Pope Francis on Divorce and Remarriage

[Starsweeper]

This seems to be right in line with the Winnipeg statement, which was an official statement of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops.

I don’t want to get into a rip roaring debate on birth control, but are you really trying to argue that official, magisterial Catholic teaching is something that’s other than what’s in Humanae Vitae? The Catholic Church has been uber clear where it stands on contraception, it’s in the catechism.

 

[FAB]

We need to look at what the Pope means by “mercy”
I work on both end of marriage, prepartion before and unfortunatly, annulments as well. The processes of annulment can be long, I believe on aspect of this is for tribunal to stream line th process and to be “mercifuful” in their decision, meaning that there are a multitude of reasons why the marrige was not valid from the begining and these should be looked for.
The other part of this is a pastoral approach to those who are divorced. There are far to many people who leave the Church after a divorce believing that somehow they have been excommunicated. We do need to reach out to these indivduals and let them know this is not the case and if they have remarried, that they are not to branded as ‘Sinners’. They still need to be welcomed in the church and help given to them to come back into communion with the church.
In the united states we have become more pastoral in both these repects, even though the process of the annulment is far to long. Other counties have not become as enlighted, often refusing any help to those who have divorced and remarried.

Deacon Frank

 

[Just_Lurking]

I don’t want to get into a rip roaring debate on birth control, but are you really trying to argue that official, magisterial Catholic teaching is something that’s other than what’s in Humanae Vitae? The Catholic Church has been uber clear where it stands on contraception, it’s in the catechism.

No. I’m trying to argue that it’s a bit hypocritical to be faulting Orthodox priests for allowing married couples to use contraception when the majority of Catholic priests do the same.

 

[Starsweeper]

No. I’m trying to argue that it’s a bit hypocritical to be faulting Orthodox priests for allowing married couples to use contraception when the majority of Catholic priests do the same.

Not really. You’re comparing apples to oranges here. Priests are not the church. The Church and the magisterium are the Church. I don’t care about what individuals do, individuals are sinners and nobody ever said priests were perfect. The Orthodox allow contraception and it’s not like it’s some dirty little secret. They openly say they do on their official websites. The catechism of the Catholic Church does not. So there is a difference on a doctrinal level, not a human one.

 

[McCall1981]

Maybe we should wait and see what the Pope & commission discuss before we go into panic mode?

Hey, I’ve been in complete panic mode for six months straight now, and you can’t stop me

Does anyone detect a hint of something **much larger **going on in the Pope’s recent statements? It seems that perhaps (and I mean perhaps) the time of mercy is coming to an end. Recall Saint Faustina’s Diary…the time/day of Mercy is not infinite.

It would seem to me that if the end of the day/time of mercy is somewhat near, then everyone, including the Pope, should be trying to get as close to Lord as they can–no matter how imperfectly. In other words, maybe we all need to start clinging to the Lord’s Divine Mercy immediately, because after the day/time of the Lord’s Mercy, comes the time/day of His justice.

Just my personal guess…might mean nothing.

I suppose I feel the most important sentence was: “I think the time for mercy has come as John Paul II predicted by introducing the Feast of Divine Mercy.”

This is interesting, I hadn’t thought of it that way. I don’t think that this is what he meant, or that this is happening, but I kind of wish it was. It’s encouraging to think of it this way. Who knows?

 

[maklavan]

We do not know when the end of the time of Divine Mercy will come, any more than we know when the second Coming will be, What we are seeing here is the work of a man who has no regard for clericalism or legalism,and who is prepared to wield the axe to the roots. I sensed this at the moment he appeared on the balcony for the first time.He seems to make his starting point,"What would Jesus say, what would Jesus do?!

 

[maklavan]

I never said God wanted her to stay with him. But then, neither of us two know what God wants. Excuse me, the Church is an infallible institution, in the proper sense of the term. If the Church grants an annulment, the matter is settled. If she doesn’t, the marriage was valid. That’s all it’s about.

There was a time when annulments were being thrown about like confetti in the USA and Pope John Paul 2 was tearing his hair out.Annulments have often come down to money or influence. To think otherwise is too simplistic.

 

[Tony_Micelli]

I have to admit that the biggest difference between the orthodox view of divorce and remarriage (up to 3X with bishops permission) and the catholic practice of granting annulments is mostly semantic. Nobody really knows except God if a marriage is “valid”. One could say that living out a marriage until death is a sign of its validity. Same can be said with contraception-that it isn’t good but may be tolerated in mariage out of recognition of human weakness. I think the catholic view is better thought out but the orthodox view certainly recognizes human weakness and the mystery of sacraments.

 

[Tony_Micelli]

No. I’m trying to argue that it’s a bit hypocritical to be faulting Orthodox priests for allowing married couples to use contraception when the majority of Catholic priests do the same.

I think the orthodox would concede that contraception is wrong however they acknowledge human weakness and permit barrier methods within marriage under the direction of thier spiritual father. Not saying this approach is not without problems, but at least it’s a reasonable solution to the difficulties associated with preventing conception within marriage.

 

[Khalid]

I certainly hope not given some of the decisions made in the past… anti-Semitism, the Inquisition, the Crusades.

The Inquisitions, plural, were not a bad institution. The Spanish Inquisition (one of many) got, according to some (Peters argues against this view, and I agree with him; Kamen seems to agree) a bit out of hand after the Reconquista, for the sole reason of the Reconquista (many crypto-Muslims and conversos left). The Roman Inquisition (the other major Inquisition) never got out of hand, and quietly transformed. (Edward Peters, Inquisition, and Henry Kamen, The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision).

The Crusades (speaking of the first Crusades, which established and defended the Crusader Kingdoms, until the fall of Acre, and excluding the later “crusades”, such as the Albigensian) were just wars of defense, some of the most just wars that have ever been fought by humanity, with a surprisingly very small number of atrocities (all wars have some atrocities committed by both sides: the Crusades are stunning in how few atrocities there are, for the scale of war that it was, in the age it was. These atrocities were in the worst, two: the sack of Constantinople, and the murder of Jews by the People’s Crusade under Peter the Hermit.

The later so-called “Crusades”, such as the Albigensian, which took as their enemy European heretics, instead of Arab Mahometan invaders and aggressors, were not just. They were wrong. But look at it from the point of view of the authorities, in a time when revolt against religion (especially for a decidedly anti-social and utopianist religion such as Catharism) was also a revolt against the civil order and government, and there are found mitigating circumstances (Edward Peters, Heresy and Authority in Mediaeval Europe).

The last one there brings me to the conclusion that it was not the Crusade that caused Peter Hermit and Walter Penniless to murder Jews, it was anti-Semitism that did: and anti-Semitism (as in “hatred of ethnic Jews”, not as some Muslims claim to be Semites, or a belief the Jewish religion is in error) is never acceptable (for salvation comes by the Jews, and to them were entrusted the oracles of God, and theirs are the Patriarchs and the promise according to the flesh) and, is, even I will admit, a dark and recurring undercurrent in the Church’s history.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

The Inquisitions, plural, were not a bad institution. The Spanish Inquisition (one of many) got, according to some (Peters argues against this view, and I agree with him; Kamen seems to agree) a bit out of hand after the Reconquista, for the sole reason of the Reconquista (many crypto-Muslims and conversos left). The Roman Inquisition (the other major Inquisition) never got out of hand, and quietly transformed. (Edward Peters, Inquisition, and Henry Kamen, The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision).

The Crusades (speaking of the first Crusades, which established and defended the Crusader Kingdoms, until the fall of Acre, and excluding the later “crusades”, such as the Albigensian) were just wars of defense, some of the most just wars that have ever been fought by humanity, with a surprisingly very small number of atrocities (all wars have some atrocities committed by both sides: the Crusades are stunning in how few atrocities there are, for the scale of war that it was, in the age it was. These atrocities were in the worst, two: the sack of Constantinople, and the murder of Jews by the People’s Crusade under Peter the Hermit.

The later so-called “Crusades”, such as the Albigensian, which took as their enemy European heretics, instead of Arab Mahometan invaders and aggressors, were not just. They were wrong. But look at it from the point of view of the authorities, in a time when revolt against religion (especially for a decidedly anti-social and utopianist religion such as Catharism) was also a revolt against the civil order and government, and there are found mitigating circumstances (Edward Peters, Heresy and Authority in Mediaeval Europe).

The last one there brings me to the conclusion that it was not the Crusade that caused Peter Hermit and Walter Penniless to murder Jews, it was anti-Semitism that did: and anti-Semitism (as in “hatred of ethnic Jews”, not as some Muslims claim to be Semites, or a belief the Jewish religion is in error) is never acceptable (for salvation comes by the Jews, and to them were entrusted the oracles of God, and theirs are the Patriarchs and the promise according to the flesh) and, is, even I will admit, a dark and recurring undercurrent in the Church’s history.

Hmmmm…interesting…

 

[Khalid]

Hmmmm…interesting…

Ayn Rand was not a philosopher!

 

[TimSpalding]

The whole topic of the Orthodox/pre-schism eastern conception of “economy” and remarriage brings up the deep question, namely:

What is a Catholic to “do” with “Eastern” theology?

This comes up again and again today, and I’m not convinced the varying reactions are defensible.

1. On the question of married priests–a long-standing, ancient practices of equally apostolic churches—the Roman church now expresses of it as an organizational, not doctrinal, issue.
2. On the question of remarriage and women deacons, however, the same logic has generally been under great suspicion. (Pope Francis mentioned the former just now, and it was pretty bracing to hear.)
3. On the question of Petrine office, the logic is denied—the East was and is wrong, and the West right, whatever organizational concessions the West may grant in the event of reunion.

Number three seems the easiest to explain—the church had a number of councils on the topic, and they trump whatever Latins or Greeks thought before. The varied responses to #1 and #2 are more problematic.

 

[Starsweeper]

I think the orthodox would concede that contraception is wrong however they acknowledge human weakness and permit barrier methods within marriage under the direction of thier spiritual father. Not saying this approach is not without problems, but at least it’s a reasonable solution to the difficulties assocPoison, with preventing conception within marriage.

No, they don’t concede that contraception is wrong within a marriage. I’m not entirely sure where Catholics get these ideas, but I’ve linked to official Orthodox church teaching that says that non abortifacient forms of birth control are morally ok under a new consensus. I’m not casting aspersions here, Catholics and Orthodox have a different viewpoint on this one.

Another point, I don’t quite understand allowing things you know are wrong for the faithful as a concession to human weakness. The way I see it, is that if birth control is bad and sinful for married couples, then why would you allow it? Why not allow all sorts of things, even abortion for rape cases, for the sake of “human weakness”? Something is either poison or it’s not.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Ayn Rand was not a philosopher!

 

[irishpatrick]

Hey, I’ve been in complete panic mode for six months straight now, and you can’t stop me

This is interesting, I hadn’t thought of it that way. I don’t think that this is what he meant, or that this is happening, but I kind of wish it was. It’s encouraging to think of it this way. Who knows?

Of course, none of us knows for sure, and we are all basically guessing with our opinions. However, it seems to me that since the Lord told Saint Faustina to prepare the world for His Second Coming, and since that does not seem like a directive that is meant to last for 1,000 years, and since Pope John Paul II instituted Divine Mercy Sunday just 13 years ago, and considering the that Pope John Paul II died on the Vigil of Divine Mercy Sunday, and considering that Jesus asked for the Feast Day to be instituted every Sunday after Easter, and since Pope Francis has now referenced those same realities…it does make me wonder if the time of the Lord’s Mercy is coming to a close.

Perhaps, in connection with this thread topic, the Holy Father is trying to get more people to cling to Divine Mercy (no matter their sins or status in life), so that more souls can be saved during this time of mercy–for at some time in the future this age of Divine Mercy will come to a close, and it will be followed by a time of justice.

I also cannot help thinking about Our Lady of Fatima when she said: Pray! Pray a great deal and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to Hell for not having someone to pray and make sacrifices for them.

We should be attaching ourselves to the Lord’s Mercy, and we should be praying for everyone we know, and pray with a personal and abiding trusting faith…and we should pray for all souls across the world.

 

[AnneTeresa]

Hi everyone,

At World Youth Day, Pope Francis gave an interview where he hinted at that he liked the Orthodox Church’s teaching allowing divorce and remarriage. Is it possible that the Catholic Church could allow divorce and remarriage? Is that a changeable teaching? I like Pope Francis but this statement makes me feel nervous that there is a sea change coming-

On giving the Sacraments to remarried divorcees
“This is an ongoing issue. I think this is the time to show mercy. Times have changed and the Church faces many problems, partly because of the negative testimonies of certain priests. Clericalism has caused a lot of wounds and these wounds need to be healed with mercy. The Church is a mother and in the Church we need to be merciful towards everyone. We shouldn’t just wait for the wounded to come to us, we need to go out and search for them. I think the time for mercy has come as John Paul II predicted by introducing the Feast of Divine Mercy. Divorced people can take communion, it is those who have divorced and remarried that cannot. Here I must add that the orthodox follow the theology of economics and allow second marriages. When the commission of eight cardinals meets at the beginning of October we will discuss how to proceed. The Church is taking a very close look at pastoral initiatives for marriage. My predecessor in Buenos Aires, Cardinal Quarracino always used to say: “I consider half of today’s marriages to be invalid because people get married without realising it means forever. They do it out of social convenience, etc…” The issue of invalidity needs to be looked into as well.”

vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/gmg-26831//pag/2/

Thanks be to God! I am so happy the church is going to look at this. I LOVE our Pope’s insistence on mercy and pastoral initiatives. This is SO sorely needed. I say this as one who came back to the catholic church in an irregular marriage and has been through the mill with it.

 

[TheAdvocate]

No, they don’t concede that contraception is wrong within a marriage. I’m not entirely sure where Catholics get these ideas, but I’ve linked to official Orthodox church teaching that says that non abortifacient forms of birth control are morally ok under a new consensus. I’m not casting aspersions here, Catholics and Orthodox have a different viewpoint on this one.

Another point, I don’t quite understand allowing things you know are wrong for the faithful as a concession to human weakness. The way I see it, is that if birth control is bad and sinful for married couples, then why would you allow it? Why not allow all sorts of things, even abortion for rape cases, for the sake of “human weakness”? Something is either poison or it’s not.

This is not a thread on contraception. Pope Francis has not said anything about contraception. He has indicated that the annulment process will be reevaluated and studied.

 

[AnneTeresa]

I do not see how the Church could ever allow divorced (not annulled) and “remarried” people to receive Holy Communion. Marriage is ALWAYS public in nature and “divorce” is ALWAYS public in nature. Therefore I do not understand how this could ever not satisfy the requirements of denial of Communion to Catholics persisting in grave, public sin.

If anyone would like to put forth a well-reasoned argument, go for it.

Maybe that’s because you are young and did not grow up with poor teaching on what marriage as a sacrament is and what it means, and then were held responsible later by a church that failed to teach you correctly in the first place. There is a GREAT need for mercy for people in those circumstances which some people fail to recognize because they didn’t grow up in that era or in a place where that was the case. I say that because when I’ve posted similar things here someone always jumps in to say it wasn’t like that for them. Well that is great, but it was like that for some other people. It has chased many people from the catholic church. It is a sad situation all around. I am glad the pope recognizes that. One of the problems is with people who divorced/remarried years and years ago and come back to the church now. It’s really not “public” sin in that case anymore. No one knows or remembers what happened back then. In addition, the whole annulment issue needs to be re-addressed. It is administered so differently in different areas and is a huge block for many people who would otherwise return to church.

 

[irishpatrick]

Maybe that’s because you are young and did not grow up with poor teaching on what marriage as a sacrament is and what it means, and then were held responsible later by a church that failed to teach you correctly in the first place. There is a GREAT need for mercy for people in those circumstances which some people fail to recognize because they didn’t grow up in that era or in a place where that was the case. I say that because when I’ve posted similar things here someone always jumps in to say it wasn’t like that for them. Well that is great, but it was like that for some other people. It has chased many people from the catholic church. It is a sad situation all around. I am glad the pope recognizes that. One of the problems is with people who divorced/remarried years and years ago and come back to the church now. It’s really not “public” sin in that case anymore. No one knows or remembers what happened back then. In addition, the whole annulment issue needs to be re-addressed. It is administered so differently in different areas and is a huge block for many people who would otherwise return to church.

We must be careful assuming things about the Pope said…he is still the Pope. We must also be careful to assume something is not sinful just because someone was not taught properly. Most Catholics have learned that divorce and remarriage cannot happen without an annulment.

I think the Pope is attempting to encourage people to access the Lord’s Mercy before it is too late to do so…for the Lord is merciful. The Pope is NOT rewriting Church teachings. Truth is still truth.

Recall how the crowd of people left Jesus after His Bread of Life discourse…Jesus did not change His teachings to fit their desires or lack of understanding. Truth is truth–and truth is a Divine person, Jesus Christ.