Pope Francis: many young people in the Church have fallen into the ‘temptation of rigidity’

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abucs said:
No rigid is both an adjective and an adverb, it is not a noun.

It’s use depends very much on the noun or verb it is attached to.

You cannot think of the word in one narrow sense and then insist that others use it only with this narrow meaning to the extreme of almost using it as a noun.

My examples stand.

Jesus rigidly followed the will of the Father.
A father rigidly gets up at the crack of dawn to create wealth for his family.
A priest rigidly adheres to his vows of chastity and poverty.
A husband rigidly respects his wedding vows.
An employer rigidly follows safety protocols for his workers.
A fireman rigidly ensures the fire engine is well maintained and stocked.
A judge rigidly ensures justice is done.
An accountant rigidly calculates the correct tax.
An auditor rigidly checks that the correct tax has been paid.
A blackjack dealer rigidly sticks to the casino’s policy of playing as the house.
A driver rigidly stays on the right (correct) side of the road.

The word here is being used as an adverb. It depends very much on the verb it is describing. It is the verb that can be either good or bad which then can change the morality of the adverb.

You can be rigid in advocating for certain categories of freedom just as you can be free in choosing to be rigid in certain aspects.

Rigidity and freedom are not opposites. They can both be present and complimentary depending on the context of what is being described.
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I think the only that has been proved here is your unwillingness to allow yourself to be open enough to learning. Thus, providing an example of rigidity.

To contradict the Pope, when plenty of reasons have been given as to why your thinking is not in line with how the term was meant, is lacking in charity.

Furthermore, to use the word rigid when referencing Jesus, is offensive, even it you don’t intend it to be.

The Scribes and Pharisees were rigid, not Jesus.

When the Pope speaks, we are to search ourselves and our lives, to see what it is that the Pope is referring to, and not to stubbornly oppose that which is offered to us as a gift of reflection.
 
I am not entirely sure what the Holy Father was saying. However, one thing strikes when I consider the word, “rigid.” In the 1940s and 50s, Mass attendance rates were around 74%, today they are around 24%. Perhaps, at least regarding doing the things the Church mandates, a little more rigidity might be in order?
 
Don_Ruggero said:
This is like the talk of a conspiracy theorist.
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The Holy Father has been a bishop for 25 years. A priest for just shy of 45 years.

He well understands, from his own experiences, what these people are…he is not being led nor has he been.

Those of us of that generation do not need anyone to “advise” us on these matters. We have our own lived experiences. I know what I need to know about the vetus ordo adherents from years of experience…since the catastrophe of Lefebvre from the moment his mandate as superior general of his congregation was brought to an end after the Council – and all that ensued after that and were the most despicable affronts against two Saints of God who were among God’s most exceptional gifts to the Church…and the matter has simply continued. Those who have followed it through the decades down to the present moment well know.
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He is 80 years old…can you possibly think that in his decades of priesthood, he has not worked with young people, in Argentina and in Latin America, but instead now is going to learn something he did not apprehend in all these decades? His pastoral work was unmediated by advisers…his experiences are first hand

Actually, we have a Pope today who has more hands-on pastoral experience than any Pope in 100 years.

The Neo-Catechumenal are rightly welcomed for they are a wonderful new ecclesial movement. They are a wonderful resource for the young people, they are a delight to work with as a priest and a gift to the laity…and they have always been welcomed wherever I had occasion to receive them. But movements associated with the vetus ordo? Most assuredly not.
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Good afternoon Father, and a pleasant evening to you. I appreciate your insight and thank you for response.

I think we are ‘talking past each other somehow’ as truly, you seem to have taken many things from my post that I did not think I was saying at all. That no doubt is more my fault than yours in that I must have communicated most clumsily that I both support and appreciate Pope Francis, that I think that well-intentioned people everywhere might, just might, have gotten ideas that might, just might, be honestly, honorably, and lovingly mistaken when it comes to ‘those people’ who happen, among many other Catholic practices which are solidly accepted and supported by ‘modern teaching’, to like a rite of the Church, and that these ‘Vetus Ordo’ people might, just might, due to circumstances which in no way impugn or imply fault or wrongdoing to anybody at all, have been, as a group, given a label which is not quite accurate and will, in time, will be shown, most likely by Pope Francis himself, to be people who are just as valued, and ‘unrigid’, and ‘Catholic’ as many other groups within the Church.
 
friardchips said:
I think the only that has been proved here is your unwillingness to allow yourself to be open enough to learning. Thus, providing an example of rigidity.
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The problem you have with only seeing the word as a negative is that your words could easily apply to yourself in ‘your unwillingness to allow yourself to be open to learning’.

Among other things I am a teacher and my recent post investigates the grammatical use of the word ‘rigid’. I gave many examples that you did not comment on. Being open to new learning is a big part of what I do each day.
friardchips said:
To contradict the Pope, when plenty of reasons have been given as to why your thinking is not in line with how the term was meant, is lacking in charity
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We are discussing the grammatical use of the word ‘rigid’, its suitability in English and questioning whether it can be considered a coherent translation into English.

Please don’t turn this into a ‘you are attacking the pope’ discussion. That is an emotional reaction which shuts down discussion and tries to shame the opponent. I believe Catholic thought teaches us to rise above this.
friardchips said:
Furthermore, to use the word rigid when referencing Jesus, is offensive, even it you don’t intend it to be.
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It is only offensive if you start with the thinking that the word is a pejorative noun without considering what aspects it is describing.

Again please don’t take the discussion backwards with the ‘I am offended’ line. We are both better than that.
friardchips said:
The Scribes and Pharisees were rigid, not Jesus.
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Again they can both be rigid in different ways depending on what is being described. The Pharisees could be rigid in demanding respect and deference from Jesus and He could be rigid in His resisting of them to announce the word of God.
friardchips said:
When the Pope speaks, we are to search ourselves and our lives, to see what it is that the Pope is referring to … .
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Yes I agree with you.
friardchips said:
… and not to stubbornly oppose that which is offered to us as a gift of reflection.
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We are reflecting Friar, including reflecting on the suitability and validity of words spoken in one language by our Holy Father and then translated to English.

God bless.
 
abucs said:
The problem you have with only seeing the word as a negative is that your words could easily apply to yourself in ‘your unwillingness to allow yourself to be open to learning’.

Among other things I am a teacher and my recent post investigates the grammatical use of the word ‘rigid’. I gave many examples that you did not comment on. Being open to new learning is a big part of what I do each day.

We are discussing the grammatical use of the word ‘rigid’, its suitability in English and questioning whether it can be considered a coherent translation into English.

Please don’t turn this into a ‘you are attacking the pope’ discussion. That is an emotional reaction which shuts down discussion and tries to shame the opponent. I believe Catholic thought teaches us to rise above this.

It is only offensive if you start with the thinking that the word is a pejorative noun without considering what aspects it is describing.

Again please don’t take the discussion backwards with the ‘I am offended’ line. We are both better than that.

Again they can both be rigid in different ways depending on what is being described. The Pharisees could be rigid in demanding respect and deference from Jesus and He could be rigid in His resisting of them to announce the word of God.

Yes I agree with you.

We are reflecting Friar, including reflecting on the suitability and validity of words spoken in one language by our Holy Father and then translated to English.

God bless.
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friardchips. (I corrected you on this already).

This might help: en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/rigid

I believe you to be incorrect and have stated why.

Feel free to carry on arguing the point with others if you wish.

I remain firm in my belief.

en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/firm
 
Randolph said:
JPUSC… Thank you for posting the articles. How the Church misses the service and contribution of Pope Benedict XVI? The Tridentine Mass, as is with the Novus Ordo, has its rightful place and its own dignity in the Church.
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You are very welcome! 😃
 
Well Friar it appears that you are not adaptable in outlook, belief, or response regarding my explanations and examples.

Or are you?
 
sighs Y’know, every time Francis makes one of his speeches, I become more convinced that the type of Christianity he believes in and the one I believe in are quite radically different. I guess I’m just to rigid to see it. :rolleyes:
 
peter26 said:
sighs Y’know, every time Francis makes one of his speeches, I become more convinced that the type of Christianity he believes in and the one I believe in are quite radically different. I guess I’m just to rigid to see it. :rolleyes:
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It has been a mixed bag for me. Many of Pope Francis’s sermons and speeches were quite uplifting and inspirational. On the other hand, with humility and charity, I am puzzled by many things he said and did (and I don’t want to get into them now). Perhaps, I had been spoiled by Pope St. John Paul and Pope Benedict XVI.

Having said all those, Pope Francis is our Holy father, and is therefore deserving of our love, patience, support, obedience and prayers.
 
JPUSC said:
My, how things have changed in five years.
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Francis was not criticizing everyone who prefers the old Latin mass, but some people he had met. He said, “Sometimes I found myself confronted with a very strict person, with an attitude of rigidity.”
 
Young people should listen to their elders in the Church and do as they’re told.
 
The Pope is a human being. He grew up in a specific political and cultural context, and has a bias like everyone else. Bias is not a bad thing, it just is.

That place was South America. Right? That culture has had it’s own challenges and ways of expressing itself. If you come through life dealing with certain things in the lives of your people, you are formed to speak about those things in a certain way.

what’s the big deal
 
What I am wondering is, if I reject Satan, and all his works, and all his empty promises, am I going to be accused of being “too rigid”?
 
what’s the big deal
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Imagine you are a traditionalist for a moment. And are on the end of these constant attacks coming from the man who is suppose to be figure of unity. It seems every week these bitter attacks are coming on anyone with traditional views on how we are “rigid” and even worse things. Its divisive and makes those of us of a traditional disposition feel marginalised and unwelcome. That’s the big deal.
 
peter26 said:
Imagine you are a traditionalist for a moment. And are on the end of these constant attacks coming from the man who is suppose to be figure of unity. It seems every week these bitter attacks are coming on anyone with traditional views on how we are “rigid” and even worse things. Its divisive and makes those of us of a traditional disposition feel marginalised and unwelcome. That’s the big deal.
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May God have mercy on the Church… False mercy and false love will only bring dispair. I pray for continued hope, faith and steadfastness for catholic faithful.
 
I am not so sure what to think of the Holy Father’s words. I must say this I did have an experience with Latin Mass Catholics that I found incredibly troubling. A friend wanted a speaker to talk about the Latin Mass. Now I thought it would be all about the coolness of the Latin Mass and the different meanings. I was so excited and looking forward to it

Instead the presentation was all about how Novus Ordo was inferior not invalid but inferior. Now don’t get me wrong at times I am annoyed by the bad music etc and I miss beauty but there are so many benefits to having the Mass in one’s own language. He said that with the Novus Ordo you don’t see that it’s about the Eucharist. But all I could say is not true. I remember attending Mass as Protestant seminary student and crying as I was hearing the words of the Mass. And realizing that the Catholic Mass the focus was on the Cross! And it is was the Gospel clear as day! And I sang the words for days. I would not have been able to do so if I attended the old Mass. I attended one once and could not understand what was being said and gave up trying to follow the Missle. Of course there are amazing aspects to the older Mass.

I felt that how presentation was really an attack on the Mass and on the concept of the Holy Spirit guiding the Church.

And my understanding is I am not the only one who has experienced that.

The sad thing is when I did attend the Latin Mass I was so upset that I almost went in defensive.

I had an experience with Charismatics that was similar too. Same everyone should do things my way agree with us… It’s really dangerous stuff.
 
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