Pope Francis on Divorce and Remarriage

[Tigg]

There is a tension that I notice. “I accept the Church’s teachings, but…” But. I am not married, haven’t been, and I don’t pretend to speak for married people. However, what can I say? But what? What further talk is there, doctrinally?

The “but” of which you speak is the boulder blocking the path that will bring peace and blessing.

I’ll be blunt. My heart goes out to the re-married, not only for their individual and difficult situation but for the misunderstanding that has been created as a result of not being able to hear, understand, assimilate or assent to God. There is something bigger here that requires much self-sacrifice in terms of honesty. There is always a consequence of man closing his heart to God - that moment of consent when one chooses to go their own way. Those who try to counsel and offer support in order to bring individuals back to that which they have lost become the enemy because it simply cannot been seen that a full sacramental life must be valued before all else. The choice that has been made to create their situation must be honestly assessed and the question asked “ do I rend my heart and acknowledge my action and trust in the mercy of God,” or do I continue to rail against that which opposes what I want. The question is huge because it implicity says “the laws of God must be changed for my benefit and accommodation be given to my circumstance.”

And as a predictable result, we find it is not only marriage laws that are the impediment, but other infallible Church teachings as well.

 

[SaintAugustine]

There is a tension that I notice. “I accept the Church’s teachings, but…” But. I am not married, haven’t been, and I don’t pretend to speak for married people. However, what can I say? But what? What further talk is there, doctrinally?

The “but” of which you speak is the boulder blocking the path that will bring peace and blessing.

I don’t know if the “I accept the Church’s teaching, but…” comment was in response to my post. If it was, I hope you both realize that the “but” was in regards to recognizing the difficulty of the individual’s situation, not negating Church teaching or blocking any paths.

 

[SaintAugustine]

There is a tension that I notice. “I accept the Church’s teachings, but…” But. I am not married, haven’t been, and I don’t pretend to speak for married people. However, what can I say? But what? What further talk is there, doctrinally?

Doctrinally? Perhaps none. Sometimes, doctrine is the least important part of the discussion.

 

[Tigg]

Doctrinally? Perhaps none. Sometimes, doctrine is the least important part of the discussion.

Just a thought:

Each person finds his good by adherence to God’s plan for him, in order to realize it fully: in this plan, he finds his truth, and through adherence to this truth he becomes free (cf. Jn 8:32). To defend the truth, to articulate it with humility and conviction, and to bear witness to it in life are therefore exacting and indispensable forms of charity…

A Christianity of charity without truth would be more or less interchangeable with a pool of good sentiments, helpful for social cohesion, but of little relevance. In other words, there would no longer be any real place for God in the world.

Caritas in Veritate

 

[sjfrank]

The only salvation for a remarried catholic is to live like brother and sister if an annulment is not possible…correct? What if the decision by the remarried catholic leads to divorce of the second marriage, I would imagine that many men or women who are not catholic would understand or except this outcome. Lets say their are children involved. Children who will no longer be raised by two parents. The remarried catholic get his salvation because he is now not living in sin. But the two young children are not in a stable home. This is the sacrifice Christ would ask? I don’t think so. In this case either their is no forgiveness or their is but the children are the ones who carry the weight of it.

 

[Corki]

The only salvation for a remarried catholic is to live like brother and sister if an annulment is not possible…correct? What if the decision by the remarried catholic leads to divorce of the second marriage, I would imagine that many men or women who are not catholic would understand or except this outcome. Lets say their are children involved. Children who will no longer be raised by two parents. The remarried catholic get his salvation because he is now not living in sin. But the two young children are not in a stable home. This is the sacrifice Christ would ask? I don’t think so. In this case either their is no forgiveness or their is but the children are the ones who carry the weight of it.

The Church can’t prevent everyone who choses to sin from doing so. If someone abandoned his/her family because of this, that would be gravely wrong.

Consider this. The Church considers adultery to be a sin. A man cheats on his wife, is contrite and confesses his sin. He is absolved and then comes clean with his wife. She leaves him even though his sin has been forgiven. The kids suffer. Would you rather the Church declared that adultery is not a sin so as to keep this family together?

 

[SaintAugustine]

Just a thought:

Nice thought…do you have a point with that thought in regards to my posts?

 

[onmyknees]

Posted by Tigg

Just a thought:

Quote:
Each person finds his good by adherence to God’s plan for him, in order to realize it fully: in this plan, he finds his truth, and through adherence to this truth he becomes free (cf. Jn 8:32). To defend the truth, to articulate it with humility and conviction, and to bear witness to it in life are therefore exacting and indispensable forms of charity…

A Christianity of charity without truth would be more or less interchangeable with a pool of good sentiments, helpful for social cohesion, but of little relevance. In other words, there would no longer be any real place for God in the world.

Caritas in Veritate

Beautiful Tigg! Thanks for posting this!

 

[Tigg]

On **giving the Sacraments to remarried divorcees:
**
“This is an ongoing issue. I think this is the time to show mercy. Times have changed and the Church faces many problems, **partly because of the negative testimonies of certain priests. **

It will be interesting to see what develops from this statement and I have said before that I believe the reason so many annulments are granted today is because the Church is well aware of the false teaching that abounded shortly after the council closed and pastorally, something had to be done for those led astray. I remember when these “negative statements” began to circulate. I know because I was witness to quite a bit of it, even though we had an orthodox pastor who did all he could to refute the heresies. A close re-married friend was told she could receive the sacraments because once “love” ended in a marriage it was no longer a sacrament! What terrible confusion reigned then (and still does today) and I recall my astonishment to hear a beloved teaching nun touting Teilhard’s very questionable theories of Christianity and evolution.

The point of the quote from Caritas is that mercy may well be needed, but there is no true charity without truth (truth being the doctrinal dimension that remarried couples seem not to want to hear.) So I’m with the earlier poster who asked what further talk can there be doctrinally? The Church has absolute authority to regulate the sacraments and yet 2,000 years of teaching simply cannot be changed.

 

[Crickabelle]

I am in the process of RCIA. I hope you have patience with my story and I’ll try to be brief.

…

Here I am trying to do everything right… take RCIA, change my faith, do whatever it takes… and sorry, you’re not good enough still. I think this is what Pope Francis understands… is this what Jesus would want about his children? Is this how the father treated his prodigal son? Did he tell him go eat somewhere else?

Ok, whaddyall think?

Dear Cara,
I’ve gone back to the beginning of your posts and can fathom your difficulties. I am only a couple years younger, my children a few years older. Like you, I am a convert to the Catholic faith. I am also familiar with depression and had seriously considered suicide because of the agony I found in my marriage. I have learned that people without first hand experience with the dark pit of depression have difficulty understanding those who have spent time there.

Please be patient with us, collectively. Many of the people responding to your post are men. Men think differently than women. We women tend to look at the whole picture all at once - while men tend to focus on only one issue.

You are more than one issue,

There are some really big things going on with you, way bigger than just marriage.

1. You are a convert. There was no reason in the world for you to look at the Catholic understanding of the matters touching your life. None, until you met this wonderful Catholic gentleman.
2. You have EIGHT suicide attempts under your belt. Eight. That is HUGE. One cannot endure that sort of deep, dark time in the pit of depression / despair without sustaining serious wounds within your soul. Jesus heals and forgives. I believe that I am not alone in praying for your healing and consolation.
3. You have two failed marriages. No one likes to have these on one’s resume - no matter the cause. From a cursory look at you prior posts, there is sufficient reason to hope that these will be found to be annulable - that is, that it is likely that these unions did not constitute sacramental marriages. If / when it is found that there was not sacramental you will be fee to marry.
4. You are in the midst of the annulment process. Re-visiting the details of these past relationships cannot be easy for you. In addition, there is the possibility that it may take several years to be complete. This is a big deal because you’d probably like to be married and get on with life already.

You are one of the millions of souls Pope Francis hopes to address by looking again at the pastoral care of those who have failed marriages in their past. I look forward to seeing what will come in the future. . .but that won’t help you in the here and now.

I would encourage you to be patient during this time of transition. Pray lots. Heaven hears and understands. Learn all that you can in RCIA. Study extra, any topic that piques your interest. Pray before and during study, that the Holy Spirit will bring light. Pray the mass whenever you attend. The mass is a prayer, go with the expectation that God has something especially for you. Trust God. You are loved. Be not surprised when you feel misunderstood. While you wait for the time of your first communion, go through the communion line and receive the blessing of the priest. Make a spiritual union with Christ. The desire you have to receive communion will sustain and strengthen you. It is probable that one who refrains from receiving communion out of regard for the law of the Church actually receives greater graces than one who receives the host casually.

Hold fast in Faith…

Please, everyone who reads this, say a prayer for Cara and all who find themselves in difficult situations.

In Christ,
Kim

 

[Brendan]

The only salvation for a remarried catholic is to live like brother and sister if an annulment is not possible…correct? What if the decision by the remarried catholic leads to divorce of the second marriage, I… In this case either their is no forgiveness or their is but the children are the ones who carry the weight of it.

Christ would ask that the couple submit themselves for that sake of the children (and not the least, the sake of their own souls). If the couple refuse to do that, how would it be the fault of the Church??

 

[SaintAugustine]

Dear Cara,
I’ve gone back to the beginning of your posts and can fathom your difficulties. I am only a couple years younger, my children a few years older. Like you, I am a convert to the Catholic faith. I am also familiar with depression and had seriously considered suicide because of the agony I found in my marriage. I have learned that people without first hand experience with the dark pit of depression have difficulty understanding those who have spent time there.

Please be patient with us, collectively. Many of the people responding to your post are men. Men think differently than women. We women tend to look at the whole picture all at once - while men tend to focus on only one issue.

You are more than one issue,

There are some really big things going on with you, way bigger than just marriage.

1. You are a convert. There was no reason in the world for you to look at the Catholic understanding of the matters touching your life. None, until you met this wonderful Catholic gentleman.
2. You have EIGHT suicide attempts under your belt. Eight. That is HUGE. One cannot endure that sort of deep, dark time in the pit of depression / despair without sustaining serious wounds within your soul. Jesus heals and forgives. I believe that I am not alone in praying for your healing and consolation.
3. You have two failed marriages. No one likes to have these on one’s resume - no matter the cause. From a cursory look at you prior posts, there is sufficient reason to hope that these will be found to be annulable - that is, that it is likely that these unions did not constitute sacramental marriages. If / when it is found that there was not sacramental you will be fee to marry.
4. You are in the midst of the annulment process. Re-visiting the details of these past relationships cannot be easy for you. In addition, there is the possibility that it may take several years to be complete. This is a big deal because you’d probably like to be married and get on with life already.

You are one of the millions of souls Pope Francis hopes to address by looking again at the pastoral care of those who have failed marriages in their past. I look forward to seeing what will come in the future. . .but that won’t help you in the here and now.

I would encourage you to be patient during this time of transition. Pray lots. Heaven hears and understands. Learn all that you can in RCIA. Study extra, any topic that piques your interest. Pray before and during study, that the Holy Spirit will bring light. Pray the mass whenever you attend. The mass is a prayer, go with the expectation that God has something especially for you. Trust God. You are loved. Be not surprised when you feel misunderstood. While you wait for the time of your first communion, go through the communion line and receive the blessing of the priest. Make a spiritual union with Christ. The desire you have to receive communion will sustain and strengthen you. It is probable that one who refrains from receiving communion out of regard for the law of the Church actually receives greater graces than one who receives the host casually.

Hold fast in Faith…

Please, everyone who reads this, say a prayer for Cara and all who find themselves in difficult situations.

In Christ,
Kim

Very well said, Kim. Everyone, please join us in praying for carajentzen, as she goes through this difficult time. With the guidance and grace the Holy Spirit, she will make it through.

 

[JReducation]

Whoa folks!!!

There is no such thing as “the only salvation”. The Church does not subscribe to that idea. Let’s not even go there.

There are ordinary means to salvation, which is following what the Church teaches. However, the Church also teaches that Christ uses extraordinary means to save that we do not know about. The Church does not handcuff God. Please read the entire section on salvation in the CCC.

We can tell people that the most certain way to salvation is following the map that the Church gives them. We can’t tell them that it’s the only way to salvation. The Church does not say this. The Church extends her graces as far as God’s mercy will allow and we have no idea how far that is.

We must present a balanced theology, not one that allows free passes, nor one that leads people to despair.

 

[SaintAugustine]

Whoa folks!!!

There is no such thing as “the only salvation”. The Church does not subscribe to that idea. Let’s not even go there.

There are ordinary means to salvation, which is following what the Church teaches. However, the Church also teaches that Christ uses extraordinary means to save that we do not know about. The Church does not handcuff God. Please read the entire section on salvation in the CCC.

We can tell people that the most certain way to salvation is following the map that the Church gives them. We can’t tell them that it’s the only way to salvation. The Church does not say this. The Church extends her graces as far as God’s mercy will allow and we have no idea how far that is.

We must present a balanced theology, not one that allows free passes, nor one that leads people to despair.

 

[sw85]

Whoa folks!!!

There is no such thing as “the only salvation”. The Church does not subscribe to that idea. Let’s not even go there.

There are ordinary means to salvation, which is following what the Church teaches. However, the Church also teaches that Christ uses extraordinary means to save that we do not know about. The Church does not handcuff God. Please read the entire section on salvation in the CCC.

We can tell people that the most certain way to salvation is following the map that the Church gives them. We can’t tell them that it’s the only way to salvation. The Church does not say this. The Church extends her graces as far as God’s mercy will allow and we have no idea how far that is.

We must present a balanced theology, not one that allows free passes, nor one that leads people to despair.

Right. I said in an older thread recently that people run into problems by interpreting EENS in a mincing, minimalist sort of manner rather than the proper, Catholic understanding of fulfillment. It is possible to be saved outside the Church but that doesn’t mean that salvation outside the Church is ideal or the norm. Likewise it is possible to live life without arms but it does not follow that arms are irrelevant to my life or that I’d be just as well without them. Rather EENS means that as I “approach” salvation I am drawn more deeply into the life of the Church, and that, while its possible for an ignorant pagan on a desert island to be saved, the archetype of salvation is still the devoted Catholic saint who lived a life of heroic virtue and died a martyr.

 

[JReducation]

Right. I said in an older thread recently that people run into problems by interpreting EENS in a mincing, minimalist sort of manner rather than the proper, Catholic understanding of fulfillment. It is possible to be saved outside the Church but that doesn’t mean that salvation outside the Church is ideal or the norm. Likewise it is possible to live life without arms but it does not follow that arms are irrelevant to my life or that I’d be just as well without them. Rather EENS means that as I “approach” salvation I am drawn more deeply into the life of the Church, and that, while its possible for an ignorant pagan on a desert island to be saved, the archetype of salvation is still the devoted Catholic saint who lived a life of heroic virtue and died a martyr.

This is why I insist that you look good in grey.

This is very true. EENS says that there is no salvation outside the Church. However, if we read what the CCC says, it repeats EENS and then unwraps it like one does to an onion.

All salvation comes into the world through the Church. One will not find salvation from any other source. However, many are saved who are not physically part of the Church, because the Church, like her Master is human and divine. Humanly speaking, she is limited to time and space. The ordinary thing is for people to be Catholic.

Spiritually or divinely speaking, she is not limited to time and space. We know this, because we profess to believe in “one catholic (universal) church”. We profess to believe in a Church Triumphant. The saints are very much a part of the Church, but they are no longer physically part of the Church. This means that the Church extends beyond time and space to include others.

Who does she include? She includes many people whom we would never suspect. It is not we, human beings who decide how far and wide the Church can reach. Only Christ can decide this, because this is his body.

Our mission is to pray for those who do not know the Church, that they will come to know her and to do penance for those who knowing the Church do not do penance for their sins. That’s why God raised up the Franciscan Order of Penance. We do penance for these folks who do not use the ordinary means to salvation. Why do we do this? We know that if we do such penances, Christ will apply them to those who need them outside of the physical Church.

How, when, and to what degree, who knows?

Never, never close off the doors to salvation. Only God can close those doors.

 

[Tomdstone]

All salvation comes into the world through the Church. One will not find salvation from any other source.

Does this then contradict what Cardinal Kasper has said: “The Church believes that Judaism, i.e., the faithful response of the Jewish people to God’s irrevocable Covenant, is salvific for them”

 

[SaintAugustine]

Does this then contradict what Cardinal Kasper has said: “The Church believes that Judaism, i.e., the faithful response of the Jewish people to God’s irrevocable Covenant, is salvific for them”

Nope.

839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. **To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”
**
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[JReducation]

Does this then contradict what Cardinal Kasper has said: “The Church believes that Judaism, i.e., the faithful response of the Jewish people to God’s irrevocable Covenant, is salvific for them”

Nope.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t know if this has been brought up yet.

[Vatican disapproves of policy allowing divorced/remarried Catholics to receive Communion in German archdiocese](Vatican disapproves of policy allowing divorced/remarried Catholics to receive Communion in German archdiocese)