Pope Francis' first moves hint at break with past

[RobbyS]

The media was also reporting that Pope Francis sacked Cardinal Law. Turned out that was false.

Based on that record, I wouldn’t trust it. I feel like - either purposefully or not - that the media is trying to “rupture” Pope Benedict’s pontificate from Pope Francis’s, as if Benedict was the grumpy, out-of-touch, old German.

The Press has hated Benedict forever. The progressives think of him as a turncoat, that he was one of them at the council, but then “went establishment.” It is true that 1968 was a shock to him. I mean the violence. The left go a foothold in the Church, and to them,anyone who does not fall in line totally is a “on the far right.” Unable to get at John Paul because of his immense popularity, they took aim at his “Rotweiller,” The relationship between John Paul and Benedict reminds me of that of Jefferson and Madison. They complemented one another.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The Press has hated Benedict forever. The progressives think of him as a turncoat, that he was one of them at the council, but then “went establishment.” It is true that 1968 was a shock to him. I mean the violence. The left go a foothold in the Church, and to them,anyone who does not fall in line totally is a “on the far right.” Unable to get at John Paul because of his immense popularity, they took aim at his “Rotweiller,” The relationship between John Paul and Benedict reminds me of that of Jefferson and Madison. They complemented one another.

Change news media.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Please, I would like to ask all those who have positions of responsibility in economic, political and social life, and all men and women of goodwill: let us be “protectors” of creation, protectors of God’s plan inscribed in nature, protectors of one another and of the environment. Let us not allow omens of destruction and death to accompany the advance of this world! But to be “protectors”, we also have to keep watch over ourselves! Let us not forget that hatred, envy and pride defile our lives! Being protectors, then, also means keeping watch over our emotions, over our hearts, because they are the seat of good and evil intentions: intentions that build up and tear down! We must not be afraid of goodness or even tenderness!
Here I would add one more thing: caring, protecting, demands goodness, it calls for a certain tenderness. In the Gospels, Saint Joseph appears as a strong and courageous man, a working man, yet in his heart we see great tenderness, which is not the virtue of the weak but rather a sign of strength of spirit and a capacity for concern, for compassion, for genuine openness to others, for love. We must not be afraid of goodness, of tenderness!

-Pope Francis

 

[Marie5890]

Actually, they are…and many people have shown you how they are…but once again you ignore it.

Lucky, in all honesty, and to be just to Brenden, he hasn’t said anything that it out of line with Church teaching.

I understand that the two of you hold different opinions on certain things, but to say he is out of line with Church teaching is unjust.

God Bless.

 

[Denise1957]

I don’t think that not wearing the red shoes is a problem at all. But it is a bit of a concern that our Holy Father refused the mozzetta. I don’t think that it’s imprudent to express concern about this, as long as its done in a respectful and dignified manner. I found a Catholic blog which expresses concern, in a respectful manner, about the refusal to wear the mozzetta, and there’s especially concern about what the Holy Father said when he refused it. The author says that the sources for what the Holy Father said are reliable, but he doesn’t mention what the original sources are. It’s unlikely to be a secular source, but I could be wrong. It seems a balanced analysis. I wish I knew how to cut and paste the entire article, but here it is:

thesensiblebond.blogspot.com/

 

[Marie5890]

I don’t think that not wearing the red shoes is a problem at all. But it is a bit of a concern that our Holy Father refused the mozzetta. I don’t think that it’s imprudent to express concern about this, as long as its done in a respectful and dignified manner. I found a Catholic blog which expresses concern, in a respectful manner, about the refusal to wear the mozzetta, and there’s especially concern about what the Holy Father said when he refused it. The author says that the sources for what the Holy Father said are reliable, but he doesn’t mention what the original sources are. It’s unlikely to be a secular source, but I could be wrong. It seems a balanced analysis. I wish I knew how to cut and paste the entire article, but here it is:

thesensiblebond.blogspot.com/

The “carnival” comment seems to be tracable back to this report in the BBC, but even they dont call it a “reliable source”. They just claim “it has been reported”. Which is, journalistically speaking, weak.

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21813874

I haven’t be able to trace it back any further than the BBC report. If anyone knows where they got it from, please let us know…

 

[Tigg]

thesensiblebond.blogspot.com/

Whatever else the article says, and whatever others’ opinions may be, (I do like his reference to tribal thinking) here is one portion I see no true Christian disagreeing on:

God knows what he is doing with the Church, and sometimes God only knows. I only know that whatever happens is ‘for my better grace’. I pray for the Holy Father. So should you all.

With all manner of speculation present on these threads during the conclave and the favs being touted by virtue of their winning smiles and personality, I posted, more than once, that the reform and purification of the Church may be a bumpy road, a circuitous route - one rife with suffering for those truly beholden to the Catholic faith. All of it will certainly be ‘for our better grace.’

 

[Brendan_64]

Lucky, in all honesty, and to be just to Brenden, he hasn’t said anything that it out of line with Church teaching.

I understand that the two of you hold different opinions on certain things, but to say he is out of line with Church teaching is unjust.

God Bless.

Thank you.

 

[Denise1957]

The “carnival” comment seems to be tracable back to this report in the BBC, but even they dont call it a “reliable source”. They just claim “it has been reported”. Which is, journalistically speaking, weak.

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21813874

I haven’t be able to trace it back any further than the BBC report. If anyone knows where they got it from, please let us know…

I highly doubt that the writer would consider the BBC to be a reliable source of anything Catholic. The writer lives in the UK. You could, however, ask in the comments section of the blog as to what the original source was, if you’re concerned.

 

[BackToTheRock]

Those who think or are concerned that Pope Francis is looking to depart from Pope Benedict XVI’s trajectory might want to check out John Allen’s latest post:
ncronline.org/node/48181

 

[Lucky7]

Lucky, in all honesty, and to be just to Brenden, he hasn’t said anything that it out of line with Church teaching.

I understand that the two of you hold different opinions on certain things, but to say he is out of line with Church teaching is unjust.

God Bless.

He most certainly has. On a number of occasions, which were brought to his attention by other posters (posts # 141, 161, 162, 174, 210 and 239), he has asserted that the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit (ie. free from error) in all decisions…not just faith and morals, but in political and personal decisions. Perhaps those of us who have pointed this out and have asked him to clarify have misunderstood, but I have yet to see him deny that this is what he believes to be true. Ther have been way too many comments to the effect that, because of this “fact”, that we should all agree with all of the Pope’s decisions.

 

[Brendan_64]

He most certainly has. On a number of occasions, which were brought to his attention by other posters (posts # 141, 161, 162, 174, 210 and 239), he has asserted that the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit (ie. free from error) in all decisions…not just faith and morals, but in political and personal decisions. Perhaps those of us who have pointed this out and have asked him to clarify have misunderstood, but I have yet to see him deny that this is what he believes to be true. Ther have been way too many comments to the effect that, because of this “fact”, that we should all agree with all of the Pope’s decisions.

Seriously Lucky, give it a rest will you.

I have NEVER mentioned political decisions. NEVER!

What I have written is NOT at odds with the teachings of the Church. We do not all have to think as you do in order to be in line with the teachings of our Church. Despite disagreeing with you I have never once claimed that your views are out of line with the teachings of the Church. I have NEVER claimed this. Why can you not simply accept that we have differences of opinion, but that neither of our opinions are within the boundaries of Church teaching?

Let me just say that I actually take DEEP OFFENCE at your accusation that my views are not in line with the teachings of the Church. I consider this accusation of yours to be deeply uncharitable, hurtful and unjust. I respectfully request that you withdraw that accusation.

 

[Lucky7]

Seriously Lucky, give it a rest will you.

I have NEVER mentioned political decisions. NEVER!

What I have written is NOT at odds with the teachings of the Church. We do not all have to think as you do in order to be in line with the teachings of our Church. Despite disagreeing with you I have never once claimed that your views are out of line with the teachings of the Church. I have NEVER claimed this. Why can you not simply accept that we have differences of opinion, but that neither of our opinions are within the boundaries of Church teaching?

Let me just say that I actually take DEEP OFFENCE at your accusation that my views are not in line with the teachings of the Church. I consider this accusation of yours to be deeply uncharitable, hurtful and unjust. I respectfully request that you withdraw that accusation.

Post #140:

*As followers of Christ our role is to fully support our Pope in whatever direction he leads us. If our own secular political views, or our own personal views on correct ceremony and protocol, conflict with this then we should ditch our own political or personal views and align ourselves fully with whatever direction Pope Francis is guided to take us. *

I am sorry that my point hurts you. Catholic teaching does not teach that all of the Pope’s decisions are guided by the Holy Spirit and therefore free from error. As a resutl we are not expected to agree with them all. If you can show me I’m wrong, then I will withdraw my comments. Until then, I stand by what I write.

 

[Brendan_64]

Yes, if our own political views conflict with the teachings of our Church, then yes the teachings of the Church should take precedence over our own flawed, secular, political beliefs.

The Pope speaks infallibly on matters of faith and morals, but that does not mean that the direction of his Papacy is not guided by the Holy Spirit, or that Catholic teachings that are not based on Papal infallibility are to be disregarded.

I really find it hard to understand why you cannot simply accept that I hold a difference of opinion to you, without starting to insult me and mock my faith. And all this over a pair or red shoes and a cape.

 

[Lucky7]

Yes, if our own political views conflict with the teachings of our Church, then yes the teachings of the Church should take precedence over our own flawed, secular, political beliefs.

I am also still waiting for you to retract your hurtful, uncharitable and unjust accusation that my views are not in line with the teachings of the Church.

You have still said on numerous occasions that the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit in all decisions beyond faith and morals. When you retract that, I’ll retract mine.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I have to wonder what the Pope would think of himself being used as a ‘stick’ to fight with, causing gaps as opposed to bridging them?

 

[Lucky7]

Yes, if our own political views conflict with the teachings of our Church, then yes the teachings of the Church should take precedence over our own flawed, secular, political beliefs.

The Pope speaks infallibly on matters of faith and morals, but that does not mean that the direction of his Papacy is not guided by the Holy Spirit, or that Catholic teachings that are not based on Papal infallibility are to be disregarded.

I really find it hard to understand why you cannot simply accept that I hold a difference of opinion to you, without starting to insult me and mock my faith. And all this over a pair or red shoes and a cape.

This is not about a pair of red shoes and a cape.

Other folks have said the same thing I ahve said (see the posts I have cited) …that to say that the Holy Spirit guides the Pope in all of his decision is NOT Cahtolic teaching (but you didn’t even respond to them). Popes have not always taken the Church in the direction of the Holy Spirit. We might like to think that happens all of the time, but history shows that it just isnt true.

I have NO problem with your stating your opinion on the direction the current Pope is taking (and to be honest I have not decided how I feel about things as of yet). However, that doesn’t mean you get to make a blanket statement that all papal decisions are guided by the Holy Spirit. That is not an opinion.

If I am wrong about Cahtolic teaching, then I will apologize profusely, but if I’m right, I have a duty to speak the Truth.

 

[Slowride]

Any thoughts on this? I was actually quite sad and disappointed…I felt it was rather untactile…

"Minutes after the election result was declared in the Sistine Chapel, a Vatican official called the Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions.

“No thank you, Monsignore,” Pope Francis is reported to have replied. “You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!”

m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21813874

I like it!!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This is not about a pair of red shoes and a cape.

Other folks have said the same thing I ahve said (see the posts I have cited) …that to say that the Holy Spirit guides the Pope in all of his decision is NOT Cahtolic teaching (but you didn’t even respond to them). Popes have not always taken the Church in the direction of the Holy Spirit. We might like to think that happens all of the time, but history shows that it just isnt true.

I have NO problem with your stating your opinion on the direction the current Pope is taking (and to be honest I have not decided how I feel about things as of yet). However, that doesn’t mean you get to make a blanket statement that all papal decisions are guided by the Holy Spirit. That is not an opinion.

If I am wrong about Cahtolic teaching, then I will apologize profusely, but if I’m right, I have a duty to speak the Truth.

Does the Holy Spirit lead the laity, in part or in whole, to know when the Pope is speaking on something he was not led on?

 

[Lucky7]

Does the Holy Spirit lead the laity, in part or in whole, to know when the Pope is speaking on something he was not led on?

Did the Holy Spirit lead St Catherine of Siena?