Pope Francis Hopes To Reunite With Orthodox Church, Sends Greetings To Patriarch Of Constantinople Bartholomew I

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The Orthodoxy that the Western Catholic Church follows is just as ancient as that followed in the East. The diversity of practice that exists now was around from the very beginning.
 
Misplaced_Book said:
It isn’t a question of just crankiness and a victim mentality. There are very serious differences between us, and they are not just a question of “We use Icons and a lot of Incense.”
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I agree there are real theological differences, as well as practical differences, which would need to be resolved.

But I wonder if some of the ill-feeling doesn’t reflect a wider cultural attribute; one of living deep in history. I may be wrong, but the impression I get is that among peoples of eastern Europe and of the Levant, the injustices of 500 years ago are as relevant today as they were back then. From what I have seen in news articles about conflicts in those regions, the passionate remembrance of history is not simply Orthodox, but Catholic and Muslim as well.
 
Darryl1958 said:
The Orthodoxy that the Western Catholic Church follows is just as ancient as that followed in the East. The diversity of practice that exists now was around from the very beginning.
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If that were so, there would be no schism.
 
Coatimundi said:
I agree there are real theological differences, as well as practical differences, which would need to be resolved.

But I wonder if some of the ill-feeling doesn’t reflect a wider cultural attribute; one of living deep in history. I may be wrong, but the impression I get is that among peoples of eastern Europe and of the Levant, the injustices of 500 years ago are as relevant today as they were back then. From what I have seen in news articles about conflicts in those regions, the passionate remembrance of history is not simply Orthodox, but Catholic and Muslim as well.
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There may be an element of that. I am a Hellenized American who has never lived in the Middle East as a local. I certainly don’t pretend to understand all of the cultural nuances. However, I do know that there are theological and ecclesiological issues between us, and those certainly go beyond mere political and secular squabbles and slights.
 
Misplaced_Book said:
If that were so, there would be no schism.
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It is so, and yet there is a schism. To believe otherwise is a statement of faith and opinion, rather than of fact and history.

Catholic traditions of the Roman rite are as ancient and as orthodox as any traditions.
 
Coatimundi said:
I agree there are real theological differences, as well as practical differences, which would need to be resolved.

But I wonder if some of the ill-feeling doesn’t reflect a wider cultural attribute; one of living deep in history. I may be wrong, but the impression I get is that among peoples of eastern Europe and of the Levant, the injustices of 500 years ago are as relevant today as they were back then. From what I have seen in news articles about conflicts in those regions, the passionate remembrance of history is not simply Orthodox, but Catholic and Muslim as well.
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It’s not only a matter of 500 years ago. Look up what happened in Croatia in WWII and how Serbian Orthodox were sent to the concentration camp at Jasenovac by the Ustase.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e#Connections_with_the_Catholic_Church
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Usta%C5%A1e
 
ksenja said:
This hasn’t anything to do with religion, it has everything to do with nationalism.
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You have to keep in mind that for many orthodox nationalism and religion and two sides of the same coin.
 
There is no question that there were terrible injustices done by Westerners both religious
and secular. Lord knows we in the West had our own Schism. And there is only one way
to deal with all the horrors and we all need it’ That way is the Compassionate Forgiveness of
Christ. We all need to forgive as we are forgiven.
This is not something we can do of ourselves It is God’s Work -the answer to Jesus prayer for Unity “That they may be One, Father - as You and I are One.” We need to make
that our prayer in Christ. This division has been a great scandal to the world and the best
way to heal that is to love one another with merciful compassion in such a way that all the
World will say “Look how these Christians love one another!”
 
brigantine said:
You have to keep in mind that for many orthodox nationalism and religion and two sides of the same coin.
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You may be right, however I’ve seen several disputes between Croatians and Serbians (specially in BiH) and they had very nationalistic undertones. It is possible that I am wrong, but it seemed to me that they hated each other’s religions because of their nationality and not vice versa. The problem is that both sides had committed atrocities and still now many people suffer because of them. Peace is very very fragile there and unfortunately I can’t imagine what would happen if Catholic and Orthodox Churches reunited. I don’t think any side would be happy about it to say the least.
But of course this is a very simplistic statement, it differs from person to person.

Anyway, I pray that someday the whole of Christianity reunites, just like out Lord wished.
 
ksenja said:
This hasn’t anything to do with religion, it has everything to do with nationalism.
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Nonsense. Nationalism is indeed a factor, but the shenanigans in the Balkans and Eastern Europe perpetrated by the Catholic Empires and their enablers in the Latin Church certainly had a religious element.
 
ksenja said:
This hasn’t anything to do with religion, it has everything to do with nationalism.
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If it was purely a question of nationalism, and had nothing at all to do with religion, can you explain why it was that those Serbian Orthodox who converted to Roman Catholicism in Croatia during this time of the Ustase, that they were then safe from the oppression felt by the Serbs who did not convert? The Serbs who converted to Roman Catholicism were still Serbs by nationality, were they not? Why in Croatia did the Serbian Orthodox feel hostility against them, but the Serbian Roman Catholics did not?
 
Tomdstone said:
If it was purely a question of nationalism, and had nothing at all to do with religion, can you explain why it was that those Serbian Orthodox who converted to Roman Catholicism in Croatia during this time of the Ustase, that they were then safe from the oppression felt by the Serbs who did not convert? The Serbs who converted to Roman Catholicism were still Serbs by nationality, were they not? Why in Croatia did the Serbian Orthodox feel hostility against them, but the Serbian Roman Catholics did not?
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Because “nationalism” is the wrong word. It’s has more to do with orthopraxy than orthodox (little o) beliefs.

When people confuse their religious identity for national identity (i.e. Jews and Musliums) then you get things like this.
 
phil19034 said:
Because “nationalism” is the wrong word. It’s has more to do with orthopraxy than orthodox (little o) beliefs.

When people confuse their religious identity for national identity (i.e. Jews and Musliums) then you get things like this.
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So you are saying there was no concerted effort to purge Orthodox because they are Orthodox, is that what you are saying?
 
Coatimundi said:
I agree there are real theological differences, as well as practical differences, which would need to be resolved.

But I wonder if some of the ill-feeling doesn’t reflect a wider cultural attribute; one of living deep in history. I may be wrong, but the impression I get is that among peoples of eastern Europe and of the Levant, the injustices of 500 years ago are as relevant today as they were back then. From what I have seen in news articles about conflicts in those regions, the passionate remembrance of history is not simply Orthodox, but Catholic and Muslim as well.
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Yes, we have long memories here. Unfortunately, they are selective memories, often reinforced by selective history-teaching in schools.

The Orthodox churches are often nationalistic, so that for example, the common perception of many Greeks is that if one is not Orthodox, one is not really, truly Greek.
Misplaced_Book said:
There may be an element of that. I am a Hellenized American who has never lived in the Middle East as a local. I certainly don’t pretend to understand all of the cultural nuances. However, I do know that there are theological and ecclesiological issues between us, and those certainly go beyond mere political and secular squabbles and slights.
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Many of the theological issues turn on semantics and things being lost in translation. For example, the Orthodox don’t use the word purgatory, but the essential beliefs (there is some sort of purification/transformation en route to heaven, and efficacy in prayers for the dead) are the same.
Tomdstone said:
It’s not only a matter of 500 years ago. Look up what happened in Croatia in WWII and how Serbian Orthodox were sent to the concentration camp at Jasenovac by the Ustase.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e#Connections_with_the_Catholic_Church
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Usta%C5%A1e
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Yes, but let us also remember The Katyn Massacre when the Russians killed 20,000 Catholic Poles. And The Massacre of the Latins in 1182, which wiped out Catholics from Constantinople, killing about 60,000 Catholics. The atrocity of 1204 cannot be looked at isolation as there were treacheries and atrocities by “the other side” before as well. My point is that too often people have an unbalanced view which does not lead to unity. Both sides have sinned and we need to get beyond it.
ksenja said:
This hasn’t anything to do with religion, it has everything to do with nationalism.
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Sometimes the identities are so bound up that is hard to separate them. Look at the Turkish invasion of Cyprus: it can be seen as Muslims conducting jihad against Christians, and it can be seen as Turkey acting in its geopolitical national interests against an island in an unfortunate location.
 
Tomdstone said:
It was reported that some Roman Catholic priests took part in the atrocities.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e#Connections_with_the_Catholic_Church
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If they did, than that is very unfortunate and at the end of the day, they are the ones who will have to stand in front of our Lord at the last judgment and answer for their deeds. But you have to remember that there was a terrible civil war going on in Yugoslavia during WW2, atrocities were happening on all sides. So blaming one or the other is pointless.

When I wrote that I didn’t think religion has anything to do with it I meant simply that Christ told us to love one another, he wanted us to be one. So I think many people use religion as an excuse for doing bad things but deep down they have other motives-both lay people and clerics.

I think everyone of us should make an effort and try to live the Gospel by forgetting and forgiving people who have wronged us in the past even though it easily said than done. Only than maybe in a couple of hundred years from now our descendants will be free of hate because of past crimes.

I think it was you who wrote about the Serbians who converted to RCC during WW2, so if you have any article or book to recommend about the subject I would be very grateful. 👍 Just not Wikipedia please.

Oh and by the way if somebody would be so kind to explain me how to quote multiple posts in one post I would be also very grateful, I would love to respond to all of you but I don’t have time to do it in several posts. Thanks! 🙂
 
ksenja said:
if somebody would be so kind to explain me how to quote multiple posts in one post
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To the right of the “quote” button in all posts is a mult-quote button (looks like a large " with + sign). If you click it, the image will change. After selecting all of the posts you wish to quote with the multi-post, click the “Post Reply” button – and all the posts will be there. Then you can write inbetween the quotes.
 
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