Pope Francis' Overtures To Protestants

[PJH_74]

My spouse is actually a Lutheran Pastor and I agree with you many things that happened in the past are over with and need no further exploration. Of course, as you mentioned, not everyone remembers that. I for one am more than glad to see the Pope now as in previous Popes make such out reaches. Probably what rankles some here also is that this celebration has also been accompanied but further declarations of what is similar in doctrine.

 

[Saxum]

Probably what rankles some here also is that this celebration has also been accompanied but further declarations of what is similar in doctrine.

I’ll explain why I am rankled. I really believe that Our Lord Jesus founded one Church on the rock of Peter. I believe in everything that the Church teaches. That’s why I think it’s uncharitable to behave as if the protestant sects are equal to the Church; I think its uncharitable to tell protestants that there is a value in a movement that created a new religion based on a misinterpretation of the Bible and on the false belief that one can be saved by Faith alone. Souls are at stake and we must tell the separated brethren the truth.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

PJH_74:

Probably what rankles some here also is that this celebration has also been accompanied but further declarations of what is similar in doctrine.

I’ll explain why I am rankled. I really believe that Our Lord Jesus founded one Church on the rock of Peter. I believe in everything that the Church teaches. That’s why I think it’s uncharitable to behave as if the protestant sects are equal to the Church; I think its uncharitable to tell protestants that there is a value in a movement that created a new religion based on a misinterpretation of the Bible and on the false belief that one can be saved by Faith alone. Souls are at stake and we must tell the separated brethren the truth.

Sounds to me as if you are really in disagreement with your popes on a matter of faith and doctrine. Mass in the vernacular was an explicit aim of V2. You are also supposed to follow the lead of your leaders, which you obviously refuse to do. Sorry you reject your church’s teaching. You have no credibility with me going forward. I probably won’t read any more of your posts.

 

[PJH_74]

I’ll explain why I am rankled. I really believe that Our Lord Jesus founded one Church on the rock of Peter. I believe in everything that the Church teaches. That’s why I think it’s uncharitable to behave as if the protestant sects are equal to the Church; I think its uncharitable to tell protestants that there is a value in a movement that created a new religion based on a misinterpretation of the Bible and on the false belief that one can be saved by Faith alone. Souls are at stake and we must tell the separated brethren the truth.

I’m not sure what you mean by souls being at stake. The Catholic Church recognizes salvation though many other churches, though maybe not as an equal. Protestant baptisms, the Christian initiation rite, are as valid as a Catholic one in the eyes of the Church. I can understand that this is something you can rightfully can dislike, no one is forcing you to like the Reformation, but there has been many ecumenical accords being struck over the last few decades. This IS Catholic teaching . I think a larger issue before us is the disillusionment people have with Christianity. Certainly you have less issue with a Protestant than with one who has no belief at all?

 

[RandomAlias]

Some people have been brought to faith by Protestant evangelists. Surely some have been saved. The Lord has brought about much good from the adversity of the Reformation, and it ain’t over yet.

We don’t have to group-hug our Protestant brethren or agree on every point. To paraphrase Pope Francis, we can meet them where they are and walk with them on the Way.

 

[Saxum]

Sounds to me as if you are really in disagreement with your popes on a matter of faith and doctrine. Mass in the vernacular was an explicit aim of V2. You are also supposed to follow the lead of your leaders, which you obviously refuse to do. Sorry you reject your church’s teaching. You have no credibility with me going forward. I probably won’t read any more of your posts.

Vatican II mandated that Latin was to remain in force:

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

The above quotation is taken from Sacrosanctum Concilium - the Vatican II document on the Liturgy.

Also, the use of the vernacular is not a matter of faith and doctrine. It’s a small ‘t’ tradition that can be changed.

As far as your opinions on my credibility, I’m really not bothered what you or anybody else thinks. Everything I’ve written here is orthodox and will be understood as such by those who have an understanding of the Catholic Faith.

 

[Saxum]

I’m not sure what you mean by souls being at stake. The Catholic Church recognizes salvation though many other churches, though maybe not as an equal.

I agree with what you’ve written but I’d be more nuanced in how you express this. The Church recognises that Our Lord uses other ecclesial communities (NB the Church does not call them Churches unless they have apostolic succession) as a means of salvation but it is wrong to say that a person is saved through those ‘churches.’ The ecclesial communities have many elements of sanctification and truth but these are gifts properly belonging to the Catholic Church and should lead people to conversion. Protestants are saved despite their lack of full communion with the Catholic Church.

The doctrine of ‘No Salvation Outside the Church’ remains in force but it is very complex and cannot really be discussed on a forum. It does not mean that protestants are all damned. It means that people can be saved despite not being in the Catholic Church. Protestants can be saved as long as they are invincibly ignorant of the necessity of the Catholic Faith for salvation. People cannot be saved if they know that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation and choose to remain outside. Therefore, protestants may be saved in their ecclesial communities but they’re gambling.

 

[hvizsgyak]

This is my understanding too. Its one thing to be unsure of certain truths that the Catholic Church teaches and are still seeking answers for those truths while even in another church other than the Catholic Church. At least one recognizes that the Catholic Church could be correct in what it teaches but one is still discerning. But their are a lot of my Protestant friends who reject the Catholic Church and many of it’s teachings and refuse to even acknowledge any legitimacy of the Church founded by Christ.
I try to being very understanding with all of my Protestant friends and do my best to listen to their differences with the Catholic Church and then explain the Churches’ teachings. I get a lot of skepticism as if the Church is trying to pull one over their eyes and that we are a tool of the devil. It gets pretty exhausting trying to defend the same arguments over and over but I will continue trudging on.

 

[Entwhistler]

I wouldn’t celebrate the Reformation. As someone said, commemorate yes, but never celebrate. A split in Christianity is a serious thing and never should have happened. Unfortunately, back in during the Reformation, a council might have solved everything. But it took somewhere around 15 years to come about. Both the Protestants and the Catholics are to blame but mainly Catholics. If the Protestant leaders were more interested in a council than fighting the Holy Roman Emperor in Germany Trent might have occurred sooner. If Francis I of France had actually acted like a Catholic Prince and not a Machiavellian prince (no pun intended), things would have gone a lot smoother. And if Pope Paul III and Emperor Charles V had gotten along better we might not be in this mess.

Plenty of blame to go around. And plenty of loss to boot.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Do you understand what celebration of the Mass means?

And what reconcilliation means?

I feel you are stuck on basic comprehension for this article,

And in the wider picture of Holy Father Pope Francis’s visit.

I note you are not Catholic. Thus my suspicion you are misinterpreting celebration of the Mass.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Your pope did come asking for forgiveness. From what? And curious that a Catholic would put him in that role in this parable.

See again, you are applying secular logic to the Catholic Church and the Word of God, and the Vicar of Christ on Earth

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

SojournerOnEarth:

Your pope did come asking for forgiveness. From what? And curious that a Catholic would put him in that role in this parable.

See again, you are applying secular logic to the Catholic Church and the Word of God, and the Vicar of Christ on Earth

Ok, then explain it. Don’t just tell me I don’t understand. And it was a Catholic who referenced Luke 15:10 here, and the way I read it, Pluniaz identifies the Pope with the lost sheep. The pope was the one asking for forgiveness, so to tie the parable in, he is the lost sheep, found now by the Lutherans. A little strange, but there it is.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

I wouldn’t celebrate the Reformation. As someone said, commemorate yes, but never celebrate. A split in Christianity is a serious thing and never should have happened. Unfortunately, back in during the Reformation, a council might have solved everything. But it took somewhere around 15 years to come about. Both the Protestants and the Catholics are to blame but mainly Catholics. If the Protestant leaders were more interested in a council than fighting the Holy Roman Emperor in Germany Trent might have occurred sooner. If Francis I of France had actually acted like a Catholic Prince and not a Machiavellian prince (no pun intended), things would have gone a lot smoother. And if Pope Paul III and Emperor Charles V had gotten along better we might not be in this mess.

Plenty of blame to go around. And plenty of loss to boot.

A Council in 1585 on justification would have helped. But then there was the Muslim invasion of Europe to contend with and a host of other factors. It was messy all around. The Borgia popes were not the best people to handle it, either. Things were going wrong in every direction.

That was then. This is now. We have to deal with the problems of our time, one of which is the complete alienation of part of the church from another. To say the Reformed do not trust the Pope is an understatement. At the same time there is a call to unity among Christians, made more urgent by our joint enemies. I am trying to find a decent response, one better than you would get if you tried to open discussions with us. It’s made more difficult by what are apparently mutual misunderstandings and suspicions.

 

[ChunkMonk]

No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church.

Ignorance cannot save.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Ok, then explain it. Don’t just tell me I don’t understand. And it was a Catholic who referenced Luke 15:10 here, and the way I read it, Pluniaz identifies the Pope with the lost sheep. The pope was the one asking for forgiveness, so to tie the parable in, he is the lost sheep, found now by the Lutherans. A little strange, but there it is.

Well firstly, we dont just orphan biblical passages. We read them in context. So 1. We read a passage in relation to the ones immediately next to it. Secondly, we read the passage in relation to the Book it is in. What are the teachings and messages of that book? What are the cultural norms leading to expression , who is the intended audience? Thirdly , we read the passage and the book in the wider context of Sacred Scripture, Canon, the measuring stick we have, the Authority. We Catholics know that sacred scripture and the Holy See- Holy Father and the Magisterium are in a symbiotic relationship, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Now , the Pope, Holy Father, is our Shepherd. Seen the cross he wears? Shepherd with all us sheep. Jesus asked Peter, the rock, the guy He founded His Church on, to feed His sheep, feed His lambs, look after His sheep. This charge is now on Pope Francis,

So you tell me, from that article you posted, what or why or for whom exactly is Pope Francis asking forgiveness ?

You are going to need to get up ti speed with 1000 years of Church history to enable you to answer that last question.
If we are fortunate, an historical scholar will jump on and gives the dummies version.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

SojournerOnEarth:

Ok, then explain it. Don’t just tell me I don’t understand. And it was a Catholic who referenced Luke 15:10 here, and the way I read it, Pluniaz identifies the Pope with the lost sheep. The pope was the one asking for forgiveness, so to tie the parable in, he is the lost sheep, found now by the Lutherans. A little strange, but there it is.

Well firstly, we dont just orphan biblical passages. We read them in context. So 1. We read a passage in relation to the ones immediately next to it. Secondly, we read the passage in relation to the Book it is in. What are the teachings and messages of that book? What are the cultural norms leading to expression , who is the intended audience? Thirdly , we read the passage and the book in the wider context of Sacred Scripture, Canon, the measuring stick we have, the Authority. We Catholics know that sacred scripture and the Holy See- Holy Father and the Magisterium are in a symbiotic relationship, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Now , the Pope, Holy Father, is our Shepherd. Seen the cross he wears? Shepherd with all us sheep. Jesus asked Peter, the rock, the guy He founded His Church on, to feed His sheep, feed His lambs, look after His sheep. This charge is now on Pope Francis,

So you tell me, from that article you posted, what or why or for whom exactly is Pope Francis asking forgiveness ?

You are going to need to get up ti speed with 1000 years of Church history to enable you to answer that last question.
If we are fortunate, an historical scholar will jump on and gives the dummies version.

For one thing, I am reluctant to put much theological weight on one article in the NY Times.

He expressed gratitude for the Reformation, you will observe. He also asked for forgiveness and wanted to admit error. For what does not seem to be present. If you see it, say what it is.

By the way, I’m not the one who presented an ‘orphan’ Bible passage. That was friend Pluniaz. We read passages in context as well.

 

[ChunkMonk]

Pluniaz, God bless him, is something out of the old, old school where the Pope is the Pope and that is all us non-Popes need to know. He was probably responding to what he perceived as attacks or judgements against our Holy Father.

In the parable, I can only assume, Pluniaz was comparing The Holy Father to Christ and comparing the Portestants with the prostitutes and publicans, saying that people judge Pope Francis for eating with “unworthies” just like they judged Christ for the same.

I actually really respect Pluniaz’s attitude about, and devotion to, the Papacy. Obedience and submission are way out of vogue in today’s world.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

For one thing, I am reluctant to put much theological weight on one article in the NY Times.

He expressed gratitude for the Reformation, you will observe. He also asked for forgiveness and wanted to admit error. For what does not seem to be present. If you see it, say what it is.

By the way, I’m not the one who presented an ‘orphan’ Bible passage. That was friend Pluniaz. We read passages in context as well.

Why on earth did you post an article and start discussing it

IF YOU DONT PUT MUCH THEOLOGICAL WEIGHT IN IT.

forgiveness and error for what, whom why? Stop avoiding the question, find out !

And you wanted to orphan that passage to pick apart and discuss to validate a point. One huge abuse of Biblical reading is orphaning passages to personal interpretation to win arguments.

What was Pluniaz saying, when he quoted that passage? Ask him!

 

[Entwhistler]

To say the Reformed do not trust the Pope is an understatement.

Interesting. Is this just Pope Francis or does it extend to Benedict and John Paul II? I personally have problems with Francis. Nothing theological. Mainly how he presents the Church. Most of what he says is correct with nuance but he doesn’t use nuance much from what I’ve read. To to his credit it’s hard to do in this world of sound bytes and Twitter posts.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

SojournerOnEarth:

For one thing, I am reluctant to put much theological weight on one article in the NY Times.

He expressed gratitude for the Reformation, you will observe. He also asked for forgiveness and wanted to admit error. For what does not seem to be present. If you see it, say what it is.

By the way, I’m not the one who presented an ‘orphan’ Bible passage. That was friend Pluniaz. We read passages in context as well.

Why on earth did you post an article and start discussing it

IF YOU DONT PUT MUCH THEOLOGICAL WEIGHT IN IT.

forgiveness and error for what, whom why? Stop avoiding the question, find out !

And you wanted to orphan that passage to pick apart and discuss to validate a point. One huge abuse of Biblical reading is orphaning passages to personal interpretation to win arguments.

What was Pluniaz saying, when he quoted that passage? Ask him!

I thought you people might know a lot more about this situation than I do. I have read a few things; the article is for reference and seemed to cover the main points. It would not surprise me if the Reformed press has completely ignored it.

I am not avoiding the question. Apparently you don’t know the answer either.