Pope Francis' first moves hint at break with past

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Luigi_Daniele said:
The passage says (paraphrase) “the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church”. This means we are attacking the gates, to hurl them down.
In other words, we are the ones on offense, not the powers of Hell. 😉
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👍👍

Take the fight to the enemy!
 
ATeNumquam said:
Oh boy, is this statement true:(😦 - IMHO.

I live in a MUCH more secular country than the US, and never have I had so much flak for being Catholic as I have in the last few years.
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It’s the same in the UK. When people realise you’re a Catholic the responses range from ridicule (at best) to outright hostility and venomous attacks (at worst).

People really do seem to think the Catholic Church is a corrupt organisation packed full of pedophile priests 😦

We really need a Pope who will clear out corruption and deal with anyone in the Church who has been in any way involved in covering up child abuse. Cardinal Keith O’Brien was made to resign for an offence much less serious than collusion in child abuse.
 
Just on the issue of the red shoes and mozzetta.

Well, this thread has enlightened me as to what these symbolise (martydom), but I would never have guessed - pardon my ignorance.
And I would suppose that the symbolism is not only lost on non-Christians, but on many if not most in the Church.
Pope Francis certainly knew what they symbolised, and I’m surmising he weighed up the importance of continuing these traditions versus the general impression that they give of wealth and ostentation.

He didn’t refuse the pallium and the Fisherman’s ring.

And, BTW, I’ve noticed (and read) that Pope Francis walks with a slight limp. How do we know that he doesn’t need the support of laced-up shoes, or wears orthotics?

We may yet see him in a pair of red ankle boots!:). They just didn’t have any available in time, perhaps!🙂
 
latingirl said:
Every gesture, every color and piece of cloth in the Catholic faith has meaning and symbolism. These garments are part of our faith like the headscarves are a part of Muslim faith. If he didn’t want to wear it fine, but equating something as beautiful and symbolic as a papal garb to “carnival” is very disparaging. Let me give you an equivalent:, a priest goes to put on his alb and vestments and I say “no, the time for drag is over.”
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Everything can have a meaning but we gave the meaning; I mean man and not God. So we can do away with the meaning as well as the symbol, if found useful. Still I do not think this is something very important or indicative of radical change. But being poor and taking sides with the poor is indeed a great thing .
 
Brendan_64 said:
I’m not ignoring your question, I am simply giving you an answer that you do not agree with.
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Um no, you are answering the questions you wish to answer. Now you aren’t just avoiding my question , but you are now being obtuse.

You are ascribing your beliefs to the reasons why the Pope is doing away with certain traditions without any proof. You are deciding that he is doing it because they are a hindrance to the conversion of others…he is doing away with those traditions because those things are offensive to them. Is that a true statement or not?

Please answer that question. Also, you don’t seem to care that your opinion that converts must have these things done away with in order to convert is insulting to someone like myself who is a convert.
 
Lucky7 said:
Um no, you are answering the questions you wish to answer. Now you aren’t just avoiding my question , but you are now being obtuse.
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So what is the question I haven’t answered then? Find your question in one of your previous posts and quote it here, but don’t obfuscate and change the goalposts if you don’t like the answer.
Lucky7 said:
You are ascribing your beliefs to the reasons why the Pope is doing away with certain traditions without any proof. You are deciding that he is doing it because they are a hindrance to the conversion of others…he is doing away with those traditions because those things are offensive to them. Is that a true statement or not?
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You’re the one that keeps mentioning the term “offensive”, I’ve never said that.
Lucky7 said:
Also, you don’t seem to care that your opinion that converts must have these things done away with in order to convert is insulting to someone like myself who is a convert.
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My opinions are my opinions. My opinions are not out of line with Catholic teaching. Should I not hold an opinion for fear that someone might be offended by it?

If you are insulted by the fact that I think that certain optional symbols should be shelved in order to make the Church more accessible to the wider world then there’s not much I can do about that. Such symbols are not a core part of Catholic doctrine. Red capes, red shoes and various other ‘bells and smells’ are merely optional symbols that the Church can choose to use, or choose not to use, depending on the prevailing circumstances.

Our beliefs define us as who we are. We are not who we are because of the symbols that we choose to use to express our beliefs.
 
LOL…let’s try this again. Since you take issue with the part with the word “offensive”, I’ll take it out:

*You are ascribing your beliefs to the reasons why the Pope is doing away with certain traditions without any proof. **You **are deciding that he is doing it because they are a hindrance to the conversion of others…Is that a true statement or not? *

Do you (Brendan64) have proof that this is why the Pope is doing these things? Has the Pope specifically stated that he is doing away with certain traditions because it is a hindrance to conversion? And if you do not, why are you saying such things?
 
Brendan_64 said:
My opinions are my opinions. My opinions are not out of line with Catholic teaching. Should I not hold an opinion for fear that someone might be offended by it?.
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Actually, they are…and many people have shown you how they are…but once again you ignore it.
 
Lucky7 said:
Actually, they are…and many people have shown you how they are…but once again you ignore it.
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How are my views out of line with the teachings of the Church? You made the accusation, now back it up with evidence. And who are these “many people” who have shown me my views are out of line with Church teaching? Disagreeing with someone’s point of view is not the same as being out of line with Church teaching.

So go on then, tell me how exactly my views are out of line with Church teaching?

I don’t think that it is necessary for our Pope to wear red shoes or the mozetta, and you claim that this is out of line with the Church’s teaching? maybe you should write to the Holy Father and tell him he is also out of line with Church’s teaching.
 
Brendan_64 said:
How are my views out of line with the teachings of the Church? You made the accusation, now back it up with evidence. And who are these “many people” who have shown me my views are out of line with Church teaching? Disagreeing with someone’s point of view is not the same as being out of line with Church teaching.

So go on then, tell me how exactly my views are out of line with Church teaching?

I don’t think that it is necessary for our Pope to wear red shoes or the mozetta, and you claim that this is out of line with the Church’s teaching? maybe you should write to the Holy Father and tell him he is also out of line with Church’s teaching.
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I’ll search for the quotes in a couple of threads when you answer my other question directly. I’m not taking any more time with you until you do that.
 
Lucky7 said:
Do you (Brendan64) have proof that this is why the Pope is doing these things? Has the Pope specifically stated that he is doing away with certain traditions because it is a hindrance to conversion? And if you do not, why are you saying such things?
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Of course I don’t, I’ve never said I have, It’s my opinion, and I’m entitled to hold it. If you find that opinion offensive then that’s your issue, not mine.
 
Lucky7 said:
I’ll search for the quotes in a couple of threads when you answer my other question directly. I’m not taking any more time with you until you do that.
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Qutes from threads? The opinions of posters on here do not constitute the authoritative teachings of the Church. If you’re going to show that my views are out of line with the teachings of the Church then I expect you to quote me directly from Church documents, not from opinions of posters on CAF.
 
Brendan_64 said:
Qutes from threads? The opinions of posters on here do not constitute the authoritative teachings of the Church. If you’re going to show that my views are out of line with the teachings of the Church then I expect you to quote me directly from Church documents, not from opinions of posters on CAF.
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You asked me which people…that’s why I said quotes.
 
Always remember the golden rule! Never trust the media!

Although this tittle tattle is probably apochyphal, it does contain a germ of a message. Pope Benedict loved to dress up (red shoes, rich garments etc) Pope Francis likes to keep it simple( old beaten up shoes simple clothing etc) Different styles,but Chaucer once wrote that
" the habit does not make the monk" Let Pope Francis develop as pastor and shepherd, and let;s not worry about the small minded journalists,
 
Brendan_64 said:
Anyone would think that you were stalking me Elizabeth 😉
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Why wouldn’t they think the other way around? That in fact it is you who are stalking Lucky7, me, and perhaps some others, in the indefatigable attempt to shape someone else’s papacy into your own image of what you would like to be the (single) key issue (singular) in the Roman Church today.
 
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