Pope Francis names four great Americans

[exnihilo]

On the basis that most Americans, and apparently the Holy Father, do not share your summary of Lincoln. The bottom line is, he freed the slaves, and ultimately kept our United States together, the same United States our Holy Father addressed yesterday.

Man being fallen our records are certainly mixed. But there is a lot of serious evil on Lincoln’s side. Preventing political independence doesn’t seem like a good thing by most men’s standards today, and strangely it is at odds with the very foundation of America. As for the slaves he freed them as an act of war. But he only freed slaves in territory he didn’t control. The slaves in territory he did control were left in bondage until the 13th amendment. It’s really a joke to say he freed slaves. It would be like praising me for ending abortion if today I declared it illegal.

 

[philipl]

You’re asking the wrong Catholic about Che, Fidel and Ho Chi Min. I am repelled by those guys.

The fact that the three great men you suggested as alternatives for the pope - Washington, Jefferson, and Taylor - were all also slave owners would likely exclude them from the holy Father’s list, given his present concern for the plight of those still enslaved one way or another around the world today. Talk about an authoritarian institution!

You seem to be very concerned about state’s rights and promoting libertarian concerns, which I guess is why you keep bringing up authoritarian government. I would respond that we all live under some form of under authority, and here in America we are especially blessed with the ability to elect our leaders. I can appreciate your passion for promoting issues you feel strongly about, but the fact remains that Pope Francis chose Lincoln, King, Merton and Day for our consideration.

Linclon was an awful leader. King was an awful man. Day was a full blown communist.

 

[christofirst]

Linclon was an awful leader. King was an awful man. Day was a full blown communist.

What, nothing disparaging to say about Merton? I’m sorry the pope’s choices raised such vitriol in you, but I’m certainly not sorry he chose them. I guess we should agree to disagree over this.

 

[EIF5A]

I’ve only heard about Thomas Merton, but certain Catholics have mentioned that he may have espoused questionable eastern/Asian philosophy.

Is that true?

 

[christofirst]

I’ve only heard about Thomas Merton, but certain Catholics have mentioned that he may have espoused questionable eastern/Asian philosophy.

Is that true?

He had an ongoing interest in Eastern religions, particularly Zen Buddhism as he got older, but to use the word “espoused” might suggest more than an interest. He remained a faithful Catholic and member of his religious order ( the Trappists, or Cistercians of the Strict Observance) until his accidental death at age 53. He is buried at the Abbey of Gethsemani in Kentucky with his brother monks.

 

[AClaire11]

Linclon was an awful leader. King was an awful man. Day was a full blown communist.

Agreed, this list is very bizarre to me. My whole family was very annoyed by the Lincoln praise, in particular.

 

[canis73]

Agreed, this list is very bizarre to me. My whole family was very annoyed by the Lincoln praise, in particular.

Think of those 4 names as symbols. What they represent for most people. My take is he was praising those virtues people usually associate with them, whether they actually had them or not.

 

[Paganus]

The big monuments to individuals in Washington, DC are dedicated to Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. Washington’s monument is heavily associated with Freemasonry. Jefferson’s Bible excluded all of the miracles. Both men were slave masters. Lincoln and MLK were the safe choices.

Dorothy Day and Thomas Merton? Are there any American Catholics more popular with the Left? Safe choices.

 

[ringil]

Agreed, this list is very bizarre to me. My whole family was very annoyed by the Lincoln praise, in particular.

Does your family refer to “The War of Northern Aggression”?

I’m from the South. I know the drill. . . . I don’t swallow it though.

 

[AClaire11]

Does your family refer to “The War of Northern Aggression”?

I’m from the South. I know the drill. . . . I don’t swallow it though.

Everyone in my family calls it the Civil War, actually. Nice attempt at discrediting their opinions, though. Someone who is constantly “reaching out to the common people” should know better than to elevate a controversial figure, especially in the geographical region where the controversy lies. I wouldn’t go to Ireland and mention controversial figures from The Troubles as the best Irishmen Ireland has to offer during a speech meant to reach out to all Irish people.

 

[larsont7]

Linclon was an awful leader. King was an awful man. Day was a full blown communist.

I’m glad I’m not the only one questioning the four choices of our Holy Father, especially when we have so many other great Catholic examples to choose from - Fr. McGivney (founder of Knights of Columbus), Fr. Flanagan (Boys Town), St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, Bishop Fulton Sheen, etc.

You did, however, mistakenly leave Thomas Merton off your list, whose later books need to be read with caution due to the eastern religious themes throughout. Catholic.com even has a page devoted to Merton that is worth a read - catholic.com/magazine/articles/can-you-trust-thomas-merton

The one word I have after hearing the Pope’s address to Congress - disappointing. It sounded more like a State of the Union address or campaign speech than anything Catholic, and though it was a secular event, it still saddens me.

Praying for Pope Francis and all of our hierarchy.

 

[christofirst]

I’m glad I’m not the only one questioning the four choices of our Holy Father, especially when we have so many other great Catholic examples to choose from - Fr. McGivney (founder of Knights of Columbus), Fr. Flanagan (Boys Town), St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, Bishop Fulton Sheen, etc.

You did, however, mistakenly leave Thomas Merton off your list, whose later books need to be read with caution due to the eastern religious themes throughout. Catholic.com even has a page devoted to Merton that is worth a read - catholic.com/magazine/articles/can-you-trust-thomas-merton

The one word I have after hearing the Pope’s address to Congress - disappointing. It sounded more like a State of the Union address or campaign speech than anything Catholic, and though it was a secular event, it still saddens me.

Praying for Pope Francis and all of our hierarchy.

Those four you mentioned would have been great choices. They all did so much good.

What did you think of the Pope’s homily at the Mass at Madison Square Garden? (if you heard or read it, that is). It seems that many were hoping that the Holy Father would use his talks at congress and the UN to scold them and preach a fiery homily, but that is not his style. That is why he is so attractive to so many of us. But his homily at the Mass had many more direct references to God, Our Lord, and the tenets of our faith. And surely the Pope knows that huge numbers of people, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, would hear these words as well. But I’m guessing there still might not have been enough fire and brimstone to satisfy everyone. What do you think?

Our Holy Father presented Lincoln, King, Merton and Day without all of the caveats you and others bring up. He did not say, “Look to these great Americans as role models, but be sure to ignore or reject these unsavory aspects of their lives.” He presented them to us as whole people, warts and all, who in the end accomplished much more good than whatever flaws or apparent limitations they had. I see that as a message of hope for all of us. I agree we can and should look at their lives with discernment, but to outright reject any of them after Pope Francis has presented them to us might indicate too much pride and hardness of heart on our part.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

FYI, All of Thomas Merton’s books, except Zen and “The Birds of Appetite,” received the Imprimatur. His works are sound and approved by the Church.

The Birds of Appetite, Merton merely looks at Zen and compares the teachings to that of the Church. Its a great read.

Also, Thomas Merton like other monks in contemplative orders in the 60’s and 70’s, were responding to Pope Paul VI’s request for them to start dialoging with leaders of Eastern Religions, in order to understand why young Catholics were leaving the Church for Eastern Religions. This is what lead Thomas Merton to study Eastern Religions and write on them.

He never lost his faith nor left his religious order of the Trappists.

DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

Jim

 

[christofirst]

FYI, All of Thomas Merton’s books, except Zen and “The Birds of Appetite,” received the Imprimatur. His works are sound and approved by the Church.

The Birds of Appetite, Merton merely looks at Zen and compares the teachings to that of the Church. Its a great read.

Also, Thomas Merton like other monks in contemplative orders in the 60’s and 70’s, were responding to Pope Paul VI’s request for them to start dialoging with leaders of Eastern Religions, in order to understand why young Catholics were leaving the Church for Eastern Religions. This is what lead Thomas Merton to study Eastern Religions and write on them.

He never lost his faith nor left his religious order of the Trappists.

Jim

Thank you for a strong defense of Merton.

I only hope that since Pope Francis has now singled out and recommended Merton from all of those he could have chosen, that more people will now come to know about him and read his works.

Those of us who already know about Merton seem to already have our minds made up, as evidenced in this thread and others, but I hope that with the Holy Father’s good words some who have negatively judged him will now reconsider.

 

[Inisfallen]

But I do want to know, why are so many progressive catholics desiring to live under an authoritarian government? They admire men like che guevara, fidel, ho chi minh? These men were murdering thugs and yet many progressive catholics were and are drawn to them.

Yet the men that founded this country as despised by progressive catholic. The very men that created a country that allowed for religious freedom are hated by many catholic.

I think you’d probably call me a “progressive Catholic.” And you’d say the same about most of the devout Catholics I know, and those to whom I’m related. My parents, who raised me as a Catholic, were “progressive Catholics.”

And none of those people have ever expressed admiration for Fidel Castro, or Che Guevara, or Ho Chi Minh. In fact, I’ve never heard anyone express admiration for any of those men.

Nor do any of these “progressive Catholics” wish to live under an authoritarian government. Quite the opposite.

Who are these progressive Catholics you hear expressing admiration for Fidel Castro, or Che Guevara, or Ho Chi Minh? Who are these progressive Catholics you hear expressing their desire to live under an authoritarian government?

I really think you’re meeting the wrong people. Doesn’t sound like they’re “progressive Catholics” to me. Maybe you should try to meet some other progressive Catholics?

 

[Inisfallen]

Linclon was an awful leader. King was an awful man. Day was a full blown communist.

Day was indeed a small-c communist in her youth, although always a pacifist, and never held a party card. She would have been expelled if she did – her opposition to violence in any form kept her from supporting the October Revolution. But ultimately, while (if I remember right) still in her twenties, she came to Catholicism, and never left.

I think Day’s example is spectacular, and it was wonderful that the Pope spoke of her in his remarks to Congress. Who better to show us that God’s forgiveness is always available to us? Is that not an incredibly important message?

As to King, he certainly had his personal failings. Don’t we all? But his commitment to, and courage in, an undeniably just cause, made this nation a better place. Who would argue with what he sought? Again, he is a great example for us.

 

[PPeterson]

Everyone in my family calls it the Civil War, actually. Nice attempt at discrediting their opinions, though. Someone who is constantly “reaching out to the common people” should know better than to elevate a controversial figure, especially in the geographical region where the controversy lies. I wouldn’t go to Ireland and mention controversial figures from The Troubles as the best Irishmen Ireland has to offer during a speech meant to reach out to all Irish people.

Please. The Troubles are recent events that effected people alive today. The civil war happened 150 years ago. Choosing to get all hurt by positive references to Lincoln is pathetic. As is pretending the war wasn’t caused by a southern effort to expand slavery and gain abhorrent concessions from the north like cooperation in re-enslaving human beings who had escaped to freedom.

 

[exnihilo]

Please. The Troubles are recent events that effected people alive today. The civil war happened 150 years ago. Choosing to get all hurt by positive references to Lincoln is pathetic. As is pretending the war wasn’t caused by a southern effort to expand slavery and gain abhorrent concessions from the north like cooperation in re-enslaving human beings who had escaped to freedom.

I disagree with your claim as to the cause of the war. But not just as a matter of reading history differently but a simple point of logic. If the southern states had wanted to expand slavery then it makes no sense to secede from the Union. Also, when the states seceded no northern state would thereafter have to return any slave.

The war may have happened 150 years ago but we are still paying a price for it. Not the least of which is constantly being told where I come from is a backward, racist place populated by hicks. It gets tiresome.

 

[PPeterson]

I disagree with your claim as to the cause of the war. But not just as a matter of reading history differently but a simple point of logic. If the southern states had wanted to expand slavery then it makes no sense to secede from the Union. Also, when the states seceded no northern state would thereafter have to return any slave.

The war may have happened 150 years ago but we are still paying a price for it. Not the least of which is constantly being told where I come from is a backward, racist place populated by hicks. It gets tiresome.

It might help then to read history instead of relying on logic. Unfortunately many things that people did in the past were illogical and against their own best interest. What the historical record shows is that the southern attitude toward slavery had changed from the time of Jefferson (I.e. We all know it’s evil but can’t think of a practical way to end it) to a depraved view of slavery as positive. Pro slavery elements were attempting to upset the status quo by introducing slavery into the new territories, and had gained new concessions regarding fugitive slaves. When these efforts didn’t go over with their northern countrymen they started a war to continue and promote slavery. That’s unfortunately what happened, as illogical as it may seem.

I don’t think that the actions of southern politicians 150 years ago says anything about you or where you are from today. However, if you are interested in aligning yourself with an aggressively pro slavery secession movement 150 years later that would be a little puzzling.

 

[philipl]

What, nothing disparaging to say about Merton? I’m sorry the pope’s choices raised such vitriol in you, but I’m certainly not sorry he chose them. I guess we should agree to disagree over this.

linclon is documented to be a racist. King had a problem keeping his pants on around other women that were not his wife and Day was an admitted communist.