Pope Francis, Interviews, and finding Peace

[gracepoole]

And in case anyone thinks I’m exaggerating, see this, just posted:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=827742

The poll discussed in the thread you’ve linked does not indicate that Catholics believe the Church has changed its positions on fundamental issues like same-sex marriage and abortion. It is evidence that a majority of those polled agree with the Pope’s statement that the Church must not be solely focused on these issues, and it is evidence that a majority have views on these subjects that are contradictory to Church teachings. This poll is not evidence of your claim that “one heck of a lot of Catholics, as poorly catechized as they have been about Truth being absolute, do believe that Pope Francis has already changed Catholic doctrine, and will change it again, and much more.”

 

[McCall1981]

The poll discussed in the thread you’ve linked does not indicate that Catholics believe the Church has changed its positions on fundamental issues like same-sex marriage and abortion. It is evidence that a majority of those polled agree with the Pope’s statement that the Church must not be solely focused on these issues, and it is evidence that a majority have views on these subjects that are contradictory to Church teachings. This poll is not evidence of your claim that “one heck of a lot of Catholics, as poorly catechized as they have been about Truth being absolute, do believe that Pope Francis has already changed Catholic doctrine, and will change it again, and much more.”

The poll and it’s title are misleading because it says that American Catholics “agree” with Francis. What Francis said was a change in emphasis, what the American Catholics said were their views on certain moral issues. So the two are not commenting on the same thing (but the poll is presenting it as if they are) which is why it’s strange/confusing/misleading.

 

[JReducation]

The poll discussed in the thread you’ve linked does not indicate that Catholics believe the Church has changed its positions on fundamental issues like same-sex marriage and abortion. It is evidence that a majority of those polled agree with the Pope’s statement that the Church must not be solely focused on these issues, and it is evidence that a majority have views on these subjects that are contradictory to Church teachings. This poll is not evidence of your claim that “one heck of a lot of Catholics, as poorly catechized as they have been about Truth being absolute, do believe that Pope Francis has already changed Catholic doctrine, and will change it again, and much more.”

 

[benjohnson]

If I can offer my Catholic friends some words of comfort:

In urban Seattle, we have a Lutheran pastor that reminds me of Pope Francis - the phrase we use is that “he’s puts a bit of velvet over the rod.”

The rod is still there, but because the velvet hides the impact, this Pastor is able to get people to hear the proclamation of the Gospel - the alternative is preaching to a empty church.

Of course, this drives us ‘confessional Lutherans’ nuts at the outset, but once you see what’s happening over the years it begins to make sense.

I’d invite Catholics to give Pope Francis a few years before worrying - based on his tenure in South America I think even the most ‘traditional’ Catholic will be encouraged over the next few years.

If I’m wrong, feel free to blame this pesky Lutheran for getting you to put your guard down.

EDIT: I’m also reminded of the Bishop’s crosier - there’s a ‘hook’ on it for gathering wayward sheep. Using the rod end of the corsair to gather is usually not advised.

 

[JReducation]

If I can offer my Catholic friends some words of comfort:

In urban Seattle, we have a Lutheran pastor that reminds me of Pope Francis - the phrase we use is that “he’s puts a bit of velvet over the rod.”

The rod is still there, but because the velvet hides the impact, this Pastor is able to get people to hear the proclamation of the Gospel - the alternative is preaching to a empty church.

Of course, this drives us ‘confessional Lutherans’ nuts at the outset, but once you see what’s happening over the years it begins to make sense.

I’d invite Catholics to give Pope Francis a few years before worrying - based on his tenure in South America I think even the most ‘traditional’ Catholic will be encouraged over the next few years.

If I’m wrong, feel free to blame this pesky Lutheran for getting you to put your guard down.

EDIT: I’m also reminded of the Bishop’s crosier - there’s a ‘hook’ on it for gathering wayward sheep. Using the rod end of the corsair to gather is usually not advised.

 

[Elizabeth502]

So sorry Elizabeth, I will try to do better.

As will I, friend. (As need I.)

 

[McCall1981]

If I can offer my Catholic friends some words of comfort:

In urban Seattle, we have a Lutheran pastor that reminds me of Pope Francis - the phrase we use is that “he’s puts a bit of velvet over the rod.”

The rod is still there, but because the velvet hides the impact, this Pastor is able to get people to hear the proclamation of the Gospel - the alternative is preaching to a empty church.

Of course, this drives us ‘confessional Lutherans’ nuts at the outset, but once you see what’s happening over the years it begins to make sense.

I’d invite Catholics to give Pope Francis a few years before worrying - based on his tenure in South America I think even the most ‘traditional’ Catholic will be encouraged over the next few years.

If I’m wrong, feel free to blame this pesky Lutheran for getting you to put your guard down.

EDIT: I’m also reminded of the Bishop’s crosier - there’s a ‘hook’ on it for gathering wayward sheep. Using the rod end of the corsair to gather is usually not advised.

Hope you’re right. But if you’re wrong, I’ll be saving this post and I’ll see you in a couple of years, pal

 

[Elizabeth502]

The poll discussed in the thread you’ve linked does not indicate that Catholics believe the Church has changed its positions on fundamental issues like same-sex marriage and abortion.

The poll, in itself, does not. Nevertheless, such headlines over the last month, minimum, are indeed enthusiastically responded to in a way to indicate a (false) change in Church doctrine. IOW, the enthusiasm is for that “change.” The spin from Catholics is in fact evidence of my

claim that “one heck of a lot of Catholics, as poorly catechized as they have been about Truth being absolute, do believe that Pope Francis has already changed Catholic doctrine, and will change it again, and much more.”

It apparently doesn’t matter to them that they are simply wrong. They are propagandizing their fellow Catholics, and the world, with such nonsense, and they will keep doing so until they are corrected.

 

[McCall1981]

The poll, in itself, does not. Nevertheless, such headlines over the last month, minimum, are indeed enthusiastically responded to in a way to indicate a (false) change in Church doctrine. IOW, the enthusiasm is for that “change.” The spin from Catholics is in fact evidence of my

It apparently doesn’t matter to them that they are simply wrong. They are propagandizing their fellow Catholics, and the world, with such nonsense, and they will keep doing so until they are corrected.

I agree.

The poll is addressing separate issues from what Pope Francis spoke about, but is acting like they are the same. The intention is to (falsely) link the fact that American Catholics approve of gay marriage with what Francis said, in order to imply that he’s saying the same thing they are. That’s what the headlines you mentioned have been doing as well.

 

[JReducation]

If I can offer my Catholic friends some words of comfort:

In urban Seattle, we have a Lutheran pastor that reminds me of Pope Francis - the phrase we use is that “he’s puts a bit of velvet over the rod.”

The rod is still there, but because the velvet hides the impact, this Pastor is able to get people to hear the proclamation of the Gospel - the alternative is preaching to a empty church.

Of course, this drives us ‘confessional Lutherans’ nuts at the outset, but once you see what’s happening over the years it begins to make sense.

I’d invite Catholics to give Pope Francis a few years before worrying - based on his tenure in South America I think even the most ‘traditional’ Catholic will be encouraged over the next few years.

If I’m wrong, feel free to blame this pesky Lutheran for getting you to put your guard down.

EDIT: I’m also reminded of the Bishop’s crosier - there’s a ‘hook’ on it for gathering wayward sheep. Using the rod end of the corsair to gather is usually not advised.

 

[Jaberwocky]

If I can offer my Catholic friends some words of comfort:

In urban Seattle, we have a Lutheran pastor that reminds me of Pope Francis - the phrase we use is that “he’s puts a bit of velvet over the rod.”

The rod is still there, but because the velvet hides the impact, this Pastor is able to get people to hear the proclamation of the Gospel - the alternative is preaching to a empty church.

Of course, this drives us ‘confessional Lutherans’ nuts at the outset, but once you see what’s happening over the years it begins to make sense.

I’d invite Catholics to give Pope Francis a few years before worrying - based on his tenure in South America I think even the most ‘traditional’ Catholic will be encouraged over the next few years.

If I’m wrong, feel free to blame this pesky Lutheran for getting you to put your guard down.

EDIT: I’m also reminded of the Bishop’s crosier - there’s a ‘hook’ on it for gathering wayward sheep. Using the rod end of the corsair to gather is usually not advised.

Interesting insight Ben!

I just wanted to add that to understand Pope Francis as saying we use the velvet with those in the Church may not apply to Catholics in the sense of communicating morals uncompromisingly (though for dealing with those who have left and outside of it, most certainly).

The reason I think so is that we are called to definitely present the truth without compromise and I do think Pope Francis will not have it any other way. I think what he has said and done himself as well is to emphasize the need to also include the love of God when discussing morality. This is not in the sense that we must acquire a balance between the moral law and God’s love but in the sense of giving people a reason to follow these very difficult precepts. Basically, to correctly present the true relation between the two.

If one were just given the command, it can be hard to follow it. More often today, the Church is seen as an institution that invents the moral law rather than as handing down what was revealed to her by God.

Pope Francis wants to make sure that we do include the fact that God’s love is why we should be renouncing our sinful ways and worldliness (as he emphasized today). We take up our crosses and follow with peace and joy because the love of Christ urges us on.

The priest who uncompromisingly states the moral positions of the Church are therefore by no means condemned or told to tone it down by Pope Francis. He is merely asking them to make sure they give the full message.
**
(I think Brother JR can correct me on this if I am wrong, but I believe the Bishop and Pope can only reproach those under them for their homily is they teach error in it or continuously fail to catechize or communicate doctrine important to the life of the faithful. The style, emphasis, and how they communicate the teachings of the Church is left to the freedom of the Bishop or Priest.)**

 

[Elizabeth502]

I agree.

The poll is addressing separate issues from what Pope Francis spoke about, but is acting like they are the same. The intention is to (falsely) link the fact that American Catholics approve of gay marriage with what Francis said, in order to imply that he’s saying the same thing they are. That’s what the headlines you mentioned have been doing as well.

In an age of shallow and “instant” messaging, distortion is a powerful tool.

 

[McCall1981]

Interesting insight Ben!

**I just wanted to add that to understand Pope Francis as saying we use the velvet with those in the Church may not apply to Catholics in the sense of communicating morals uncompromisingly (though for dealing with those who have left and outside of it, most certainly). **
The reason I think so is that we are called to definitely present the truth without compromise and I do think Pope Francis will not have it any other way. I think what he has said and done himself as well is to emphasize the need to also include the love of God when discussing morality. This is not in the sense that we must acquire a balance between the moral law and God’s love but in the sense of giving people a reason to follow these very difficult precepts. Basically, to correctly present the true relation between the two.

If one were just given the command, it can be hard to follow it. More often today, the Church is seen as an institution that invents the moral law rather than as handing down what was revealed to her by God.

Pope Francis wants to make sure that we do include the fact that God’s love is why we should be renouncing our sinful ways and worldliness (as he emphasized today). We take up our crosses and follow with peace and joy because the love of Christ urges us on.

The priest who uncompromisingly states the moral positions of the Church are therefore by no means condemned or told to tone it down by Pope Francis. He is merely asking them to make sure they give the full message.
**
(I think Brother JR can correct me on this if I am wrong, but I believe the Bishop and Pope can only reproach those under them for their homily is they teach error in it or continuously fail to catechize or communicate doctrine important to the life of the faithful. The style, emphasis, and how they communicate the teachings of the Church is left to the freedom of the Bishop or Priest.)**

I’m not sure if I’m misunderstanding you here, but are you saying Francis is “harsher” on those in the Church, and more “lenient” with those outside the Church?

If so, I agree. I have noticed that his homilies directed at those of us who are already Catholic are often pretty harsh/critical, but his interviews and such with those outside the Church are very soft/welcoming.

This makes me think (and hope) that while he will present a soft, more lenient image to the outside world, he will still govern the Church itself with strength.

Br. Jay, I think at some point you said this kind of style is a Franciscan/Jesuit thing. Could you wiegh in on this (and correct me if I’m wrong).

 

[Jaberwocky]

I’m not sure if I’m misunderstanding you here, but are you saying Francis is “harsher” on those in the Church, and more “lenient” with those outside the Church?

If so, I agree. I have noticed that his homilies directed at those of us who are already Catholic are often pretty harsh/critical, but his interviews and such with those outside the Church are very soft/welcoming.

This makes me think (and hope) that while he will present a soft, more lenient image to the outside world, he will still govern the Church itself with strength.

Br. Jay, I think at some point you said this kind of style is a Franciscan/Jesuit thing. Could you wiegh in on this (and correct me if I’m wrong).

Yes, I think there is a dual approach for those outside and inside (which traditionally is consistent).

Even in the early Church, to take St. Paul and Corinth (taken from Chapter 5) for an example, he says

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral persons— not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since you would then need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother or sister who is sexually immoral or greedy, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber. Do not even eat with such a one. **For what have I to do with judging those outside? Is it not those who are inside that you are to judge? **God will judge those outside. ‘Drive out the wicked person from among you.’

I think Pope Francis is saying the same thing. We cannot just insist from outsiders that they follow moral commands. Roman Empire was very decadent in Christian times but we do not see any of the Apostles or Church fathers asking to condemn those things with a proclamation directed toward Roman citizens in general.

What we do see instead is a call by the leaders of the Church to go spread the good news to others so that they may come to know Christ and renounce the Godless ways. To that extent, I am pretty sure the conversations between an early Christian and a non-Christian/Pagan did not begin or end on just moral issues. It probably always went to the topic of “I renounce these things because of my love for Christ. I believe in Christ because…”.

That is something I feel has been lost with the strong emphasis on natural law arguments alone to try and salvage the rapid secularization and rise of moral relativism. It had some positives in that many people regardless of religious affiliation can get together. But it also has the core issue of not solving the root cause of problems => rejection or ignorance of Christ and his gospel.

 

[benjohnson]

I think Pope Francis is saying the same thing. We cannot just insist from outsiders that they follow moral commands. Roman Empire was very decadent in Christian times but we do not see any of the Apostles or Church fathers asking to condemn those things with a proclamation directed toward Roman citizens in general.

I agree! If you’ll tolerate my Lutheran nosiness just one more time:

This is my personal reflection on why Pope Francis drives me up the wall:

A good shepherd like Pope Francis make me uneasy in my seat - for just when I think I have God’s Law figured out and I think I’m above needing God’s Grace… Bishops like Pope Francis whack me over the head and call me to reflect on those different sins that I’ve pushed into the background.

So here’s me…

I walking along on cloud 9 thinking because I don’t fornicate and I don’t abort that I somehow must be pretty good. I have my head-held high and I’m singing the song of the Lord in my heart.

Then Pope Francis reminds me that in my happy delusion, that just walked past a beggar.

And It’s not real beggar - it’s not a kindly wrinkled widow than obviously needs help.

It’s one of those rotten beggars that chose a life of fun, and is probably now scamming the system. I look at that person, and all I feel it hatred.

Oh good grief - here I am again with another nest of sins I need to admit to God. Again. And even more appalling, I’m just like that fake beggar - just a little bit more sophisticated and ever so slightly wiser. I chose sins that I feel proud to have conquered even though it was never in my nature or nurture to commit those sins.

In short, Pope Francis reminds me that I’m nothing but a rotten angry scamming beggar before God.

I really want to change the channel and go back to the high Liturgy and sing German Hymns with great vigor - to do everything in my power not to listen.

Again, this is my personal reflection, and I’m certain you good Catholics are doing much better on your walk of faith to the Cross than I am.

 

[Jaberwocky]

I agree! If you’ll tolerate my Lutheran nosiness just one more time:

This is my personal reflection on why Pope Francis drives me up the wall:

A good shepherd like Pope Francis make me uneasy in my seat - for just when I think I have God’s Law figured out and I think I’m above needing God’s Grace… Bishops like Pope Francis whack me over the head and call me to reflect on those different sins that I’ve pushed into the background.

So here’s me…

I walking along on cloud 9 thinking because I don’t fornicate and I don’t abort that I somehow must be pretty good. I have my head-held high and I’m singing the song of the Lord in my heart.

Then Pope Francis reminds me that in my happy delusion, that just walked past a beggar.

And It’s not real beggar - it’s not a kindly wrinkled widow than obviously needs help.

It’s one of those rotten beggars that chose a life of fun, and is probably now scamming the system. I look at that person, and all I feel it hatred.

Oh good grief - here I am again with another nest of sins I need to admit to God. Again. And even more appalling, I’m just like that fake beggar - just a little bit more sophisticated and ever so slightly wiser. I chose sins that I feel proud to have conquered even though it was never in my nature or nurture to commit those sins.

In short, Pope Francis reminds me that I’m nothing but a rotten angry scamming beggar before God.

I really want to change the channel and go back to the high Liturgy and sing German Hymns with great vigor - to do everything in my power not to listen.

Again, this is my personal reflection, and I’m certain you good Catholics are doing much better on your walk of faith to the Cross than I am.

Definitely agree with you

I am not sure you caught his homily today which you can find here

news.va/en/news/pope-in-assisi-christians-must-strip-of-worldlines

His words on being worldly is something that (at least me personally) most forget. It can be unconscious at times with the whole bombardment from all directions that “you need more”, “you need to climb more” etc.

I think we are hearing most of the things we used to sometimes neglect as Catholics (and non-Catholic Christians). The sins that have become part of us and lurk in the dark corners within us.

Personally though, I am sure other Popes were just as good at talking about these things (I used to hear these sort of things in sermons from my parish priests where I lived before moving to North America). It’s just that until recently there hasn’t been a lot of media coverage both from official Church sources as well as the media. The daily homilies now tend to come out very fast and you can find them in several languages on the Vatican site. I don’t recall if that were the case before. I knew Bl. John Paul II for an example, entirely from his encyclicals, what our parish priest will tell us as something he said, and seeing him once when he visited where I lived. Now there is a lot more access even if you were not in Rome.

 

[Origen52]

Being around The Jesuits on a daily basis I am pretty sure that there will be many people, some on this site, that will never come around to embracing Pope Francis, but I find it sad that there are some trying “to survive” while he is our Pope. They are obviously not trying to see all the good and Godly things about him, which there are many.

It’s early days yet. I think as time goes by, most Catholics will come to love his holiness, I think there’s a gentle twinkle in his eyes that will eventually win everyone over.

I think there’s always an adjustment period after each new pope. Personally, I had a hard time warming up to pope John Paul. This did not stem from anything he did, I just resented how everyone was comparing him to Pope Paul and gong on about how much better JPII was. I found this hurtful, as I always felt a great affection for pope Paul and was upset by the shabby way he had been treated by secularists and Catholics. This had absolutely nothing to do with John Paul, but it still clouded my opinion of him. But I came to love him. Now whenever I go through difficult times, I go to YouTube and listen to his first homily. That strong, clear voice declaring “Do not be afraid,” has often brought me great comfort.

In the same way, I think many who today find Pope Francis difficult to embrace, will one day look on his papacy with love.

 

[TimothyH]

So would it be fair to say that you and I should be very careful in how we word these things given that there is a major problem today with people who are trying to have a spirituality separate from knowledge?

I am sure we can agree on that, right?

As they mature, many monastics all but ignore theology. They say that it gets in the way of their union with God.

This has been the case with my own interior life, albeit to a lesser extent than a pure contemplative. As I mature in the faith, theology becomes less important and prayer becomes more important. Theology and knowledge were very important and formed a foundation in my earlier years but now it is not as important as prayer, cooperating with the grace of the Holy Spirit, and the interior life.

I think that as we mature, the experience of knowing God personally and intimately takes precedence over knowing things about God. That’s just my experience.

-Tim-

 

[fred_conty]

It’s early days yet. I think as time goes by, most Catholics will come to love his holiness, I think there’s a gentle twinkle in his eyes that will eventually win everyone over.

I think there’s always an adjustment period after each new pope. Personally, I had a hard time warming up to pope John Paul. This did not stem from anything he did, I just resented how everyone was comparing him to Pope Paul and gong on about how much better JPII was. I found this hurtful, as I always felt a great affection for pope Paul and was upset by the shabby way he had been treated by secularists and Catholics. This had absolutely nothing to do with John Paul, but it still clouded my opinion of him. But I came to love him. Now whenever I go through difficult times, I go to YouTube and listen to his first homily. That strong, clear voice declaring “Do not be afraid,” has often brought me great comfort.

In the same way, I think many who today find Pope Francis difficult to embrace, will one day look on his papacy with love.

Pope Francis is a Jesuit, and they are out front leading sort of like running point. So we aren’t ready for that type of leadership. I personally shyed away from Jesuits because they are so intelligent they seem a little intolerant of those lagging behind and not getting with it.
I’m not so sure we will ever get use to him because my guess is he isn’t going to let up.

I believe he says things in a way to shake people up so they do not get lazy and lose zeal. He makes us question ourselves, sort of like a little exam of conscience.

He dosen’t explain himself publically very well, but then that is part of the plan, to drop tidbits and little morsels so we don’t stop getting humgry and looking for more.

That being said, I think he will be a great pope because of his love of the poor. Before this is all done and said, we will all be out there giving away sandwiches to those in the alleys.
He won’t stop until we do. He is like Christ, a driver, and a straight shooter. And it is his idea to make saints out of all of us whether we like or not.

Just a few thoughts

 

[JReducation]

I would like to add that if anyone wants to hear this pope’s spirituality, take the time to visit the Vatican site and read or watch his sermons in Assisi. He opens his soul and his heart. They were brief, very down to earth, and spiritually powerful. He has an incredible spiritual depth, almost childlike. Even his gestures at the graves of Francis and Clare were childlike. I don’t mean childish.