Pope Francis: Jesus does not give importance to rote observance

[Betheone]

I strongly disagree–we must obey–and fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. There is NOTHING wrong with having a healthy fear of the Lord, and there is NOTHING wrong with a Catholic desiring obedience to the Lord (and His Church) even if that obedience is driven by fear. The reason is because people who fear the Lord, also believe in the Lord–0they have faith in God, and they have faith that God alone saves their souls.

Now, certainly, if we wish to grow closer to the Lord, than stepping beyond fear and obedience will be a natural next step–yet fear and obedience born of faith is more than enough.

We follow the Commandments because God commands us to do so…whether we want to follow them is utterly beside the point. We follow them because God said so–period.

Yes. There is both fear and love of The Lord. The fear is actually born out of love, by the way. It isn’t a fear of eternal punishment by God, which is what drove the rote observing Pharisees and scribes. Rather, it is a fear of disappointing God through our immorality and bad actions. That is my understanding of “fear of The Lord”. If you love God, you fear of letting Him down.

God bless.

 

[ProVobis]

Rather, it is a fear of disappointing God through our immorality and bad actions. That is my understanding of “fear of The Lord”. If you love God, you fear of letting Him down.

I remember my mother upset with the changes going on in the 60’s would say something to the effect that when Christ comes again, He will be bringing a much bigger whip. Indeed something to be feared.

And don’t forget incurring the wrath of God, which most have conveniently forgotten.

 

[irishpatrick]

Yes. There is both fear and love of The Lord. The fear is actually born out of love, by the way. It isn’t a fear of eternal punishment by God, which is what drove the rote observing Pharisees and scribes. Rather, it is a fear of disappointing God through our immorality and bad actions. That is my understanding of “fear of The Lord”. If you love God, you fear of letting Him down.

God bless.

I do not agree. I think both apply. If one fears letting God down, that is a holy thing. If one fears God’s punishment, that too is a holy thing. It is wise to fear eternal punishment.

*Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 1:50
And his mercy is for those who fear him from generation to generation.

Philippians 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

**Acts 10:35
But in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. **

Psalm 34:9
Oh, fear the Lord, you his saints, for those who fear him have no lack!

1 Peter 1:17
And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,*

While doing everything from a point of love is the optimum situation–a great many hundreds of millions of Catholics have held faith in Christ, and they obeyed simply because they believe God expects our obedience.

Think of Catholics today–where would legal abortion be if all Catholics obeyed out of fear of the Lord?

Where would Sacramental marriage be if all Catholics obeyed out of fear of the Lord?

Where would living together, fornication, divorce, etc…be if Catholics obeyed out of fear of the Lord?

A holy fear of the Lord helps provide an enticement to obey even when we really do not want to obey–it speaks to our conscience and reminds us that God alone saves, and we must obey Him.

 

[ringil]

I strongly disagree–we must obey–and fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. There is NOTHING wrong with having a healthy fear of the Lord, and there is NOTHING wrong with a Catholic desiring obedience to the Lord (and His Church) even if that obedience is driven by fear. The reason is because people who fear the Lord, also believe in the Lord–they have faith in God, and they have faith that God alone saves their souls.

Now, certainly, if we wish to grow closer to the Lord, than stepping beyond fear and obedience will be a natural next step–yet fear and obedience born of faith is more than enough.

We follow the Commandments because God commands us to do so…whether we want to follow them is utterly beside the point. We follow them because God said so–period.

Sometimes I feel too heavy an influence from Protestant thought has been accepted by many Catholics–the entire modern mantra and desire for a “personal relationship with the Lord” is bunko in my view–I do not recall Christ/God ever telling us we have to get to personally know Him to be saved and receive eternal life. Instead, we must have faith in Him, and we must follow Him (and His Church). It all places a burden on people that most cannot ever carry: (1) They must obey; (2) They must follow Him; (3) They must develop a personal relationship with Jesus–and if any of that is missing…no Heaven…that, imo, is NOT Catholic theology and it is not Biblical.

I believe the Pope is trying to encourage us to go deeper, for our own sake of growing closer to God–because growing closer to God is a most wonderful thing. I also think the Pope is trying to tell us that our obedience must happen, but it must happen from a foundation of faith. Yet, if a Catholic works intently to follow Jesus and His Church, and if that person obeys the same–they can and will be saved if they see it to the end of their life (with or without a personal relationship with Jesus). God judges our hearts, and our actions…and if our actions are born of faith, that is a very, very good thing indeed.

You are putting up a false dichotomy here.

Many do not move past fear and obedience and yes- God will meet them their. These aspects of faith are enough for salvation- indeed they have a place in the journey of faith.

You you are quite wrong in downplaying the need for a personal relationship with God. He came to call us friends- that is part of the essence of the Incarnation. Our relationship with God is “close” and qualitatively different than the Jews.

And to look at a drive for a personal relationship as Protestant- that’s patently absurd. Have your read the tender affectionate words of the Little Flower or John of the Cross?

God wants friends who obey Him because they love Him and because they love His People- not because they are afraid of him.

Yes, fear has a place but it is a mere beginning- not an end.

 

[Tigg]

Unfortunately the true meaning of the pope’s words will be twisted to justify a greater liberty and omission to one’s duty.

Is the Rosary rote? Some will now point to this quote and say yes - it is all mechanics and repetition wiithout meaning when just the opposite should be true. Submitting one’s heart in discipline and obedience (even when it is an effort to say a daily rosary) is a condition of fidelity.

 

[ringil]

Unfortunately the true meaning of the pope’s words will be twisted to justify a greater liberty and omission to one’s duty.

Is the Rosary rote? Some will now point to this quote and say yes - it is all mechanics and repetition wiithout meaning when just the opposite should be true. Submitting one’s heart in discipline and obedience (even when it is an effort to say a daily rosary) is a condition of fidelity.

To say the Rosary because one loves God and knows how pleased He is when we seek him is what the Pope is speaking of. Francis mentions recourse to Mary in most if not all of the Homilies I have read of his.

Saying the Rosary only because one believes they are supposed to but they have no feelings behind it and it is simply an obligation to them holds some value but it is a very barren manifestation of faith. God loves us- he wants more. But there are some who cannot give more and I am sure God loves them in their faith journey as well. His love for us is not based on our love or understanding of Him.

And I don’t thing the Pope cares how his worlds may be twisted. He has bigger things to be concerned about- namely speaking the truth of the Faith.

He’s not a PR person for the Church.

 

[irishpatrick]

You are putting up a false dichotomy here.

Many do not move past fear and obedience and yes- God will meet them their. These aspects of faith are enough for salvation- indeed they have a place in the journey of faith.

You you are quite wrong in downplaying the need for a personal relationship with God. He came to call us friends- that is part of the essence of the Incarnation. Our relationship with God is “close” and qualitatively different than the Jews.

And to look at a drive for a personal relationship as Protestant- that’s patently absurd. Have your read the tender affectionate words of the Little Flower or John of the Cross?

God wants friends who obey Him because they love Him and because they love His People- not because they are afraid of him.

Yes, fear has a place but it is a mere beginning- not an end.

I remain of the mind that the “personal relationship with Jesus” mantra is based in Protestantism–we will likely disagree on that point. For a Catholic, who truly believes in the Real Presence, and in the Presence of Christ in all Sacraments, there is no greater “personal” relationship one can reach for in this life, than to receive the Lord’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity during Communion–during THAT moment we are in Communion (true and actual) with our Risen Lord, and with His Mother, and with all the Saints–we are truly and actually touching Heaven while on earth. Now, whether someone thinks of Jesus as their buddy, or their best friend, or any other such things, is beside the point. Jesus is God, we are not–every knee shall bend to HIM, not to ourselves. Fear of the Lord is a frequent theme throughout Scripture, and there is a reason for that.

I think the Christian world would do far better to have less desire for a buddy-God, and instead return to a healthy fear of the Lord, in which we know that eternal life NEVER comes from us, it is a gift from the Lord.

• Faith is a first step.
• Fearing the Lord is a second step that leads to authentic wisdom, and one should never lose that fear of the Lord.
• Loving God comes with time and with a more mature faith–and yes we are to work towards an authentic love for God, for that is also part of the Commandments. So, in no way am I saying that we should not love God.
• While we work out our faith in FEAR and trembling, it is most wise to develop a robust fear of the Lord–for in that fear we do find the wisdom to go further.

What this modern has lost is humility and fear before the Lord–as if God is some buddy down at the local pub. This, imo, leads to people justifying all manners of sin (abortion, fornication, adultery, etc.), and they do that by telling themselves that their “buddy” Jesus will understand their personal weaknesses and their “buddy” Jesus will forgive them despite them continuing in their sins. Rules do not apply to them because they are so close to Jesus that they cannot fathom that Jesus will ever judge their actions.

 

[BillyT926]

Faith, of course, is a launch point; however, I am not sure that fear and obedience (just for the sake of fear and obedience) is a bad thing. Consider the fact that God tells us that “…fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom…,” and consider the following passages that show us obedience is critical:

*Genesis 22:18
“And through your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed—all because you have obeyed me.”

Exodus 19:5
Now if you will obey me and keep my covenant, you will be my own special treasure from among all the peoples on earth; for all the earth belongs to me.

Luke 11:28
Jesus replied, “But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice.”

James 1:22–25
But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves. For if you listen to the word and don’t obey, it is like glancing at your face in a mirror. You see yourself, walk away, and forget what you look like. But if you look carefully into the perfect law that sets you free, and if you do what it says and don’t forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it.

2 John 6
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

1 John 2:3–6
And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.

Romans 5:19
For as by the one man’s [Adam’s] disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s [Christ’s] obedience the many will be made righteous.*

Nowhere in any of those passages (and there are many, many more), does it say that we must obey ONLY if we have a growing relationship with God/Christ.

Think, also, of the obedience of the Blessed Virgin Mary–where would humanity be if she had not obeyed with absolute trust?

Recall, also, that Jesus was obedient to the Father–all the way to death on the cross. Likewise, God tells us to listen to His Son. There are no modifiers, we are supposed to obey.

Finally, let us take a trip back in time about 60 years. Mass attendance, and faith in general was much higher in those days. Catholics obeyed because they knew they were supposed to obey the Church. Today we have around 26% of Catholics attending regular Sunday Mass…back then, attendance was at 74%. Many of those Catholics were reasonably simple people–they loved Jesus and they obeyed–period. Today, people are much more educated, have access to all documents they need, they “know” so much more, and yet Catholics disobey at rates never seen in the early 20th century.
**
Faith and obedience!**

How would the world look if every Catholic simply held faith in the Lord, and obeyed Him and His Church? (1.3 Billion Catholics living lives of simple uncomplicated faith, and a stout obedience to the Lord and His Church–now, that would transform the world)

Fear of angering God is fine, but it’s much less efficacious than wanting to please God and having faith in Him. Plus, it easily bleeds into scrupulosity, or Pelagianism.

Doing things out of rote, hitting your marks and believing that is good enough is potentially dangerous because it can lead to a belief that doing good works alone can save you. That’s at least a semi-Pelagian viewpoint, and is heresy.

 

[Tigg]

And I don’t thing the Pope cares how his worlds may be twisted. He has bigger things to be concerned about- namely speaking the truth of the Faith.

He’s not a PR person for the Church.

While true he most certainly is not a PR person for the Church, I highly doubt he doesn’t care if his words are intentionally twisted to accommodate one’s political or personal proclivities. He is our shepherd and by his words he intends to lead us to holiness.

 

[irishpatrick]

Fear of angering God is fine, but it’s much less efficacious than wanting to please God and having faith in Him. Plus, it easily bleeds into scrupulosity, or Pelagianism.

Doing things out of rote, hitting your marks and believing that is good enough is potentially dangerous because it can lead to a belief that doing good works alone can save you. That’s at least a semi-Pelagian viewpoint, and is heresy.

I agree; however, the Church (Jesus’ Church) sets out what an everyday Catholic needs to do in order to receive eternal life–and even if some people want to do the bare minimum, that is fine because the Church sets out the path/rules. Those people, if they do the minimum to the end of their lives, will be saved.

Taking time to go to Mass, even if it is a feeling of obligation, is a holy act.

Taking time to say a rosary…

Taking time to go to confession…

Taking time to pray for others…

All those things, and many more, are part of the “rules” the Church sets for us to receive eternal life. Nowadays, it seems that Catholics who try to follow the same things the Church sets down us, are somehow not good enough, not holy enough, not worthy of being call “Catholic” along with all the super-duper-uber Catholics who do so much more and know Jesus sooo much better. Yet, those same people are the ones in the pews, and are the ones saying the rosaries, and are the ones truly supporting their parishes–but they are no longer consider good enough because they are not chasing some mythical “personal relationship with Christ.”

 

[ringil]

I remained of the mind that the “personal relationship with Jesus” mantra is based in Protestantism–we will likely disagree on that point. For a Catholic, who truly believes in the Real Presence, and in the Presence of Christ in all Sacraments, there is no greater “personal” relationship one can reach for in this life, than to receive the Lord’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity during Communion–during THAT moment we are in Communion (true and actual) with our Risen Lord, and with His Mother, and with all the Saints–we are truly and actually touching Heaven while on earth. Now, whether someone thinks of Jesus as their buddy, or their best friend, or any other such things, is beside the point. Jesus is God, we are not–every knee shall bend to HIM, not to ourselves. Fear of the Lord is a frequent theme throughout Scripture, and there is a reason for that.

I think the Christian world would do far better to have less desire for a buddy-God, and instead return to a healthy fear of the Lord, in which we know that eternal life NEVER comes from us, it is a gift from the Lord.

• Faith is a first step.
• Fearing the Lord is a second step that leads to authentic wisdom, and one should never lose that fear of the Lord.
• Loving God comes with time and with a more mature faith–and yes we are to work towards an authentic love for God, for that is also part of the Commandments. So, in no way am I saying that we should not love God.
• While we work out our faith in FEAR and trembling, it is most wise to develop a robust fear of the Lord–for in that fear we do find the wisdom to go further.

You continue to set a false dichotomy.

I didn’t use the word “buddy” you use that to de-base the well-founded and theologically-based understanding of the need for a close, personal relationship with God.

Also you correctly state the closeness of Christ in the Eucharist, but you do not mention the closeness we “need” to feel for our brothers and sisters- which flows from the grace we receive in the sacraments. Reaching out to others is absolutely integral to our relationship with God and our place in the Church.

Even hermits celebrate Mass with religious orders.

We don’t receive graces from the Sacraments- ponder the greatness of God- and just stay with that. We are not islands on this Earth.

Also, some of us- not myself as I am caught up in fear- will, with time cease to be afraid of God. They will experience a “fear” or profound reverence and adoration of God- but will not see Him as waiting to condemn us.

Do not be afraid- JPII told us.

God came to save- to be close to us- to care for us- and He calls us to care for others as He cares for us.

But you seemed tied to the notion of a God who one SHOULD ALWAYS fear. You also bring up politics use of the term “liberal” which is just noise.

 

[Brendan]

I wonder how this is going to set in the Traditional forum?

Why would the reaction be any different than here. And I say that as a Traditional Catholic.

No Catholic believes that it is a good thing to just go through the motions.

So why even ask that question?

 

[irishpatrick]

You continue to set a false dichotomy.

I didn’t use the word “buddy” you use that to de-base the well-founded and theologically-based understanding of the need for a close, personal relationship with God.

Also you correctly state the closeness of Christ in the Eucharist, but you do not mention the closeness we “need” to feel for our brothers and sisters- which flows from the grace we receive in the sacraments. Reaching out to others is absolutely integral to our relationship with God and our place in the Church.

Even hermits celebrate Mass with religious orders.

We don’t receive graces from the Sacraments- ponder the greatness of God- and just stay with that. We are not islands on this Earth.

Also, some of us- not myself as I am caught up in fear- will, with time cease to be afraid of God. They will experience a “fear” or profound reverence and adoration of God- but will not see Him as waiting to condemn us.

Do not be afraid- JPII told us.

God came to save- to be close to us- to care for us- and He calls us to care for others as He cares for us.

I never said we should not help others–it is a Christ given mandate–it is part the rules that so many people abhor today…so the boring rule following Catholics already know they are to reach out to others, and that they are to live their Catholic faith outside of Mass…they know this, and they do that all the time while following the horrible RULES that so many think are beneath them.

We will not agree about the personal relationship stuff…we just will not. I see it far differently than you.

Why should any Catholic feel a need to go to Mass, or to go to Confession, or to say prayers, or to reach out to anyone if rules and precepts are meaningless? The rules matter, the Commandments matter, obeying God and His Church matter–they are often the pathways to salvation for a great many people.

It is little wonder that the Christian world is such a mess when we can speak so negatively about fear of the Lord, and about obedience, and about following the rules and rituals as given by the Church. This leads to people making their own rules–their own version of the faith, and their own version of God–and we see that happening all the time–and now we have 80-90% of Catholics who knowingly go against Church teachings and rules because they see no reason to worry about rules and precepts and teachings–they have no humility or fear before the Lord. Their souls would be far better served to hold a bit more fear of the Lord.

 

[ringil]

Fear of angering God is fine, but it’s much less efficacious than wanting to please God and having faith in Him. Plus, it easily bleeds into scrupulosity, or Pelagianism.

Doing things out of rote, hitting your marks and believing that is good enough is potentially dangerous because it can lead to a belief that doing good works alone can save you. That’s at least a semi-Pelagian viewpoint, and is heresy.

Your knowledge on expressing this surpasses mine.

Thanks for being so succinct and clear.

 

[irishpatrick]

Why would the reaction be any different than here. And I say that as a Traditional Catholic.

No Catholic believes that it is a good thing to just go through the motions.

So why even ask that question?

I do not believe it is the optimum situation to go through the motions–but I do believe that people who go through the motions in faith, can also be saved.

Jesus spoke so lovingly about children, and how we are better off approaching Him as a child would–and children (under ten) do not worry about relationships, instead they just plain believe and trust and follow–they have a simple loving and obeying faith that knows it must follow the rules and that it must obey.

 

[ringil]

Why would the reaction be any different than here. And I say that as a Traditional Catholic.

No Catholic believes that it is a good thing to just go through the motions.

So why even ask that question?

Good point.

THere is absolutely zero in traditional Catholic practice which precludes a close, personal, relationship with Christ.

Look at our Saints and their relationships with Him.

 

[ringil]

Wy should any Catholic feel a need to go to Mass, or to go to Confession, or to say prayers, or to reach out to anyone if rules and precepts are meaningless? The rules matter, the Commandments matter, obeying God and His Church matter–they are often the pathways to salvation for a great many people.
.

Because we love Him.

“He who loves me follows my Commandments”.

God gave us the Church- we go to Mass and to Confession because God meets us there in a most profound way.

The laws and precepts are important as the Church has been given authority by God.

The Western Church also writes them down so explicitly due to our philosophical bent. The Eastern Churches are not nearly as explicit.

Does that make the West or the East right or wrong- no- just different.

Eastern Catholic and Orthodox don’t spend the same degree of attention on the highly specific expressions we in the West do- and they are just as holy a people despite that relative “vagueness”.

 

[irishpatrick]

Good point.

THere is absolutely zero in traditional Catholic practice which precludes a close, personal, relationship with Christ.

Look at our Saints and their relationships with Him.

I agree with that.

Yet what you are missing, that I am trying to say, is there is also NOTHING saying we must have a “personal relationship” with Christ. And, imo, in a world flooded with Protestant thought, many, many Catholics now believe that developing a personal relationship with Jesus is more important than everything else (this is proved true by the numbers of Catholics who blatantly subvert Church teachings, while also thinking of themselves as “good Catholics”).

Now that we have all these people thinking a personal relationship is so important, we no longer have a healthy Church–Mass attendance has fallen from 74% 60 years ago, to 26% today–and that all happened in the “personal relationship” era. We also have witnessed our culture justify every sin under the sun, and call it fine because in their view Jesus is their best friend and a best friend will never judge them harshly.

We have moved away from “fear of the Lord” to a place in which Jesus is more friend, than God/Savior…and when people place themselves on equal footing with God, they can not fathom that their friend would ever judge them harshly. It is a near absolute perfect picture of what we see today–loss of abiding faith, loss of humility, loss of obedience to the Lord and His Church. It all stems from the switch from holding a fear of the Lord, to holding the Lord as a friend or buddy.

 

[irishpatrick]

Because we love Him.

“He who loves me follows my Commandments”.

God gave us the Church- we go to Mass and to Confession because God meets us there in a most profound way.

The laws and precepts are important as the Church has been given authority by God.

The Western Church also writes them down so explicitly due to our philosophical bent. The Eastern Churches are not nearly as explicit.

Does that make the West or the East right or wrong- no- just different.

Eastern Catholic and Orthodox don’t You ispend the same degree of attention on the highly specific expressions we in the West do- and they are just as holy a people despite that relative “vagueness”.

You missed my point (perhaps I am writing poorly). Yes, if we love God, we will do those things from a foundation of love—IF WE WANT TO DO SO. Yet, if we tend to think of Jesus as our friend (and not so much our God and Savior), then we will do whatever we please even though we still love Him. And, we will assume that we can do whatever we want because our friend will not mind, because after all, He is our friend and buddy.

It used to be: My Lord, my Savior, my God.

Today it is: My best friend.

There is a huge problem with that.

One could argue that it should be: My Lord, my Savior, my God, my best friend–yet, in truth, people pursue the friend part more than anything else because they are now convinced that having a personal relationship is what saves a person. Again, look around, the proof of what I am saying is everywhere.

We should go to Mass, and to Confession, and do all the other things, for one simple reason: because God, through His Church, tells us to do so. Period.

 

[ringil]

I agree with that.

Yet what you are missing, that I am trying to say, is there is also NOTHING saying we must have a “personal relationship” with Christ. And, imo, in a world flooded with Protestant thought, many, many Catholics now believe that developing a personal relationship with Jesus is more important than everything else (this is proved true by the numbers of Catholics who blatantly subvert Church teachings, while also thinking of themselves as “good Catholics”).

Now that we have all these people thinking a personal relationship is so important, we no longer have a health Church–Mass attendance has fallen from 74% 60 years ago, to 26% today–and that all happened in the “personal relationship” era.

We have moved away from “fear of the Lord” to a place in which Jesus is more friend, than God/Savior…and when people place themselves on equal footing with God, they can not fathom that their friend would ever judge them harshly. It is a near absolute perfect picture of what we see today–loss of abiding faith, loss of humility, loss of obedience to the Lord and His Church. It all stems from the switch from holding a fear of the Lord, to holding the Lord as a friend or buddy.

If people practice as you say- I try to pay attention more to myself BTW’- but if they do practice in that way- they are not showing themselves to be good friends with Jesus.

And again it’s not Protestant.

Maybe you are thinking of the more shallow way Evangelicals express their faith- like in their hyper emotionality and “bells and whistles”. They don’t express a mature relationship with Christ because they don;t have much theology or history to work with.