuits take their vows of poverty and humility very, very seriously, so the fact that he must live in the Vatican must be extremely difficult for him.

Again, it’s important to distinguish between the vows (poverty, chastity, obedience) and the virtues (e.g., humility). There is no vow of “humility.” Of course, humility is implied in obedience, and humility is essential to everyone entering religious life, or they’re in the wrong profession! Also, note that every sincere man or woman in a religious order takes his or her vows “very, very seriously.”

What impresses me about Pope Francis is not that he would take his vows any more seriously than any other member of a male order of religious, but that he takes Catholic prayer and spirituality very seriously, for the whole Church – and certainly not only for those in religious orders like himself.

(Jesuits take a 4th vow as well: obedience to Mission.)

 

[Theophorus]

I think Pope Francis will be transformational in a way a Pope hasn’t been for a long time.

That could mean looking at small ‘t’ traditions like celibacy, vestments, perhaps the all male diaconate, and changing them. But the emphasis is small ‘t’. If you trust he is guided by the Spirit then you need not fear.

Dear Tobias,

I understand what you are saying, but just to clarify, the all male ordained diaconate is a part of holy orders and as such is not a “small t tradition”, but as part of the sacrament of Holy orders, a big T Tradition. Deaconesses as they were called were never an ordained ministery but were indeed a small t tradition which originated during the times of total emersion adult baptism. While the other changes mentioned are possible I wouldn’t hold your breath on the celibacy front as even if the law were changed tomorrow it would take years to find and then train suitable married men for ordain(the Church has never married ordained men)

God bless

 

[Brendan_64]

OK, so you are continually ignoring my question and my concerns. I’m done responding to you.

I’m not ignoring your question, I am simply giving you an answer that you do not agree with.

 

[Tampa_Dave]

I just received notice of a new book coming out about Pope Francis. Barnes & Noble has it on pre-order status for $11.77 (discounted from $19.95). The book will be available on April 30, 2013. Details:

Francis: Pope of a New World
by Andrea Tornielli
Publisher: Ignatius Press
Publication date: 4/30/2013

Overview
“Francis, rebuild my Church!” That is how St. Francis of Assisi heard the call of Christ. It is also how Jorge Mario Bergoglio, at the age of 76, and a Jesuit, seems to have accepted his election to the papacy with the choice of a name that no other pope has ever chosen.

Who is Pope Francis, elected in one of the shortest conclaves in history? Who is the man chosen to be the first pope from the Americas and the first Jesuit pope?

How does he see the world and his ministry? How does he understand his call to serve Christ, his Church, and the world? In short, what is the mind and heart of this new pope of a new world–of the Americas and the rest of the world of the 21st Century?

In the words, the ideas, and the personal recollections of Pope Francis–including material up to the final hours before his election- -the most highly regarded Vatican observer on the international scene reveals the personality of this man of God, gentle and humble. The son of Italian immigrants to Argentina, he made radically following Christ and the way of non-violence the pillars of his pastoral ministry in a country, continually tormented by social and economic inequities.

This complete biography offers the keys to understanding the man who was a surprise choice, even a kind of revolutionary choice, for pope. It is the story of the humble pastor of one of the world’s largest archdioceses; a cardinal who takes the bus, talks with common folk, and lives simply. It is the story of why the cardinal electors of the Catholic Church set aside political and diplomatic calculations to elect a pope to lead the renewal and purification of the worldwide Church of our time.

“Brothers and Sisters, before the bishop blesses the people, I ask you to pray to God that he will bless your bishop.” - Pope Francis

 

[Brendan_64]

Oh. dear! So fine art and gold in the Church contradict poverty? So the sacred vessels and vestments used in worship is decadent including those trappings which point to the visible head of Christ on earth? So where exactly does that leave the Divine gift Christ left us in His humility? Do we cover it up to hide it? Do we say it is of little significance and put His Body in a plain unpainted box so as not to draw attention to IT? As angels silently adore Him in the Eucharist should we contradict their praise by not making too obvious the very object of our salvation?

What has any of this got to do with Pope Francis’s decison not to wear red shoes or the mozetta?

Nobody is suggesting that we do not treat the Eucharist with due honour, but a great many of the optional (and they are optional) trappings of the Church are merely extras and are not central to our doctrines.

The fact is that our Church is viewed as decadent, self-obsessed and corrupt by a very large percentage of people outside of our Church. This matters a great deal, and we need to be mindful of the face of our Church that is portrayed to the wider world. Pope Francis’s approach so far with less formality, a toning down of lavish symbolism, and a desire for a “poorer Church” etc. is (even now) winning friends outside of our Church. This is far more important than keeping certain optional symbols just because it amkes some of us feel good.

We are Catholics, not because of our ‘bells and smells’, but because of our beliefs, and our example to others in striving to live as Christ did.

I for one have never felt as much spiritual excitement and optimism as I do now under our new Pope Francis. This is a man chosen by the Holy Spirit to revitalise our Church, focus us on what is really important, clear out the corruption and decay within our Church, and rebuild us as a growing force for good in the world.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The man is going to wash feet this weekend. You can probably count on one hand those volunteering this weekend.

“All this can be called mere symbolism but it’s good symbolism, and good Francis knows it is needed,” wrote The Wall Street Journal’s Peggy Noonan.

 

[Brendan_64]

And he will hold Holy Thursday Mass in a prison rather than at St Peter’s Basilica or St John Lateran. That is a wonderful signal to us all.

His calls, at his inauguration Mass, for the us to reach out and protect those in prison were not just hot air from Pope Francis. This man walks the walk. He will prove to be a truly amazing Pope.

 

[Tampa_Dave]

What has any of this got to do with Pope Francis’s decison not to wear red shoes or the mozetta?

Nobody is suggesting that we do not treat the Eucharist with due honour, but a great many of the optional (and they are optional) trappings of the Church are merely extras and are not central to our doctrines.

The fact is that our Church is viewed as decadent, self-obsessed and corrupt by a very large percentage of people outside of our Church. This matters a great deal, and we need to be mindful of the face of our Church that is portrayed to the wider world. Pope Francis’s approach so far with less formality, a toning down of lavish symbolism, and a desire for a “poorer Church” etc. is (even now) winning friends outside of our Church. This is far more important than keeping certain optional symbols just because it amkes some of us feel good.

We are Catholics, not because of our ‘bells and smells’, but because of our beliefs, and our example to others in striving to live as Christ did.

I for one have never felt as much spiritual excitement and optimism as I do now under our new Pope Francis. This is a man chosen by the Holy Spirit to revitalise our Church, focus us on what is really important, clear out** the corruption and decay within our Church**, and rebuild us as a growing force for good in the world.

You paint a very miserable portrait of the Church from the perspective of outsiders. Aside from Church ineptitude involving past sexual scandals, I don’t believe a “very large percentage” of non-Catholics view us as “decadent”, “self-obsessed”, and “corrupt” for other reasons. Rather, I believe many non-Catholics recognize the wonderful things done by our Church throughout the world.

 

[Brendan_64]

You paint a very miserable portrait of the Church from the perspective of outsiders. Aside from Church ineptitude involving past sexual scandals, I don’t believe a “very large percentage” of non-Catholics view us as “decadent”, “self-obsessed”, and “corrupt” for other reasons. Rather, I believe many non-Catholics recognize the wonderful things done by our Church throughout the world.

I don’t share your optimism unfortunately. The cover-up of child abuse for decades has really damaged us (and deservedly so). I really do think we are viewed in a bad light by most outside our Church.

However I do think that Pope Francis will take this in hand, reform the Roman Curia, clear out the corruption, deal with those who have covered up and colluded, and show the world what our Church really is all about - living the the life of Jesus.

 

[Tobias22]

It seems that conservatives are frightened Pope Francis is going to carry out the V2 reforms. V2 was a Council under the Holy Spirit’s guidance. Wherever he leads the church on faith and morals he is infallible. Too many are forgetting that on the conservative side.

Like the author of this piece. It seems to many are forgetting the gates of hell not prevailing and the Spirit being with the church through time.

spectator.org/archives/2013/03/20/reading-the-papal-tea-leaves

 

[Tampa_Dave]

It seems that conservatives are frightened Pope Francis is going to carry out the V2 reforms. V2 was a Council under the Holy Spirit’s guidance. Wherever he leads the church on faith and morals he is infallible. Too many are forgetting that on the conservative side.

Like the author of this piece. It seems to many are forgetting the gates of hell not prevailing and the Spirit being with the church through time.

spectator.org/archives/2013/03/20/reading-the-papal-tea-leaves

I’m a conservative traditionalist Catholic. Vatican II reforms were often misinterpreted, thus leaving many with the impression the reforms were ‘bad’. I’m not frightened by the implementation of Vatican II to the modern day Church. My Latin Mass is alive and well, thank you, and I seriously doubt Pope Francis will do anything to eradicate it’s place in Church worship.

 

[Brendan_64]

I’m a conservative traditionalist Catholic. Vatican II reforms were often misinterpreted, thus leaving many with the impression the reforms were ‘bad’.

On that I would agree. Vatican II were truly inspired and shifted the emphasis from hierarchy to the People of God. But they reforms were much misrepresented leading to some traditionalist throwing their toys out of the pram and stomping off, while some on the other side falsely viewed the reforms as carte blanche to do whatever they wished with the liturgy. The extremes on both sides were wrong regarding this.

 

[Elizabeth502]

while some on the other side falsely viewed the reforms as carte blanche to do whatever they wished with the liturgy.

Sorry, but liturgy was a minor aspect of it, compared to the big picture. The big picture was that the false Carte Blanche has been applied to the authority of the Magisterium, to the inerrancy of established doctrine, and to the need for an authentically informed conscience. Those aspects have been far more problematic than the 4th area, which is nevertheless problematic (liturgy), as both the fruit of poor catechesis & poor application, and as a false teacher in its frequent false representation.

 

[Frank_Drebin]

You either believe the gates of hell will overtake the Church and the Spirit will lead it to truth or not.

All that means is that there will be one person left Catholic on Earth. It doesn’t mean the Church cannot be torn down or for all intesnts and purposes eliminated from society. Not that I am predicting that mind you, but Jesus’ promise does not mean the limination of pain and suffering on a global scale.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

You either believe the gates of hell will overtake the Church and the Spirit will lead it to truth or not.

Not to be a smart alec, but gates don’t move, so they can’t overtake.

This is a mini crusade for me. The passage says (paraphrase) “the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church”. This means we are attacking the gates, to hurl them down.
In other words, we are the ones on offense, not the powers of Hell.

/soapbox

 

[ATeNumquam]

I don’t share your optimism unfortunately. The cover-up of child abuse for decades has really damaged us (and deservedly so). I really do think we are viewed in a bad light by most outside our Church.

.

Oh boy, is this statement true - IMHO.

I live in a MUCH more secular country than the US, and never have I had so much flak for being Catholic as I have in the last few years. I accept that it is the lot of Christians to be persecuted for their faith, but Catholics, in my experience, get 50 times as much of it, and everyone zeroes in on the child abuse issue.

I have been heartened to see a positive view of Pope Francis in the secular press here. And yes, when the media finds out he is not going to change the things they think important, like contraception, gay marriage, women priests, then he will come in for criticism and the Church will be ridiculed once more.

But in the meantime, I am enjoying some relief!!… and I can’t overstate my hopes for what Pope Francis will do, overall, to restore some respect for the Church from those outside and inside (on the fringes)