Pope Francis on we are all children of God yet the bible says only those who believe in Christ are

[christismylord]

Nor does Paul make the statement that faith plus works in that passage result in justification.

The phrase “faith plus works” is an interesting way of putting it. I prefer the statement “faith plus obedience.” And besides, “charity is simply operative faith; faith in action.” (@EndTimes )

James 4:17 “If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.”

1 Thessalonians 5:19 “Do not quench the Spirit.”

We are justified by faith, sanctified by obedience, and saved by grace. God, by His grace, provides us opportunities to sanctify ourselves and become more Christ-like by doing good works and obeying His commands. If one were to know the good they ought to do, and does not do it, but quenches the Holy Spirit’s urgings, for them this is sin. Works apart from Christ, (or for those who do not know Him yet will be saved: Works apart from following the conscience and wholeheartedly serving their idea of Truth) are useless. But when joined with God’s Grace, little acts of love have great power.

 

[Hodos]

The phrase “faith plus works” is an interesting way of putting it. I prefer the statement “faith plus obedience.” And besides, “charity is simply operative faith; faith in action.” (@EndTimes )

James 4:17 “If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.”

1 Thessalonians 5:19 “Do not quench the Spirit.”

I would say that works are the result of faith. However, works do not result in justification. As Paul demonstrates our justification is by faith apart from works. I would agree with your statement that charity is operative faith, I think that is a good way of putting it (assuming you are not putting your faith in your works for the purpose of justification before God). When we make the statement about being justified by faith apart from works, it is highlighting the causal relationships. I do not rely on my works for my salvation, that would be placing my faith in me. I place my faith in my savior, and through faith, I understand my place as a new man, and my works follow (this is the process of sanctification). I believe our confessional documents do a good job highlighting this important distinction (Augsburg Confession, Paragraphs IV and VI).

But when joined with God’s Grace, little acts of love have great power.

Agreed. The question when you make this statement is to do what? They have great power, but not for the purpose of justification, but for the purpose of serving our neighbor and providing a witness of Christ to our neighbor. If we keep that distinction straight then we are on the same page.

 

[EndTimes]

I think you are quite confused. I have already said that we are justified by grace through faith.

OK… And… How 'bout this… Are we in agreement?
For - This from James also dovetails with all of what
Jesus speaks of re: God’s Criteria at Judgement
as well as - the How we Inherit Eternal Life

Faith and Deeds​

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[Hodos]

OK… And… How 'bout this… Are we in agreement?
For - This from James also dovetails with all of what
Jesus speaks of re: God’s Criteria at Judgement
as well as - the How we Inherit Eternal Life

For some reason when I was responding to someone else it tagged you. The post above was meant for christismylord. I think yesterday I was going to reply to you and didn’t get around to it. So when I opened up a reply for someone else it tagged you by mistake. You have confused me by your statements because it appears you will respond to contradict me but when I read your statement you are essentially agreeing with me. Your verbiage is just a bit confusing.

 

[EndTimes]

For some reason when I was responding to someone else it tagged you. The post above was meant for christismylord. I think yesterday I was going to reply to you and didn’t get around to it. So when I opened up a reply for someone else it tagged you by mistake. You have confused me by your statements because it appears you will respond to contradict me but when I read your statement you are essentially agreeing with me. Your verbiage is just a bit confusing.

Got it… And thanks… Your prior response confused me as well.

I’m well aware that my verbiage could use some improvement
My brother used to tell me that I must have attended the Dwight Frye School of Grammar…

Peace…

 

[nicholasG]

We are all children of God. Period. The atheist, pagan, Jew and Muslim are all children of God, just like Christians. Whether any of them are saved is a question only God can answer, including as to the Christian.

Well said!. This is what Christianity is all about.

 

[christismylord]

I would say that works are the result of faith.

Yes. James 2:22: “You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.” Faith is completed by works.

However, works do not result in justification.

Yes I agree. Justification is by Jesus’s sacrifice and our faith in Him. Then works result from love of God and surrendering to the ways of the Holy Spirit and contribute to sanctification, the lifelong process of becoming holier and more Christ-like.

As Paul demonstrates our justification is by faith apart from works.

Paul is talking about Jewish Law; Old Testament Law, not good works. Romans 3:28 says “For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law” (not talking of charity or suffering joined with Christ, but of Jewish Laws) However, yes we are justified by faith and His sacrifice, and further sanctified by obedience.

(assuming you are not putting your faith in your works for the purpose of justification before God).

That would be idolizing one’s actions and having a false perception that one has the ability to be saved by their own merit.

“All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.“ (Isaiah 64:6)

Yes works not done of faith and love are useless. Suffering not joined with Christ’s is pointless. Our actions and lifestyle only have saving value when joined with faith and Christ’s purpose. I think we agree, maybe my wording could be misinterpreted, apologies.

 

[christismylord]

TMC:

We are all children of God. Period. The atheist, pagan, Jew and Muslim are all children of God, just like Christians. Whether any of them are saved is a question only God can answer, including as to the Christian.

Well said!. This is what Christianity is all about

Then how do you explain John 1:12–13, which states, " But to all who did receive him (Jesus), who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

 

[EndTimes]

Only those who by baptism (baptism either by water, blood, or desire) are children of God

And God knows - whom are born by desire -

 

[Hodos]

Yes. James 2:22: “You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.” Faith is completed by works.

Fine with this.

Yes I agree. Justification is by Jesus’s sacrifice and our faith in Him. Then works result from love of God and surrendering to the ways of the Holy Spirit and contribute to sanctification, the lifelong process of becoming holier and more Christ-like.

Fine with this.

Paul is talking about Jewish Law; Old Testament Law, not good works. Romans 3:28 says “For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law ” (not talking of charity or suffering joined with Christ, but of Jewish Laws) However, yes we are justified by faith and His sacrifice, and further sanctified by obedience.

The evidence provided in Chapter 2 and 3 demonstrates otherwise. In Chapter 2 Paul states that when Gentiles (a people who do not follow the ceremonial requirements of the law to include participating in the sacrificial system of Temple worship and circumcision) do by nature the requirements of the law they prove that the requirements of the law is written on their hearts. At the same time, Paul uses the law to condemn the Jews, who are actually keeping the ceremonial requirements of the law to include circumcision and sacrifice. We know this because Paul speaks about the fact that their disobedience becomes uncircumcision. So it is pretty obvious from the context here that Paul is not merely referring to being justified by the ceremonial and sacrificial requirements of the law, rather he is condemning the Jews for violation of the moral requirements of the law. So when Paul speaks of being justified by faith apart from works of the law, Paul is not merely referring to the Mosaic ceremonial requirements, but to the moral law which supposedly both groups, Jew and Gentile are held accountable to. We also see this later on in Romans 7 when Paul speaks about the continuing work of the law which is to condemn sin, not just for him but for Gentiles also. Therefore, I see no evidence that when Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works of the law, that he means we are really justified by works done in charity as opposed to some other motivation. Paul has not even hinted so up to this point. The point of Romans 1-2-3.5 is to condemn all men through the law (Luther’s 2nd use of the law if you are interested) that we might be justified by faith in Christ.

 

[EndTimes]

At the same time, Paul uses the law to condemn the Jews,

Being a Jew himself,
Paul no more actually condemned Jews
than say did God when He punished some from time to time.

Paul attempts to Teach some Jews the limits wrt Salvation - wrt Mosaic Law
especially in connection with the Leadership who DisObeyed Moses…

_

 

[Hodos]

Being a Jew himself,
Paul no more actually condemned Jews
than say did God when He punished some from time to time.

You appear to respond to one part of my argument while ignoring the other. When you say Paul didn’t condemn the Jews, he certainly did:

But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, [ 18 ]and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, [ 19 ]and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, [ 20 ]a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, [ 21 ]you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? [ 22 ]You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? [ 23 ]You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? [ 24 ]THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU,” just as it is written.

[ 25 ]For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. [ 26 ]So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? [ 27 ]And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? [ 28 ]For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. [ 29 ]But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God…

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; [ 20 ]because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

The point of Romans 1:18-3:20 is that the Jews and Gentiles alike are condemned under the law because they are all alike lawbreakers. When I say that Paul condemned the Jews, it is in the context that all men are universally condemned under the law, and the Jews are not exempt from that.

Paul attempts to Teach some Jews the limits wrt Salvation - wrt Mosaic Law
especially in connection with the Leadership who DisObeyed Moses…

Not sure what wrt salvation or wrt Mosaic law means. These phrases are confusing as they are not defined.

 

[christismylord]

that we might be justified by faith in Christ.

We are justified by faith, sanctified by works/obedience. If Paul was saying obedience/works are completely unnecessary, how do you explain

(James 2:17) “In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”

(James 2:20) “You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?”

(James 4:17) “If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.”

(John 15:2) “He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.”

(Matthew 17:19) “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

(Matthew 25:18, 26-30) 18 “But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.” 26 “ His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.” “So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

(Matthew 25:34-36) “ Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Notice He talks of the works they did)

Or does Scripture contradict itself?

 

[christismylord]

(Galatians 3:2-3) “Now I Paul say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law.”

(Galatians 5:2-6) “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness (Greek work dikaiosoune, meaning justification). For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.“

Paul clearly talks of Jewish Law.

 

[EndTimes]

You appear to respond to one part of my argument while ignoring the other. When you say Paul didn’t condemn the Jews, he certainly did:

“appear” is the operative word.
Since Paul never “condemned” Jews - to claim - even in part that Paul did? Is False.
Understand … Condemned means Judging someone soul to Hell.
Perhaps you meant something different?

 

[Hodos]

We are justified by faith, sanctified by works/obedience. If Paul was saying obedience/works are completely unnecessary, how do you explain

If you read my response you will see that I did not say that works aren’t necessary, in fact, I said they are necessary. The question that was asked is what they are necessary for. Paul has already stated they are not necessary for justification. They are necessary though in the sanctified life of the believer for the benefit of our neighbor.

Or does Scripture contradict itself?

No, scripture does not contradict itself. However, the person who pits Paul’s formula of justification against any form of works based righteousness will create a contradiction that does not exist.

 

[TULIPed]

Paul’s speaking to Jews - bound by Mosaic laws…

I think you should perhaps have a look at the commentary on this passage by the USCCB here (as the Bishops disagree with you me thinks):

Romans, CHAPTER 3 | USCCB

Here’s a quote regarding to whom Paul is speaking in Romans 3:

• [3:19] The law: Paul here uses the term in its broadest sense to mean all of the scriptures; none of the preceding texts is from the Torah or Pentateuch.
• [3:20] No human being will be justified in his sight: these words are freely cited from Ps 143:2. In place of the psalmist’s “no living person,” Paul substitutes “no human being” (literally “no flesh,” a Hebraism), and he adds “by observing the law.”
• [3:21–31] These verses provide a clear statement of Paul’s “gospel,” i.e., the principle of justification by faith in Christ. God has found a means of rescuing humanity from its desperate plight: Paul’s general term for this divine initiative is the righteousness of God (Rom 3:21). Divine mercy declares the guilty innocent and makes them so. God does this not as a result of the law but apart from it (Rom 3:21), and not because of any merit in human beings but through forgiveness of their sins (Rom 3:24), in virtue of the redemption wrought in Christ Jesus for all who believe (Rom 3:22, 24–25). God has manifested his righteousness in the coming of Jesus Christ, whose saving activity inaugurates a new era in human history.strong text

Paul’s point in Romans 1-3 is to loop everybody in the trap. The “law” is universal - at least according to the USCCB (with whom I wholeheartedly agree).

 

[EndTimes]

I think you should perhaps have a look at the commentary on this passage by the USCCB here (as the Bishops disagree with you me thinks):

I’m pleased you said - methinks…

Plus the USCCB does not possess the Authority of Paul/Scriptures/CatholicChurch…

It’s overwhelming clear that Paul’s speaking to Jews about Mosaic laws/works versus Faith
and how Faith in Jesus IS THE Way to Salvation…

Of Which, obeying Mosaic laws/works/deeds,
have naught to do with the deeds which emerge from Faith
- by which God shall reward us in accordance to.

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels
and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds,
and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

IF you’ve Faith - then go directly to the Source and allow God to assist you in fully understanding Rom 3

ABRIDGED

1. Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
2. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
3. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.