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philipl
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linclon is documented to be a racist. King had a problem keeping his pants on around other women that were not his wife and Day was an admitted communist. How is that vitriol?
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christofirst
Guest
Your comments are so blunt as to appear vitriolic - harsh criticism. If I may offer this observation, the problem is where you stop in your assessment of each person the pope has set forth for us.
Lincoln, whatever his personal feelings may or may not have been, ultimately freed the slaves. You stop by saying he was a racist, but he issued the Emancipation Proclamation.
MLK, whatever personal infidelities there may have been in his marriage, spearheaded the Civil Rights Movement. He was the right man at the right time, and so his legacy transcends any personal foibles between him and his wife.
Dorothy Day was at one time associated with the Communist Party, this is true. The problem is, you stop there. The last 50 years of her life, she was a devout Catholic and advocated something closer to Distributism, which is based on Catholic social teaching.
Each story is a story of redemption. The themes of mercy and forgiveness, and making much good come from that, run through each of their lives.
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rfb7178
Guest
Sorry for my rant but but here’s what I think…None of the 4 named by the pope would be of any importance at all without George Washington, James Madison or Thomas Jefferson and dozens more (nearly all protestant) from their generation who created the greatest system for individual liberty, prosperity and charity. I agree with Lincoln. He saved their system for us and extended it to others.
Now for a brutally honest and introspective analysis of our pope and our church…
“Dorothy Day” was a radical socialist which is why our current socialist pope named her. Francis is a South American Jesuit (i.e. a liberation theologist) whose government-centered, forced wealth re-distribution ideas are dangerously naive and anathema to the teachings of John Paul II who declared such ideology as intrinsically evil. No more Jesuit or socialist popes, PLEASE. Wake up Catholics! This Pope is a dangerous ignoramus (or worse): ignorant of economics and history; the ultimate “useful idiot.” The atheist media “loves” him for his mindless support of the “climate change” scam and the invasion of our country by illegal aliens. The abortionistas and gay agenda folks “love” him for his under-cutting of Catholic doctrine on abortion and homosexuality. They all “love” him because they will use his words against practicing christians as the atheist agenda of the democrat/progressives moves forward (you know, the “fundamental transformation” project of Obama and those “devout” catholics Biden, Pelosi, Cuomo, DiBlasio, every last Kennedy to name a very few. The american media will propogandize his leftist views and ignore his traditional views…all to the detriment of morality in the USA and the long-term damage to the practice of Catholicism. Socialism has killed, is killing and will KILL Christianity. Read Karl Marx to understand that socialism is at war with christianity (and now winning with a socialist US government and a sympathetic socialist pope). Catholics should stop “worshipping” him and all the cardinals and bishops. The greatness of our Church is in the laity and the parish priests! The collective charity and acts of love we have the luxury to offer because we are currently free and prosperous. All the rest of the hierarchy are just politicians who want good press coverage. Francis and the Vatican have us on the road to Western European-styled christianity (aka atheism); old, empty cathedrals, visited by atheist tourists in totally secularized countries with few practicing christians to be found. Abandoning or eviscerating eternal truths to get in step with modern “thinking” does not “modernize” the Church. It makes it irrelevant; transient; and worst of all, fully integrated into the ways of this world (Didn’t Jesus teach us to follow him and reject the ways of the world?). Don’t sell your soul to be popular with the atheist left. Francis will drive away far more of the faithful than he will attract from those who left the church. The persecution of practicing Christians by the US government is under way and Francis is largely silent. The genocide of Middleastern Christians and Catholics is not on this Pope’s list of important issues to speak about at the UN. On that point, Francis is consistent with most of the history of our Church leadership…the pope and bishops (our “aristocracy”) are perfectly fine with the status quo of poverty, tyranny et al. Just look at the last 1600 years. Just recently…barely a condemnation for Benito and Adolph back in the 20’s and 30’s. Here in America, 200 years of protestant-inspired liberty lead to free market capitalism that lifted more people out of poverty than the entire history of our church. Sadly, the USA would never have arisen in a Catholic country because the leadership has always worked just fine with tyrants.
Now for a brutally honest and introspective analysis of our pope and our church…
“Dorothy Day” was a radical socialist which is why our current socialist pope named her. Francis is a South American Jesuit (i.e. a liberation theologist) whose government-centered, forced wealth re-distribution ideas are dangerously naive and anathema to the teachings of John Paul II who declared such ideology as intrinsically evil. No more Jesuit or socialist popes, PLEASE. Wake up Catholics! This Pope is a dangerous ignoramus (or worse): ignorant of economics and history; the ultimate “useful idiot.” The atheist media “loves” him for his mindless support of the “climate change” scam and the invasion of our country by illegal aliens. The abortionistas and gay agenda folks “love” him for his under-cutting of Catholic doctrine on abortion and homosexuality. They all “love” him because they will use his words against practicing christians as the atheist agenda of the democrat/progressives moves forward (you know, the “fundamental transformation” project of Obama and those “devout” catholics Biden, Pelosi, Cuomo, DiBlasio, every last Kennedy to name a very few. The american media will propogandize his leftist views and ignore his traditional views…all to the detriment of morality in the USA and the long-term damage to the practice of Catholicism. Socialism has killed, is killing and will KILL Christianity. Read Karl Marx to understand that socialism is at war with christianity (and now winning with a socialist US government and a sympathetic socialist pope). Catholics should stop “worshipping” him and all the cardinals and bishops. The greatness of our Church is in the laity and the parish priests! The collective charity and acts of love we have the luxury to offer because we are currently free and prosperous. All the rest of the hierarchy are just politicians who want good press coverage. Francis and the Vatican have us on the road to Western European-styled christianity (aka atheism); old, empty cathedrals, visited by atheist tourists in totally secularized countries with few practicing christians to be found. Abandoning or eviscerating eternal truths to get in step with modern “thinking” does not “modernize” the Church. It makes it irrelevant; transient; and worst of all, fully integrated into the ways of this world (Didn’t Jesus teach us to follow him and reject the ways of the world?). Don’t sell your soul to be popular with the atheist left. Francis will drive away far more of the faithful than he will attract from those who left the church. The persecution of practicing Christians by the US government is under way and Francis is largely silent. The genocide of Middleastern Christians and Catholics is not on this Pope’s list of important issues to speak about at the UN. On that point, Francis is consistent with most of the history of our Church leadership…the pope and bishops (our “aristocracy”) are perfectly fine with the status quo of poverty, tyranny et al. Just look at the last 1600 years. Just recently…barely a condemnation for Benito and Adolph back in the 20’s and 30’s. Here in America, 200 years of protestant-inspired liberty lead to free market capitalism that lifted more people out of poverty than the entire history of our church. Sadly, the USA would never have arisen in a Catholic country because the leadership has always worked just fine with tyrants.
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dixieagle
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friardchips
Guest
To be honest, to trust everything reported about King is to trust the FBI, which I am not sure I do when we look at the exploits of the FBI early on. If King had marital affairs then that is between him and his wife, and our Creator. No doubt there were a lot of people thankful to him for his efforts and praying for him when he passed, including his wife, who incidentally never remarried - credit where credit is due. It is funny that with one another we are careful to be charitable and yet when the person discussed is someone who cannot reproach us we deem it okay to betray them to the darkness and condemn them to Hell. I say again that I think his wife could be acknowledged more but a character like Martin Luther King could do with being around now. I wonder what he’d have to say about ISIS and I wonder what political efforts would follow as a consequence. One thing he did do was pray before he did things. THAT is faith. And he prayed with his wife too (which the film does not show) before making decisions. The U.S, and humanity, should revere King for his part to play in the fight against enslavement and oppression. As for judgements, let’s leave those to our Creator.
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Darryl1958
Guest
The choices of the pope were interesting ones. They were good ones too in terms of giving examples of what the American dream means at its best.
Lincoln is remembered for bringing about an America true to its Constitution where all men are considered equal in the eyes of God.
Day is an example of an American who worked tirelessly for social justice.
Martin Luther King is an example of carrying on the works of Lincoln and Day, and expressing the ideal that America is indeed one nation under God, where people are measured in terms of their character rather than superficialities such as the color of their skin.
Merton, while likewise being an activist for social justice too, and nuclear non-proliferation specifically, is perhaps better remembered for his explorations of the inner nature of the soul, and the relationship between God and man at the level of the personal. He is also noted for his openness and non-dismissive attitude to similar mystical experiences of people in other religions. This I think is something that is very dear to Pope Francis’ own heart, and his desire to go beyond the superficialities of culture and history and religion that we happen to be born into, and to find common ground by focusing on what all men and women of goodwill hold in common.
Doris Day was not referred to because she was a communist, nor Lincoln because he was a Republican, nor MLK because he was a Protestant minister. These are all examples of people who spent their lives, and even sacrificed themselves in their efforts to realize the American Dream of the Founding Fathers. The two Catholics in the group show specifically how American Catholics have realized the American dream.
I think it was a pretty good speech by the pope.
Lincoln is remembered for bringing about an America true to its Constitution where all men are considered equal in the eyes of God.
Day is an example of an American who worked tirelessly for social justice.
Martin Luther King is an example of carrying on the works of Lincoln and Day, and expressing the ideal that America is indeed one nation under God, where people are measured in terms of their character rather than superficialities such as the color of their skin.
Merton, while likewise being an activist for social justice too, and nuclear non-proliferation specifically, is perhaps better remembered for his explorations of the inner nature of the soul, and the relationship between God and man at the level of the personal. He is also noted for his openness and non-dismissive attitude to similar mystical experiences of people in other religions. This I think is something that is very dear to Pope Francis’ own heart, and his desire to go beyond the superficialities of culture and history and religion that we happen to be born into, and to find common ground by focusing on what all men and women of goodwill hold in common.
Doris Day was not referred to because she was a communist, nor Lincoln because he was a Republican, nor MLK because he was a Protestant minister. These are all examples of people who spent their lives, and even sacrificed themselves in their efforts to realize the American Dream of the Founding Fathers. The two Catholics in the group show specifically how American Catholics have realized the American dream.
I think it was a pretty good speech by the pope.
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pnewton
Guest
I think that was the point, not that they were always good. Paul was a murderer. Peter was a coward. Even Jesus was criticized by the Pharisees for drinking and violating the Sabbath.
So the Pope did the Catholic thing. He recognized the working of God in imperfect vessels that were willing to do the work of God. It is a lesson to all that we can rise above our base nature to do great things. Or we can sit back and join the “accusers of the brethren”.
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philipl
Guest
I stand by what I wrote. Lincoln wanted to export all the slaves back to Africa. He believe that whites and black couldnt live together.
Day was an communist until the day she died. She seem to have a soft spot in her heart for dictators no how many people they murdered.
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Inisfallen
Guest
??? Got any citations for this? It’s at complete odds with everything I know about Ms. Day. I mean, really, I’m pretty sure you’re just flat out wrong. But bring out the evidence – maybe you can convince me.
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pnewton
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We could just wait. Saint John Paul opened her cause for sainthood. Pope Emeritus Benedict said of her, “The journey towards faith in such a secularized environment was particularly difficult, but Grace acts nonetheless.” Now Pope Francis has praised her example before Congress. Three popes in a row would pretty much convince me beyond any evidence.
Her story is one of conversion. We will find ample evidence of communism in here life. That is what she was. However, through it all, she was an example both of strong Catholic faith, and of the love of the poor and needy, dedicating her life to the service of others.
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christofirst
Guest
Who knows? Like Dorothy, Doris Day might one day be considered for sainthood. Que sera, sera.
(sorry, I couldn’t resist).
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pnewton
Guest
Just to be clear, I was speaking of the Dorothy, not Doris. I am so confused, these Days.Who knows? Like Dorothy, Doris Day might one day be considered for sainthood. Que sera, sera.
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Darryl1958
Guest
Well, to be honest, Doris Day had more of an influence on my own life that Dorothy Day ever will.Who knows? Like Dorothy, Doris Day might one day be considered for sainthood. Que sera, sera.
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TMC
Guest
Lincoln is a controversial figure?
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friardchips
Guest
Not that the reported negative traits were necessarily true of these four “great Americans”, and not that our Lord didn’t do everything for a reason, even so, this post is very insightful and worth pondering upon, IMO. Saved, to the desktop!
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Gee, I wondered too.Well, to be honest, Doris Day had more of an influence on my own life that Dorothy Day ever will.
I thought Doris Day dorisday.com/
Jim
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philipl
Guest
There are the two article she penned about good old fidel. And is quote as admiring Ho chi Mein.
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Darryl1958
Guest
Non-conservatives have always had a difficult time discerning the evils of communism.
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christofirst
Guest
And despite all of this controversy and detraction, Venerable Servant of God Dorothy Day is now, with the blessing and approval of the Catholic Church, being considered for sainthood. Could it be that those who insist that their staunchly held idea of conservatism as being completely inherent to and totally inextricable from Catholicism are out of step with the Church? I am most grateful that our Church accepts and finds room for Dorothy Day, and now holds her up as an example of the Christian life for all of us.
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JimR-OCDS
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