T
ThundersnowIV
Guest
Well said…but we must still love as Christ ordered us
Pope Francis on Apologizing to Gays (And More): 6 things to know and share [Akin]
- Status
J
jcrichton
Guest
…while on that, research and explain why “acquired immune deficiency syndrome” does not deter those who consciously seek it.
It’s simple: once there were two brothers; one decided: ‘hey, let me do what I feel is right and just;’ while the other thought to himself: ‘let me offer the best to God.’
At the end God approved of the one that made the best offering (an offering of the heart with love and respect) and the dejected brother decided: ‘my way or six-foot-under for you, brother!’
Love of self has not changed the equation: me + everything vs. God nil; yay me!
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
I fully concur!
It seems that the Pope is bendingoverbackwards (yeah, a new composite word, cause I feel it is needed) to meet with his adulant fans; yet, he seems not to note that he is actually kicking down the doors and helping the hordes ransack the Church.
It is one thing for me to Love (Christian Love) a person regardless of his/her sin; but, quite a different thing for me to excuse and even enable his/her behavior (and vice versa).
The Pope just went on another “exposition” of “love” and “understanding” about the Sacrament of Marriage–it seems that most people are not at fault when they get divorced, have extramarital affairs or even embrace all sorts of relations; the Pope seems to imply that people are just ignorant of the gravity and Sanctity of the Sacrament… ‘so come one come all, lets get those marriages nullified–let’s all get a fresh start, in the name of love.’
I’ve never seem so much clarification be the well of so much confusion!
Maran atha!
Angel
E
edwest2
Guest
As someone who studies the media, what you say is true. Too many young people in school are also being told what to believe. The media, in most cases, is not informing but evangelizing. It models many behaviors as good that we know are not good. I say this because “opinion culture” has overtaken the truth in too many places, including the internet.
All of us are sinners, but we are also called to speak the truth. In charity and in regard for our neighbors.
Church teaching has not changed. Doctrinal elements have not changed.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html
Here is the full text of what Pope Francis said:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html
It should be read in its entirety because we need to see that the Pope is dealing with many issues.
God bless,
Ed
M
Marcus_T
Guest
Absolutely not!! In fact, it should be the other way around, the gay community should be apologizing to us christians for trying to force their immoral, sinful and disgusting lifestyle upon us. They are using dirty tactics to convince us we are wrong and if we should disagree with them, their ultimate goal is to destroy us. However, I do agree with the church that we should treat gay people with respect and dignity as they are also children of God, but we should never, ever condone their beliefs or lifestyle.
L
Lover_of_truth1
Guest
S
Strydersroom
Guest
Hello friend, it seems that you are at an impasse. I am a married gay man with children, yet you just managed to, in a broad, sweeping gesture, call my “lifestyle” immoral, sinful and disgusting. How do you think that makes me feel? You obviously no nothing about me, yet by using such demonizing language, you have created an us vs them, me vs you mentality, and divided we all fall.
Now I absolutely think you can believe anything you wish, as much as I vehemently disagree with it. But I would also ask only that you accept that many many other’s do NOT share your view, with more changing every day. So stop for just one brief second and realize we all share this planet as brothers and sisters. Using such language does nothing to promote your cause, in fact it is doing the opposite. Which is why I have great respect for the pope for talking about an apology
Apology accepted Papa. Cheers.
H
Harry123
Guest
Do you understand what the pope was apologizing for? And what he was not apologizing for? I think one of the main concerns on this thread is that people would misinterpret what the pope was apologizing for, and take it that he was saying the catholic church is now ok with gay unions or something to that effect.
S
steve_b
Guest
:dts:
Something is missing here. At least I hope it’s missing and that this is NOT all there is to the story.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
We accept that. But we can’t change our views.
B
bear06
Guest
Well here’s an apology! She’s right. The video is good. onemadmomblog.wordpress.com/2016/06/28/im-sorry-so-sorry/
C
Church_Militant
Guest
And this is exactly the problem. You have embraced (and are promoting) a lifestyle that the Catholic Church still consistently teaches is disordered and sinful. Here…read it for yourself from the Catechism. We make no apology…and neither does Pope Francis for the truth expressed here.
Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
So if that hurts your feelings perhaps you need to take it up with God (Yes, the one that you say you are not sure exists) since we have the OT witness of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 18 and 19 as clear evidence of a society that wants, allows, and condones men seeking to “know” other men. (See also Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13)
Then also we have the plain speech of St. Paul in Romans 1 where he very plainly says,***[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth.
[19] For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
[20] Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;
[21] for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.
[22] Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
[23] and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.
[24] Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
[25] because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
[26] For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
[27] and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
[28] And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct.
[29] They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips,
[30] slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
[31] foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
[32] Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them. ***
C
Church_Militant
Guest
This is the teaching of the Catholic Church and all Biblically faithful Christian communities.
You can be offended if you wish, but no one need apologize for telling you the truth any more than we need apologize for telling all heterosexuals that they are called to chastity and must deny themselves take up their cross daily and follow Jesus Christ. It’s the same Gospel for everyone.
But don’t ever expect us to apologize to you for detesting your political agenda and immoral propaganda to the gullible young as you seek to convince society that the LGBT lifestyle is normal and moral. Faithful Catholics (including and especially Pope Francis) will never buy it nor condone it. All Pope Francis has said is that we may owe you an apology for those who have violated the mandates laid down in the Catechism, to whit: "
**They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." **Acceptance is fine and right, but that will never change the opposition to any and all sin and don’t think for a second that we will stand idly by and allow LGBT propaganda to be used to proselytized us or (and especially our youth) away from faithful Christian living.
Already judgement is coming for decades of murdering the unborn which makes the sins of Israel in sacrificing children to Moloch look like a day at the beach and now because of the way so much of society has fallen for that LGBT propaganda as promoted by the media…we can only expect it.
Look up Isaiah 6:9-13 and then remember what Thomas Jefferson said at the founding of this nation.
"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."
You can be offended if you wish, but no one need apologize for telling you the truth any more than we need apologize for telling all heterosexuals that they are called to chastity and must deny themselves take up their cross daily and follow Jesus Christ. It’s the same Gospel for everyone.
But don’t ever expect us to apologize to you for detesting your political agenda and immoral propaganda to the gullible young as you seek to convince society that the LGBT lifestyle is normal and moral. Faithful Catholics (including and especially Pope Francis) will never buy it nor condone it. All Pope Francis has said is that we may owe you an apology for those who have violated the mandates laid down in the Catechism, to whit: "
**They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." **Acceptance is fine and right, but that will never change the opposition to any and all sin and don’t think for a second that we will stand idly by and allow LGBT propaganda to be used to proselytized us or (and especially our youth) away from faithful Christian living.
Already judgement is coming for decades of murdering the unborn which makes the sins of Israel in sacrificing children to Moloch look like a day at the beach and now because of the way so much of society has fallen for that LGBT propaganda as promoted by the media…we can only expect it.
Look up Isaiah 6:9-13 and then remember what Thomas Jefferson said at the founding of this nation.
"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."
E
edwest2
Guest
Ezekial 33:8
"When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.
33:9
“But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved.” NIV
We should not mistreat gay people, and God is merciful, but also just. That goes for heterosexuals as well. All of us are sinners but we must move toward the Lord and not away.
God bless,
Ed
"When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.
33:9
“But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved.” NIV
We should not mistreat gay people, and God is merciful, but also just. That goes for heterosexuals as well. All of us are sinners but we must move toward the Lord and not away.
God bless,
Ed
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
I think a lot of people on this forum would probably cringe and call Jesus hateful if He would have come on this because He would have said the Truth. Truth is regarded in this country as “intolerant” and “judgemental.” I for one would prefer to be slapped by Truth than kissed by lies.
C
Catholic_Opinion
Guest
jimmyakin.com/wp-content/uploads/Pope_Francis_3_on_papal_flight_from_Africa_to_Italy_Nov_30_2015_Credit_Martha_Calderon_CNA_11_30_15-300x200.jpgDuring his recent plane flight back from Armenia, Pope Francis gave a press conference in which he discussed a number of issues, including the question of whether Catholics should apologize to homosexuals.
Here are 6 things to know and share . . .
1) Where can I read the full text of the press conference?
You can read it here.
2) What did the pope discuss during the press conference?
He answered questions dealing with:
He stated that he hadn’t seen Msgr. Ganswein’s comments, but that Benedict resigned in 2013 and, consequently, “there is one single Pope” now. Benedict “is the Pope Emeritus, not the second Pope.”
He mentioned a rumor he heard:
I heard this, maybe they’re just rumors but they fit with his character – that some have gone there (to him) to complain because of this new Pope… and he chased them away, eh, with the best Bavarian style, educated, but he chased them away.
If this happened, it does fit with Benedict’s known character. He is very conscious that he is setting an example for future popes who resign, and staying out of their successors’ way and praying for them is the example he has determined to set.
Pope Francis also spoke warmly of Benedict:
I’ve said that it’s a grace to have a wise grandfather at home. I’ve also told him to his face and he laughs, but for me he is the Pope Emeritus. He is the wise grandfather. He is the man that protects my shoulders and back with his prayer. . . .
He’s a man of his word, an upstanding, upstanding, upstanding man. . . .
I will be [at https://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/benedict-xvi-celebrates-65-years-of-priesthood-expressing-thanks/”]the celebration of Benedict’s 65th ordination anniversary] and I will say something to this great man of prayer, of courage that is the Pope Emeritus . . . who is faithful to his word and a great man of God, is very intelligent, and for me he is the wise grandfather at home.
4) What did Pope Francis say regarding Martin Luther and ecumenism?
Actually, even more significant is something he did not say.
In posing the question to him, the German reporter asked whether the Church might “annul or withdraw the excommunication of Martin Luther or of [have] some sort of rehabilitation” for the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.
Pope Francis completely sidestepped this suggestion in his response and didn’t say anything about it.
His comments on Luther were diplomatic, drawing a distinction between Luther’s intentions and his methods (i.e., actions):
I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct.
Pope Francis also praised the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification that was signed by the Catholic Church, the Lutheran World Federation, and later by the World Methodist Council, but he noted the continuing reality of divisions, including in the Protestant world. Thus mentioned that there were even two Lutheran churches in Buenos Aires that did not fully get along.
In spite of such divisions, he suggested that Christians pray together and work together on behalf of the poor, the persecuted, etc., while theologians study the questions that divide different groups of Christians.
However, he cautioned:
But this is a long path, very long. One time jokingly I said: I know when full unity will happen. – “when?” – “the day after the Son of Man comes,” because we don’t know…the Holy Spirit will give the grace, but in the meantime, praying, loving each other and working together.
This suggests a more realistic understanding of ecumenical possibilities than some ecumenists have entertained in recent years.
The divisions separating Christians, particularly in the Protestant community, are too numerous and deep to allow full union any time soon—if ever. Consequently, joint prayer and social action, not corporate reunion, is the most that can be achieved at present.
5) What did Pope Francis say regarding ordained deaconesses?
He downplayed the idea. He began with a joke from an Argentinian president to the effect that if you want something not to be resolved, let a commission study it. This seemed to downplay expectations for the new commission studying the question of ordained deaconesses, which he recently agreed to.
He also indicated he was aware that, while there were women called “deaconesses” in the early Church, this did not mean they had the sacrament of holy orders and they had only limited functions, such as assisting bishops in situations that would be inappropriate for a male to participate in (e.g., examining a woman’s body, unclothed, for signs of spousal abuse).
He also expressed displeasure at those (apparently referring to the media) who spun his prior comments on the subject as being “open” to ordaining deaconesses:
They said: “The Church opens the door to deaconesses.” Really? I was a bit annoyed because this is not telling the truth of things.
All he had agreed to was letting a commission study the question, and he downplayed the idea it would come to different conclusions than similar studies had already reached:
I spoke with the prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith *, and he told me, “look, there is a study which the international theological commission had made in 1980.”
And I asked the president to please make a list. Give me a list of who I can take to create this commission. He sent me the list to create this commission, but I believe that the theme has been studied a lot, and I don’t think it will be difficult to shed light on this argument.
Here the Holy Father apparently refers to a study by the International Theological Commission, which was actually released in 2002, that concluded the deaconesses in the early Church were not ordained.
Instead of ordaining deaconesses, Pope Francis pointed to the value of an ongoing role for women’s voices in theology, as with a commission of women theologians he previously appointed.
6) What did Pope Francis say regarding Catholics apologizing to homosexuals?
Let’s first deal with the subject itself:
Now put yourself in the position of the pope: You’re talking to the world media, knowing whatever you say is going to get distilled through the distorting lens the media uses for everything. Are you really going to say, “No, I don’t think Christians should apologize to homosexuals?”
Your critics can come back with the obvious fact that Christians are sinners and have committed faults regarding homosexuals in the past (including lynchings).
Taking a “no apology” stance would produce a media firestorm that would push homosexuals even farther from the Church and do damage to the prospects of reaching them with the gospel.
On the other hand, taking a groveling, “Yes, we’ve done everything wrong. We’re walking evil incarnate” approach is not going to help them—or anyone else—either.
So, as pope, you’re likely to seek a middle ground—finding a way to acknowledge the proper role of apologizing for past faults without denying Church teaching or blowing this one issue out of proportion.
And that’s what the pope did.
He began by orienting his remarks with respect to what he has said previously and what the Catechism says:
I will repeat what I said on my first trip. I repeat what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says: that they must not be discriminated against, that they must be respected and accompanied pastorally. . . .
And we must accompany them well…this is what the catechism says, a clear catechism.
Pope Francis’s repeated references to the Catechism indicate his remarks are to be understood in light of what it says regarding homosexuality (see CCC 2357-2359). He may not repeat everything the Catechism states in his off-the-cuff answer, but he is taking the Catechism as his orienting point for the issue.
He also noted that the homosexual community can be the subject of criticism:
One can condemn, but not for theological reasons, but for reasons of political behavior…Certain manifestations are a bit too offensive for others, no?
In view of his orienting his remarks from the Catechism, when he says homosexuals are not to be condemned for theological reasons, he apparently means that Catholic theology doesn’t condemn a person simply because he has homosexual tendencies.
His willingness to acknowledge grounds for criticizing the actions of some homosexuals for offensive behavior in the social-political sphere is noteworthy.
Also noteworthy is his repetition, with slight modification, of one of his most famous remarks on the subject:
The problem is a person that has a condition, that has good will and who seeks God, who are we to judge?
As before, the “who (am I/are we) to judge” remark assumes that the person in question has good will and is seeking God—not displaying ill will and ignoring God while seeking to justify homosexual actions.
While not repudiating Cardinal Marx’s suggestion that Catholics should apologize to homosexuals for past faults, Pope Francis sought to frame the thought in a larger context:
I think that the Church must not only ask forgiveness – like that “Marxist Cardinal” said (laughs) – must not only ask forgiveness to the gay person who is offended. But she must ask forgiveness to the poor too, to women who are exploited, to children who are exploited for labor. She must ask forgiveness for having blessed so many weapons. The Church must ask forgiveness for not behaving many times – when I say the Church, I mean Christians! The Church is holy, we are sinners!
He didn’t say anything further regarding homosexuals but instead reflected on how the Church contains both wheat and weeds, as in Jesus’ parable (Matt. 13:24-30).
Thus, when asked about Cardinal Marx’s statement, Pope Francis:
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More…*
Here are 6 things to know and share . . .
1) Where can I read the full text of the press conference?
You can read it here.
2) What did the pope discuss during the press conference?
He answered questions dealing with:
- His impressions of Armenia and his hopes for it.
- What he plans to do in a forthcoming trip to Azerbaijan
- Why he chose to describe the massive Turkish slaughter of Armenians in the early 20th century as a “genocide,” knowing that this word would displease Turkish authorities.
- His reaction to recent comments by Msgr. Georg Ganswein that seemed to suggest Pope Emeritus Benedict still somehow exercises papal ministry.
- His thoughts on the current efforts in the Orthodox community to hold a Pan-Orthodox Council
- His thoughts on Britain’s decision to leave the European Union
- Martin Luther and ecumenism
- The issues of whether the Church could have ordained deaconesses
- Cardinal Marx’s recent statement that Catholics should apologize to homosexuals
- What he will do when he visits Poland for World Youth Day
He stated that he hadn’t seen Msgr. Ganswein’s comments, but that Benedict resigned in 2013 and, consequently, “there is one single Pope” now. Benedict “is the Pope Emeritus, not the second Pope.”
He mentioned a rumor he heard:
I heard this, maybe they’re just rumors but they fit with his character – that some have gone there (to him) to complain because of this new Pope… and he chased them away, eh, with the best Bavarian style, educated, but he chased them away.
If this happened, it does fit with Benedict’s known character. He is very conscious that he is setting an example for future popes who resign, and staying out of their successors’ way and praying for them is the example he has determined to set.
Pope Francis also spoke warmly of Benedict:
I’ve said that it’s a grace to have a wise grandfather at home. I’ve also told him to his face and he laughs, but for me he is the Pope Emeritus. He is the wise grandfather. He is the man that protects my shoulders and back with his prayer. . . .
He’s a man of his word, an upstanding, upstanding, upstanding man. . . .
I will be [at https://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/benedict-xvi-celebrates-65-years-of-priesthood-expressing-thanks/”]the celebration of Benedict’s 65th ordination anniversary] and I will say something to this great man of prayer, of courage that is the Pope Emeritus . . . who is faithful to his word and a great man of God, is very intelligent, and for me he is the wise grandfather at home.
4) What did Pope Francis say regarding Martin Luther and ecumenism?
Actually, even more significant is something he did not say.
In posing the question to him, the German reporter asked whether the Church might “annul or withdraw the excommunication of Martin Luther or of [have] some sort of rehabilitation” for the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.
Pope Francis completely sidestepped this suggestion in his response and didn’t say anything about it.
His comments on Luther were diplomatic, drawing a distinction between Luther’s intentions and his methods (i.e., actions):
I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct.
Pope Francis also praised the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification that was signed by the Catholic Church, the Lutheran World Federation, and later by the World Methodist Council, but he noted the continuing reality of divisions, including in the Protestant world. Thus mentioned that there were even two Lutheran churches in Buenos Aires that did not fully get along.
In spite of such divisions, he suggested that Christians pray together and work together on behalf of the poor, the persecuted, etc., while theologians study the questions that divide different groups of Christians.
However, he cautioned:
But this is a long path, very long. One time jokingly I said: I know when full unity will happen. – “when?” – “the day after the Son of Man comes,” because we don’t know…the Holy Spirit will give the grace, but in the meantime, praying, loving each other and working together.
This suggests a more realistic understanding of ecumenical possibilities than some ecumenists have entertained in recent years.
The divisions separating Christians, particularly in the Protestant community, are too numerous and deep to allow full union any time soon—if ever. Consequently, joint prayer and social action, not corporate reunion, is the most that can be achieved at present.
5) What did Pope Francis say regarding ordained deaconesses?
He downplayed the idea. He began with a joke from an Argentinian president to the effect that if you want something not to be resolved, let a commission study it. This seemed to downplay expectations for the new commission studying the question of ordained deaconesses, which he recently agreed to.
He also indicated he was aware that, while there were women called “deaconesses” in the early Church, this did not mean they had the sacrament of holy orders and they had only limited functions, such as assisting bishops in situations that would be inappropriate for a male to participate in (e.g., examining a woman’s body, unclothed, for signs of spousal abuse).
He also expressed displeasure at those (apparently referring to the media) who spun his prior comments on the subject as being “open” to ordaining deaconesses:
They said: “The Church opens the door to deaconesses.” Really? I was a bit annoyed because this is not telling the truth of things.
All he had agreed to was letting a commission study the question, and he downplayed the idea it would come to different conclusions than similar studies had already reached:
I spoke with the prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith *, and he told me, “look, there is a study which the international theological commission had made in 1980.”
And I asked the president to please make a list. Give me a list of who I can take to create this commission. He sent me the list to create this commission, but I believe that the theme has been studied a lot, and I don’t think it will be difficult to shed light on this argument.
Here the Holy Father apparently refers to a study by the International Theological Commission, which was actually released in 2002, that concluded the deaconesses in the early Church were not ordained.
Instead of ordaining deaconesses, Pope Francis pointed to the value of an ongoing role for women’s voices in theology, as with a commission of women theologians he previously appointed.
6) What did Pope Francis say regarding Catholics apologizing to homosexuals?
Let’s first deal with the subject itself:
- Have Christians ever committed offenses against homosexual people? Yes. Christians, like everyone else, are sinners.
- Should we apologize when we’ve done something wrong? In an appropriate time and way, yes. This is not a controversial point.
- Therefore, should Christians apologize for faults committed against homosexual people? In an appropriate time and way, yes, just like you’d apologize for wrongs done to anyone.
Now put yourself in the position of the pope: You’re talking to the world media, knowing whatever you say is going to get distilled through the distorting lens the media uses for everything. Are you really going to say, “No, I don’t think Christians should apologize to homosexuals?”
Your critics can come back with the obvious fact that Christians are sinners and have committed faults regarding homosexuals in the past (including lynchings).
Taking a “no apology” stance would produce a media firestorm that would push homosexuals even farther from the Church and do damage to the prospects of reaching them with the gospel.
On the other hand, taking a groveling, “Yes, we’ve done everything wrong. We’re walking evil incarnate” approach is not going to help them—or anyone else—either.
So, as pope, you’re likely to seek a middle ground—finding a way to acknowledge the proper role of apologizing for past faults without denying Church teaching or blowing this one issue out of proportion.
And that’s what the pope did.
He began by orienting his remarks with respect to what he has said previously and what the Catechism says:
I will repeat what I said on my first trip. I repeat what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says: that they must not be discriminated against, that they must be respected and accompanied pastorally. . . .
And we must accompany them well…this is what the catechism says, a clear catechism.
Pope Francis’s repeated references to the Catechism indicate his remarks are to be understood in light of what it says regarding homosexuality (see CCC 2357-2359). He may not repeat everything the Catechism states in his off-the-cuff answer, but he is taking the Catechism as his orienting point for the issue.
He also noted that the homosexual community can be the subject of criticism:
One can condemn, but not for theological reasons, but for reasons of political behavior…Certain manifestations are a bit too offensive for others, no?
In view of his orienting his remarks from the Catechism, when he says homosexuals are not to be condemned for theological reasons, he apparently means that Catholic theology doesn’t condemn a person simply because he has homosexual tendencies.
His willingness to acknowledge grounds for criticizing the actions of some homosexuals for offensive behavior in the social-political sphere is noteworthy.
Also noteworthy is his repetition, with slight modification, of one of his most famous remarks on the subject:
The problem is a person that has a condition, that has good will and who seeks God, who are we to judge?
As before, the “who (am I/are we) to judge” remark assumes that the person in question has good will and is seeking God—not displaying ill will and ignoring God while seeking to justify homosexual actions.
While not repudiating Cardinal Marx’s suggestion that Catholics should apologize to homosexuals for past faults, Pope Francis sought to frame the thought in a larger context:
I think that the Church must not only ask forgiveness – like that “Marxist Cardinal” said (laughs) – must not only ask forgiveness to the gay person who is offended. But she must ask forgiveness to the poor too, to women who are exploited, to children who are exploited for labor. She must ask forgiveness for having blessed so many weapons. The Church must ask forgiveness for not behaving many times – when I say the Church, I mean Christians! The Church is holy, we are sinners!
He didn’t say anything further regarding homosexuals but instead reflected on how the Church contains both wheat and weeds, as in Jesus’ parable (Matt. 13:24-30).
Thus, when asked about Cardinal Marx’s statement, Pope Francis:
- sought to reiterate what he had previously said,
- sought to reiterate what the Catechism says,
- gave the proposal a nominal endorsement, and then
- took the focus off the question of homosexuals.
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H
Harry123
Guest
And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.
JOHN 2:15
There comes a time when you need to stand steadfast in the truth.
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Marcus!
I concur with you that we should treat others with Christian love and respect. Yet, as you’ve stated what is done to Christians is swept under the mountain while the sin and sinners are placed on a super pedestal or “right.”
Interestingly enough the miseducation spoken of on a previous post shows through in yours as you call all people children of God (which is what many from the pulpit have been doing) when in reality we are only creatures, Created in God’s image and likeness; quite short from actually Being children of God:
Though we may wish to induct everyone into Christ’s inheritance, not all receive the adoption of children of God because not all Believe (take Christ as Lord and Savior) in Christ.
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi!
I concur with you that the langue of the post was strong and could even be seen as offensive; yet, as wrong and offensive as it may have been it does speak to two important points on the issue: 1) Biblical morality, and 2) strong arm of the secular government used to force those who disagree with the culture of death and homosexuality into extinction.
While I agree with your statement that more and more people are sharing your views on these very issues, it does not mean that God will one day change Biblical Teaching and accept man as man desires to be. Hence, those who are Faithful to Scriptures and the Church can not pretend that everything is permissible–not even under the guise that "God is “love.”
When the Pope speaks/writes in such fashion as to create a false sense of acceptance (as he just did with the Sacrament of Marriage) it allows for even the Believers to be confounded and end up supporting anti-Doctrinal beliefs.
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Ed!
(…just to expand in what you’ve stated) …it seems that people are confusing the issues… it is not that heterosexuals are “good” by default; sex outside of the Sacrament of Marriage is a sin; a person that has extramarital affairs are being adulterous, again a sin; homosexuality is a sin.
Yet, some want to present the view that a monogamous homosexual relationship is just as good as a monogamous heterosexual Marriage.
Though we are all sinners, the Call is to repent and turn back to God.
Maran atha!
Angel
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