Pope Francis' Overtures To Protestants

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Entwhistler said:
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SojournerOnEarth:
To say the Reformed do not trust the Pope is an understatement.
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Interesting. Is this just Pope Francis or does it extend to Benedict and John Paul II? I personally have problems with Francis. Nothing theological. Mainly how he presents the Church. Most of what he says is correct with nuance but he doesn’t use nuance much from what I’ve read. To to his credit it’s hard to do in this world of sound bytes and Twitter posts.
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It is nothing about the man. I find admirable things in all three of these popes. It is the office of the papacy itself.
 
SojournerOnEarth said:
I thought you people might know a lot more about this situation than I do. I have read a few things; the article is for reference and seemed to cover the main points. It would not surprise me if the Reformed press has completely ignored it.

I am not avoiding the question. Apparently you don’t know the answer either.
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We ‘you people’ are not here to spoon feed you.

Stop avoiding the question. After all you posted what you freely admit is a doubtful web article theologically, then used it to make points.

So again what, why whom, how is the term and meaning of forgiveness and error being used by Christ’s Vicar on earth, my shepherd and your shepherd, the head of the Church that Jesus Christ established.
 
No it’s not sarcasm, it’s the link to the Homily from Sweden. Here is the heading of the link.

APOSTOLIC JOURNEY OF HIS HOLINESS POPE FRANCIS
TO SWEDEN
(31 OCTOBER - 1 NOVEMBER 2016)

COMMON ECUMENICAL PRAYER AT THE LUTHERAN CATHEDRAL OF LUND

HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS POPE FRANCIS

Lund
Monday, 31 October 2016

[Multimedia]

Read it! Then we discuss history
 
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I don’t think the Pope make any profound statements here, except to show up and show that he and the Catholic Church are ready to come to the table for talks on reconciliation with the splintered sects. I tend to agree with someone’s comment that we don’t have to go back 500 years, necessarily, in all matter, but in some cases that may be necessary.

The Catholic Church does not operate as a parliament with political parties. Our view of the truth is that it is unchangeable. I could start knocking off protestant churches who have rolled over on contraception, abortion, divorce, homosexuality, etc. and even on deeper matters like how many gods there are. One the other hand, the RCC admits that it needs to acknowledge what is good in other churches.
 
BayCityRickL said:
I don’t think the Pope make any profound statements here, except to show up and show that he and the Catholic Church are ready to come to the table for talks on reconciliation with the splintered sects. I tend to agree with someone’s comment that we don’t have to go back 500 years, necessarily, in all matter, but in some cases that may be necessary.

The Catholic Church does not operate as a parliament with political parties. Our view of the truth is that it is unchangeable. I could start knocking off protestant churches who have rolled over on contraception, abortion, divorce, homosexuality, etc. and even on deeper matters like how many gods there are. One the other hand, the RCC admits that it needs to acknowledge what is good in other churches.
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That may well be. Maybe he wasn’t specific but just making an opening.
 
hvizsgyak said:
It gets pretty exhausting trying to defend the same arguments over and over but I will continue trudging on.
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I agree. I used to discuss Christianity with an uncle who is protestant and I always felt drained afterwards because his mind was completely closed; we’d spend hours and he’d agree with the premises but would never draw the correct conclusion. After many wasted hours, I decided to end the dialogue and take up the Rosary. It’s my belief that many protestants have a closed mind when it comes to the Catholic Church and that the only evidence they’ll accept is holiness.
 
SojournerOnEarth said:
Ridiculous.
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It might take you some time but it’s not ‘ridiculous.’ If you want to understand things properly, you’ll have to put some time in. I mean no disrespect, but you don’t know a lot about the Catholic Faith; and I draw this conclusion based on your comments about Vatican II and Mass in the vernacular. It’s great that you’ve joined this forum and I know we’ll have good conversations if you make the effort to read some documents and come here with informed questions.
 
SojournerOnEarth said:
I’m done playing your stupid games.
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It’s probably for the best that you stop posting on this thread because nobody is getting anywhere with you. You’re ignoring my posts because I lost ‘credibility’ in your eyes for saying Vatican II specifically wanted Mass in Latin. I provided proof and you still haven’t responded.
 
This no salvation outside the church is not held by all Catholics. Too many Protestants are filled with the Holy Spirit and have near death experiences and see Jesus and enter heaven. Even Muslims see Jesus and believe but they are not Catholics. There is flexibility and technically it’s only one church. Not every Protestant hates Catholics and vice versa.
 
As I understand it, the ‘no salvation outside the church’ is a extremely nuanced doctrine that really doesn’t lend itself to easy soundbites and simple explanations. Suffice to say it doesn’t mean the only people saved are the people visibly members of the Catholic church 🙂
 
The word ‘celebrate’ seems to overstate what actually happened. As the headline implies, Pope Francis appears to be encouraging reconciliation. I don’t see how any rationale person would object to that…

The reformation was a very difficult thing in that it caused formal division, much angst and many deaths. It did however evetually lead both sides to realize some of their errors and that is a good thing. I hope that full reconciliation is in our future.
 
Inbetweener said:
This no salvation outside the church is not held by all Catholics.
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The doctrine was reaffirmed by Vatican II. All Catholics must believe in this doctrine. It is non-negotionable. You either reject the whole or accept the whole - it’s that simple.

Those ‘Catholics’ who pick and choose what to believe are prideful. I’ve struggled with doctrines in the past, but I chose to accept with docility whatever the Church teaches; I know my intellect is fallible and my reasoning is not perfect - and that’s why accept whatever the Church teaches. It’s not my decision. Rome has spoken; the case is closed.
 
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There is much nuance to the teaching ‘there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church’. To reduce it to a simple yes or no is not correct…In fact, the Church teaches that there is circumstances where a person may never have walked in to a Catholic Church building, but is still bound for eternal life in Heaven

Here is the teaching through the Catechism:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
 
SojournerOnEarth said:
I’m done playing your stupid games
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That link, the one I asked you to open and read, the one from the Vatican.

That link is to the Homily - the speech Holy Father Pope Francis- gave during Mass in Sweden during his trip, the trip to Sweden for the Lutheran anniversary.

It is in that Homily, that speech, the words in the link I posted, that Holy Father said the words forgive and errors.

It is the original Homily, in its original and true context.

Surely if you had a genuine interest, and were not just looking to attack Pope Francis,

You would be interested in reading that speech!

Now I forgive You for I’m done playing your stupid games. And will pray your stubborn hardened heart softens enough to stop trolling and actually engage in dialogue with others on this site.
 
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