Pope Francis names four great Americans

[Darryl1958]

And despite all of this controversy and detraction, Venerable Servant of God Dorothy Day is now, with the blessing and approval of the Catholic Church, being considered for sainthood. Could it be that those who insist that their staunchly held idea of conservatism as being completely inherent to and totally inextricable from Catholicism are out of step with the Church? I am most grateful that our Church accepts and finds room for Dorothy Day, and now holds her up as an example of the Christian life for all of us.

I can recall once how a Sikh colleague of mine originally from India was incensed at how the Church made a saint out of Francis Xavier. Coming from the tradition of Holy Men in India attaining perfection, or so I suspect, it was inconceivable to him how a racist could be held out to be a Holy Man in Christianity.

Whether or not St Francis was a racist and a male chauvinst is disputed by historians. However I think that he had a misconception of what sainthood means in the Catholic Church. (or maybe I have). The way I understand it, sainthood is not based on the perfection of the individual, but on the exceptional grace that they received from God, even if that grace befalls only one particular area of their life. St Thomas Aquinas, for example, was no less of a saint on account of his gluttony. He was far from perfect, but he was exceptional. His light shines infinitely more bright than the shadows that his sin casts.
In terms of Dororthy Day, and maybe Doris too, for all I know, it is perfectly acceptable for people to criticize her on account of her blindness to the evils of communism. She is very much a child of her milieu, which happened to be a leftist one.
The potential path to sainthood for her would not lie in her communist past, or in her blindness to the evils and destruction men like Fidel and Ho foisted upon the world. Her potential path to sainthood would lie in her faithfulness to the Church, and her willingness to bring those teachings to a world in need of them.

“Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church” I think is how the Mass phrases it.

It is a pretty egregious blind spot to have nevertheless, to overlook the evils of communism. In the particular case of Dorothy Day however, it is possible that she might be in a position to thank God for that particular sin, Like a homosexual might thank God for transforming his lust for men into a great agape-based, Christian love for men, it may well be that Dorothy Day’s identification with the proletariat is exactly what led her to work on behalf of the powerless in society, but not through the evil of communism, but through the ways that the Church provides us with.

 

[christofirst]

I can recall once how a Sikh colleague of mine originally from India was incensed at how the Church made a saint out of Francis Xavier. Coming from the tradition of Holy Men in India attaining perfection, or so I suspect, it was inconceivable to him how a racist could be held out to be a Holy Man in Christianity.

Whether or not St Francis was a racist and a male chauvinst is disputed by historians. However I think that he had a misconception of what sainthood means in the Catholic Church. (or maybe I have). The way I understand it, sainthood is not based on the perfection of the individual, but on the exceptional grace that they received from God, even if that grace befalls only one particular area of their life. St Thomas Aquinas, for example, was no less of a saint on account of his gluttony. He was far from perfect, but he was exceptional. His light shines infinitely more bright than the shadows that his sin casts.
In terms of Dororthy Day, and maybe Doris too, for all I know, it is perfectly acceptable for people to criticize her on account of her blindness to the evils of communism. She is very much a child of her milieu, which happened to be a leftist one.
The potential path to sainthood for her would not lie in her communist past, or in her blindness to the evils and destruction men like Fidel and Ho foisted upon the world. Her potential path to sainthood would lie in her faithfulness to the Church, and her willingness to bring those teachings to a world in need of them.

“Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church” I think is how the Mass phrases it.

It is a pretty egregious blind spot to have nevertheless, to overlook the evils of communism. In the particular case of Dorothy Day however, it is possible that she might be in a position to thank God for that particular sin, Like a homosexual might thank God for transforming his lust for men into a great agape-based, Christian love for men, it may well be that Dorothy Day’s identification with the proletariat is exactly what led her to work on behalf of the powerless in society, but not through the evil of communism, but through the ways that the Church provides us with.

I appreciate your thoughtful response.

Yes, the saints are all human, and along with their God-given sanctity they have their faults and imperfections. They are also influenced by the times and places where they lived.

It might be comforting for one with strong conservative leanings to say that Dorothy Day is being considered for sainthood for reasons other than her radical pacifism and strong commitment to communal living and social justice, but these are the major themes of her life. After her conversion, she denounced the atheistic, forced Communism she found attractive in her youth, but she never let go of what she and others termed the “Communism of the Apostles”; voluntarily sharing all in common for the common good of all, in the spirit of Christ, as demonstrated through the Catholic Worker. To suggest that her pacifism and life-long struggle for social justice is a fault to be overlooked like St. Thomas Aquinas’ apparent tendency to overeat is to dismiss the very things which set her apart and place her on the possible road to sainthood.

 

[Latias]

I can recall once how a Sikh colleague of mine originally from India was incensed at how the Church made a saint out of Francis Xavier. Coming from the tradition of Holy Men in India attaining perfection, or so I suspect, it was inconceivable to him how a racist could be held out to be a Holy Man in Christianity.

Whether or not St Francis was a racist and a male chauvinst is disputed by historians. However I think that he had a misconception of what sainthood means in the Catholic Church. (or maybe I have). The way I understand it, sainthood is not based on the perfection of the individual, but on the exceptional grace that they received from God, even if that grace befalls only one particular area of their life. St Thomas Aquinas, for example, was no less of a saint on account of his gluttony. He was far from perfect, but he was exceptional. His light shines infinitely more bright than the shadows that his sin casts.
In terms of Dororthy Day, and maybe Doris too, for all I know, it is perfectly acceptable for people to criticize her on account of her blindness to the evils of communism. She is very much a child of her milieu, which happened to be a leftist one.
The potential path to sainthood for her would not lie in her communist past, or in her blindness to the evils and destruction men like Fidel and Ho foisted upon the world. Her potential path to sainthood would lie in her faithfulness to the Church, and her willingness to bring those teachings to a world in need of them.

“Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church” I think is how the Mass phrases it.

It is a pretty egregious blind spot to have nevertheless, to overlook the evils of communism. In the particular case of Dorothy Day however, it is possible that she might be in a position to thank God for that particular sin, Like a homosexual might thank God for transforming his lust for men into a great agape-based, Christian love for men, it may well be that Dorothy Day’s identification with the proletariat is exactly what led her to work on behalf of the powerless in society, but not through the evil of communism, but through the ways that the Church provides us with.

So you are saying that Dorothy Day is a good Catholic despite her alleged communist sympathies, and that being blind to the so-called “evils of communism” is a sin?

Also, is being a communist or sympathizing with them equivalent to being an inveterate racist (whether or not Francis Xavier was one)?

 

[pnewton]

So you are saying that Dorothy Day is a good Catholic despite her alleged communist sympathies, …??

The Holy Father answered this question for us with a resounding affirmative. Where would any of us be if not for the word “despite?” As to evils of which she was ignorant, ignorance is surely no sin.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

One of the things to keep in mind is that during the days Dorothy Day was into Socialism, many college students and professors were as well.

However, it was not a Stalinist style of Communism which had not become known at the time, but a belief in pure communism. Even pure communism doesn’t work on a national level, for there are too many who would abuse the system for their own purposes, as Stalin and Mao did.

Pure communism does exist however and does well on a small scale where everyone believes and lives by it. A Monastery is an example of a communism that works well, i.e. all live in common and everything is held in common. But all the members freely live by that system.

Not so Stalinist style communism which is totalitarian.

Jim

 

[Latias]

So her supposed support for “communism” is seen as something negative? Something one should ignore or disapprove of if one admires her?

She was most certainly not a Bolshevik, and if she were, she would be aligned with a socialism more congruous with the thinking of Emma Goldman and Rosa Luxumberg, than with Leninism.

Was she really a Bolshevik, or that she just disagreed with US foreign policy to make her be branded as a “communist”? Perhaps that’s her sin, but she was not charismatic, so she did not probably have an FBI file. She was ultimately innocuous and non-threatening if that were the case.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So her supposed support for “communism” is seen as something negative? Something one should ignore or disapprove of if one admires her?

She was most certainly not a Bolshevik, and if she were, she would be aligned with a socialism more congruous with the thinking of Emma Goldman and Rosa Luxumberg, than with Leninism.

Was she really a Bolshevik, or that she just disagreed with US foreign policy to make her be branded as a “communist”? Perhaps that’s her sin, but she was not charismatic, so she did not probably have an FBI file. She was ultimately innocuous and non-threatening if that were the case.

Her communists days were prior to her conversion, which I believe was already stated in this thread.

Jim

 

[Darryl1958]

So you are saying that Dorothy Day is a good Catholic despite her alleged communist sympathies, and that being blind to the so-called “evils of communism” is a sin?

Also, is being a communist or sympathizing with them equivalent to being an inveterate racist (whether or not Francis Xavier was one)?

She is not someone that I would have chosen as an example of four great Americans, but I do not criticize the pope for bringing my mind to someplace where my mind would not usually go.

I think I was even going further and saying that Dorothy Day fulfilled God’s will because of her communist sympathies. While I am not one of those people who say things like communism is good in principle, but fails only in practice, I do see the intentions of many people drawn into communism as well-meaning. There are many who got sucked into that vortex because they genuinely care about people without power, and the injustices or unfairness that people suffer under as a result of those inequities.
There is something very Christian about that too. There is something very Catholic about seeing Christ in the least of our brothers.
Now I don’t really know enough about Dorothy Day’s own biography to say whether the activism she engaged in on behalf of the poor was good in result, or just good in intent, but I do agree with the Catholic teaching that it is the heart that Christ judges, and not necessarily the lack of results.
Of course from a political point of view, results are all that matter. I just don’t have enough information on DD to say one way or another whether or not she made the same kind of difference that Lincoln or MLK did.
I do know that Merton spoke to the concerns of a lot of the people in his time though.

 

[friardchips]

The Second Greatest American (after Martin Luther King) that ever lived, is:

youtube.com/watch?v=tSGQYAXIelw

BUGS BUNNY!

I can reel off fifteen reasons easily why he is number two ahead of Thomas Merton, Lincoln and Doris Day!

Actually, make it twenty.

 

[friardchips]

Ultimately, these people stood, and still stand out, for doing right despite inner conflict and external pressures, which often threaten to prevail. Actions speaks loudest.

I also think these people are positioned up against the figures that loom down upon us in the celebrity culture. As stand alone celebrities, with no righteous stand, no actors or actresses, or those that represent affluence for the sake of affluence, or careerism, were mentioned. Doris Day is the exception. She was a celebrity and yet used her means as a way of doing right. Mammon did not rule over faith but faith made use of a means to serve a higher purpose.

 

[ringil]

I would have picked Augustus Tolton, but then again I am not the Pope!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_Tolton

 

[christofirst]

Concerning the two Catholics selected by Pope Francis, Thomas Merton and Dorothy Day, I am most heartened by the possibilities that these two represent.

I have often read, both on these forums and elsewhere, that a wise Catholic should avoid anything to do with communism, be wary of ecumenism, and denounce pacifism. Now, Pope Francis extolls the virtues of two American Catholics who not only explored but in many ways embraced these very notions.

Dorothy Day took what was potentially good about communism - not the Godless system of tyrants that it became in Russia and China, but as a way of helping the poor - and she applied to that her Christian values to come up with the ideals behind the Catholic Worker.

Thomas Merton, Trappist monk, explored non-Christian faiths, and not only for purposes of academic interest or for evangelization, but to find common ground with those Buddhist monks; to meet them, and to pray with them, and to see what we Catholic Christians could learn from them.

Both Merton and Day were very critical of the wars that the U.S. was involved in during their time. They were both peace activists in their own way, and both accused at various times of being unpatriotic and somehow less than Christian, Dorothy Day especially since she was an outspoken and passionate pacifist.

And these are the very two chosen by Pope Francis. Does this mean we Catholics must now become interested in communism, ecumenism, or pacifism? Of course not. But for those of us who are interested in these things, this is a true message of hope and encouragement from our Holy Father. The point is not that we** must **consider alternative ways of promoting social justice, or engage in interreligious dialogue, or work for peace in even radical ways, but that we can do and consider such ways and still be good Catholics.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Concerning the two Catholics selected by Pope Francis, Thomas Merton and Dorothy Day, I am most heartened by the possibilities that these two represent.

I have often read, both on these forums and elsewhere, that a wise Catholic should avoid anything to do with communism, be wary of ecumenism, and denounce pacifism. Now, Pope Francis extolls the virtues of two American Catholics who not only explored but in many ways embraced these very notions.

Dorothy Day took what was potentially good about communism - not the Godless system of tyrants that it became in Russia and China, but as a way of helping the poor - and she applied to that her Christian values to come up with the ideals behind the Catholic Worker.

Thomas Merton, Trappist monk, explored non-Christian faiths, and not only for purposes of academic interest or for evangelization, but to find common ground with those Buddhist monks; to meet them, and to pray with them, and to see what we Catholic Christians could learn from them.

Both Merton and Day were very critical of the wars that the U.S. was involved in during their time. They were both peace activists in their own way, and both accused at various times of being unpatriotic and somehow less than Christian, Dorothy Day especially since she was an outspoken and passionate pacifist.

And these are the very two chosen by Pope Francis. Does this mean we Catholics must now become interested in communism, ecumenism, or pacifism? Of course not. But for those of us who are interested in these things, this is a true message of hope and encouragement from our Holy Father. The point is not that we** must **consider alternative ways of promoting social justice, or engage in interreligious dialogue, or work for peace in even radical ways, but that we can do and consider such ways and still be good Catholics.

It should be noted here that Thomas Merton did not learn about Eastern Religion out of his own doing.

He as well as others in contemplative orders of the Catholic Church, were responding to Pope Paul VI’s call for them to begin dialogue with leaders of Eastern Religions, in order to learn why young Catholics of the late 60’s and 70’s, were leaving the Catholic Church for religions of the East.

Lastly, Thomas Merton never lost his Christian faith as critics try to claim. He never left the Trappists, and only traveled East with permission from his superiors.

Pope Francis is obviously well read on Thomas Merton and loves his work, otherwise he would never have mentioned him to begin with.

Jim

 

[friardchips]

I have often read, both on these forums and elsewhere, that a wise Catholic should avoid anything to do with communism, be wary of ecumenism, and denounce pacifism. Now, Pope Francis extolls the virtues of two American Catholics who not only explored but in many ways embraced these very notions.

Dorothy Day took what was potentially good about communism - not the Godless system of tyrants that it became in Russia and China, but as a way of helping the poor - and she applied to that her Christian values to come up with the ideals behind the Catholic Worker.

On one hand I agree and on the other not.

Pope Francis has acknowledged marxists as having something to say and so in this way it does reflect your notion but on the other hand I think the Pope’s acknowledgment is more along the lines of proving she was serious-minded than thinking communism has anything to offer in itself. Reason being, that naming a then-celebrity is dangerous for many reasons, because of the fact that celebrities are, in one aspect, a commercial image, a brand, and therefore, to some degree, their positions automatically promote materialism, which is idol worship, neglectful of the poor, and an evil distraction we know Pope Francis sees as a big no-no present in capitalist systems…

So, if it were not for her communist sensibilities, revealed in her private life, she could be mistaken as just another celebrity putting charity up for show, for the sake of the cameras, in order to gain further public recognition for her brand-name…

But because she has communist sensibilities, this shows she is serious-minded and seriously-intentioned, rather than shallow. Anyone western who is a communist maybe be misled but they are certainly serious-minded. For a person to see themselves in such a light exposes the social and political-mindedness of the individual. This, in all extents, reveals her to be genuine in her efforts as a Catholic.

So her communist links, on the one hand, shows she was genuinely and seriously intentioned as a Catholic and that her celebrity life was not as a means to itself, but on the other hand, her life is a contradiction to the worst that the capitalist system is heralded as being great for - so not much about communism in itself but certain social aspects that marxists think are good before they end up misled by eating all the porridge!

 

[pnewton]

I have often read, both on these forums and elsewhere, that a wise Catholic should avoid anything to do with communism, be wary of ecumenism, and denounce pacifism. Now, Pope Francis extolls the virtues of two American Catholics who not only explored but in many ways embraced these very notions.

He mentioned four people, not the ideas you mention, and specified why he used them as examples. He no more supported other ideas associated with them than Jesus supported betrayal by elevating Peter after the Resurrection.

 

[friardchips]

…the worst consequences of Capitalism is in fact Communism, and the best of Communism, is that Communism exposes the deficient areas of Capitalism (utilitarianism) - two extremes that occasionally collide.

 

[Darryl1958]

hyperink.com/Major-Accomplishments-And-Awards-b1426a11

I found this article to be a pretty good snapshot of who Dorothy Day was.

Establishing the poor houses seems to be her biggest accomplishment.

One does have to wonder though, if she was a socialist first, and Catholicism was the means to advance her pet socialist causes? The description of the Catholic Worker magazine being established by her lover and herself somehow does not seem to display a deep and serious commitment to Catholicism even though this seems to be what she is most remembered for.
I suppose that the funds to run her poor houses would have been garnered from the Catholic readership of the magazine, who likely would have a deeper commitment to the sacrament of marriage than she and her lover did at the time of the magazines founding.

I would say that she comes out on the right ‘side of history’ on her opposition to Catholic fascism in Spain, the wrong side of history in her pacifism for WWII, and the silly side of history for refusing to participate in New York air raid drills.

 

[Inisfallen]

hyperink.com/Major-Accomplishments-And-Awards-b1426a11

I found this article to be a pretty good snapshot of who Dorothy Day was.

Establishing the poor houses seems to be her biggest accomplishment.

One does have to wonder though, if she was a socialist first, and Catholicism was the means to advance her pet socialist causes? The description of the Catholic Worker magazine being established by her lover and herself somehow does not seem to display a deep and serious commitment to Catholicism even though this seems to be what she is most remembered for.
I suppose that the funds to run her poor houses would have been garnered from the Catholic readership of the magazine, who likely would have a deeper commitment to the sacrament of marriage than she and her lover did at the time of the magazines founding.

I would say that she comes out on the right ‘side of history’ on her opposition to Catholic fascism in Spain, the wrong side of history in her pacifism for WWII, and the silly side of history for refusing to participate in New York air raid drills.

I’m amazed that the article to which you link makes the claim that Peter Maurin was her “lover.” I have *never *seen this claim anywhere else, and I am certain that it is flat-out not true.

The article also either omits or distorts other significant events and motivations in Ms. Day’s life.

She was not (despite what you’ll read in these forums) a Communist. She was, starting in her late twenties, first and foremost a Catholic. If one must assign a label to her political and social views, she was a pacifist and a Distributist.

 

[J_Peterson]

hyperink.com/Major-Accomplishments-And-Awards-b1426a11

I found this article to be a pretty good snapshot of who Dorothy Day was.

Establishing the poor houses seems to be her biggest accomplishment.

One does have to wonder though, if she was a socialist first, and Catholicism was the means to advance her pet socialist causes? The description of the Catholic Worker magazine being established by her lover and herself somehow does not seem to display a deep and serious commitment to Catholicism even though this seems to be what she is most remembered for.
I suppose that the funds to run her poor houses would have been garnered from the Catholic readership of the magazine, who likely would have a deeper commitment to the sacrament of marriage than she and her lover did at the time of the magazines founding.

I would say that she comes out on the right ‘side of history’ on her opposition to Catholic fascism in Spain, the wrong side of history in her pacifism for WWII, and the silly side of history for refusing to participate in New York air raid drills.

Peter Maurin was her lover?! I believe that’s false. I’ve never heard that before.

 

[Inisfallen]

For those who insist that Dorothy Day was a Communist, here’s something from one of Peter Maurin’s Easy Essays (which were the guiding principles of the Catholic Worker):

We Catholics have a better criticism
of bourgeois society
than Victor Considerant’s criticism.
used by Karl Marx.
Our criticism of bourgeois society
is the criticism of St. Thomas More.
We Catholics have a better
conception of Communism
than the conception of Proudhon.
Our conception of Communism
is the conception of St. Thomas Aquinas
in his doctrine of the “Common Good.”
We Catholics have better means
than the means proposed by Karl Marx.
Our means to realize the “Common Good”
are embodied in Catholic Action.
Catholic Action is action by Catholics
for Catholics and non-Catholics.
We don’t want to take over the control
of political and economic life.
We want to reconstruct the social order
through Catholic Action
exercised in Catholic
institutions.