Pope Francis' Overtures To Protestants

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That link goes to the main Vatican website, in Italian, when I click on it. So did another one you furnished.

From previous remarks I concluded you and others were simply playing Provoke the Protestant until I got mad enough to leave and then you would smirk.

You did. Congratulations. You won.

Then I said to myself, what if Roseeurekacross ISN’T playing a game. How can I give this person the benefit of the doubt, which is what Lund was about, which is what this thread is about. I looked at some of your posts and I note that you have gotten a lot of likes. From some of your posts you seem to be a nice and reasonable person. Grounds for resuming the discussion. Maybe, as they say, we got off to a bad start. Someone who starts a discussion on ecumenism by insulting the Reformation poisoned the discussion. As for anyone who refers to the Reformation as ‘deformation’, they are not interested in a serious discussion. I will probably not respond to them. It’s trolling, real trolling.

I came here for serious discussion. I am not trolling. It is possible you think I am, and it is very true that I think some here are trolling. I am not. Beyond that, either believe me or not. I have chosen to believe that you are not playing games, despite some evidence. And there is the natural suspicion between the Catholics and the Reformed. I expect hostility, and it is possible I saw some where there was none.

Here is an actual, working link to the pope’s homily at Lund http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...ion-for-the-500th-anniversary-of-reformation/, I would strongly suggest that when you post a link you make sure it goes where you want it to go.

I commend him for doing this, although it does not seem that guilt or errors or need for forgiveness was admitted on the Catholic side, or any charges made towards the Lutheran side. That’s ok. He went far in doing this, and in saying some nice things about the Reformation, or comparatively nice things. Admirable of him to do this.
 
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SojournerOnEarth said:
That link goes to the main Vatican website, in Italian, when I click on it. So did another one you furnished.

From previous remarks I concluded you and others were simply playing Provoke the Protestant until I got mad enough to leave and then you would smirk.

You did. Congratulations. You won.

Then I said to myself, what if Roseeurekacross ISN’T playing a game. How can I give this person the benefit of the doubt, which is what Lund was about, which is what this thread is about. I looked at some of your posts and I note that you have gotten a lot of likes. From some of your posts you seem to be a nice and reasonable person. Grounds for resuming the discussion. Maybe, as they say, we got off to a bad start. Someone who starts a discussion on ecumenism by insulting the Reformation poisoned the discussion. As for anyone who refers to the Reformation as ‘deformation’, they are not interested in a serious discussion. I will probably not respond to them. It’s trolling, real trolling.

I came here for serious discussion. I am not trolling. It is possible you think I am, and it is very true that I think some here are trolling. I am not. Beyond that, either believe me or not. I have chosen to believe that you are not playing games, despite some evidence. And there is the natural suspicion between the Catholics and the Reformed. I expect hostility, and it is possible I saw some where there was none.

Here is an actual, working link to the pope’s homily at Lund http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...ion-for-the-500th-anniversary-of-reformation/, I would strongly suggest that when you post a link you make sure it goes where you want it to go.

I commend him for doing this, although it does not seem that guilt or errors or need for forgiveness was admitted on the Catholic side, or any charges made towards the Lutheran side. That’s ok. He went far in doing this, and in saying some nice things about the Reformation, or comparatively nice things. Admirable of him to do this.
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Both links are the same, they go to the same place. You didn’t try the link really, did you?

Again, that link goes to the Homily. Try it!

I can’t imagine it would only go to the Homily for me! Do you? Here is a link to the Vatican home page, very different.

Official home page of the Vatican is here - The Holy See

Official page to Holy Father’s Swedish Homily, as previously posted , is here http://m.vatican.va/content/frances...pa-francesco_20161031_omelia-svezia-lund.html

Again I forgive, rather then flag, your uncharitable post.

Try both links, discover the difference. !

Ps I have never met a Protestant, irl, why would I carry that attitude to a Protestant. I am in rural Australia. We know poking those of God’s creatures full of angst, rarely does fencing any good! 🌈🦏🐖

PPS I am prob getting likes because i am giving them out in our level up . Here’s a few for you .
 
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Both go to the Vatican homepage in Italian in Chrome when I click on them.

I can think of several reasons this could happen of a technical nature. That’s irrelevant.

I’m thinking this was probably an honest mistake on your part.
 
SojournerOnEarth said:
Both go to the Vatican homepage in Italian in Chrome when I click on them.

I can think of several reasons this could happen of a technical nature. That’s irrelevant.

I’m thinking this was probably an honest mistake on your part.
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Oh, I am using Safari on an iPad and iPhone.

That’s probably our issue. We might have to get @cawebmaster to sort out how to fix that.

In all seriousness , in my part of Aus, there are no Protestants. I think you guys United with another Church here.

I feel for people of other religions who get persecuted, as much as we Catholics do, for our beliefs. And I apologise if I came off that way. We all speak English, but the tone can come off very differently.
 
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I agree totally. When I feel like I hit a brick wall after discussing the differences between our Catholic faith and a friends Protestant faith, I admit I get frustrated that we still can’t see eye to eye after such a long discussion. I eventually realize I need to let God clear the misunderstanding or miscommunication. Thanks for reminding me, Saxum, that prayer is the best remedy for clearing the air and clearing the head of frustration. I truly hope Pope Francis (guided by the Holy Spirit) continues to clear the air of differences that separate Catholics from our Protestant friends. And the blinders start to fall by the wayside and we as Christians become one in Truth.
 
I think your pope did some things right in terms of approach.
  1. He did not compromise Catholic integrity in belief.
    2.He did not ask the Lutherans to do so, either.
  2. He did not go after a false unity, or pretend there is more unity than there is.
  3. He said there was more work to be done.
  4. He did not slam the Lutherans. He praised them where he could. Also note, though, how restrained and careful his praise was.
I think he is here pointing the way forward for Catholics to work in ecumenism. That also means, I think, that this is the approach Protestants should rightfully expect Catholics to take.

I think the old let’s insult and beat each other back into fellowship approach has utterly failed. Some have not learned this, and I will disregard such people on CAF. Unfortunately there are too many on both sides who just want a bloodletting. What I have read indicates that the mind of the church is different than it was. I have been looking at a number of posts from a @Don_Ruggero who left under the mistaken impression, from his posts, that this place would be unmoderated after the change, which turns out to only have been a rumor that unfortunately was not quashed. He spoke authoritatively and movingly on these matters. I had hoped he would be drawn to this discussion. I still have that hope.
 
I have no reason to celebrate the fracturing of Christendom, and neither does Pope Francis.
 
Personally I feel cheated by protestantism. You kept me from Truth for so long, telling me Truth is historically wrong, making me promises you couldn’t fulfill, opening heaven to shine on my will, taking my soul on a journey of knots, providing me peace while society rots, setting my place at the table of heaven, rested assured that my ego had risen.

How can I celebrate that. If I had to construct a way to approach my old protestant self and have him commune with my now Catholic self, I would be in a position where my old protestant self would try and tell my now Catholic self what is Truth, and my now Catholic self would not say a word, because my old protestant self would not understand.
 
I see the word ‘celebrate’ is troublesome. All right, ‘commemorate’.
 
Darryl_B said:
Personally I feel cheated by protestantism. You kept me from Truth for so long, telling me Truth is historically wrong, making me promises you couldn’t fulfill, opening heaven to shine on my will, taking my soul on a journey of knots, providing me peace while society rots, setting my place at the table of heaven, rested assured that my ego had risen.

How can I celebrate that. If I had to construct a way to approach my old protestant self and have him commune with my now Catholic self, I would be in a position where my old protestant self would try and tell my now Catholic self what is Truth, and my now Catholic self would not say a word, because my old protestant self would not understand.
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So where do you think we should go from here?
 
Saxum said:
I agree. I used to discuss Christianity with an uncle who is protestant and I always felt drained afterwards because his mind was completely closed; we’d spend hours and he’d agree with the premises but would never draw the correct conclusion. After many wasted hours, I decided to end the dialogue and take up the Rosary. It’s my belief that many protestants have a closed mind when it comes to the Catholic Church and that the only evidence they’ll accept is holiness.
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When I, as a Protestant, started looking into the Catholic I quickly found that a lot of doctrines made sense, when explained from the Catholic point of view. Eventually I got to a point where I had no reasonable objections to Catholicism. But I didn’t exactly want to become a Catholic. It was a big change. It meant leaving behind a very great group of folks at my Protestant church. It meant in some way rejecting the faith of my parents, even if their faith isn’t the strongest. It meant a change in identity.

After a period of struggle I began to see what I needed to do. But it took a while before I could actually become Catholic. I am sure you don’t think this but it isn’t that we are going to overwhelm people with Catholic logic and they will instantly convert. It, like all good things, is a process. Sometimes grace can make it quicker. Thus, as you do, the most important thing is to pray.
 
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SojournerOnEarth said:
I think the old let’s insult and beat each other back into fellowship approach has utterly failed. Some have not learned this, and I will disregard such people on CAF. Unfortunately there are too many on both sides who just want a bloodletting.
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I understand why you say this, but in my opinion there is room for different approaches and reasons for using different approaches. I do think it true that the ‘old’ approach was more I’m right and you are wrong. The new approach is one of seeking commonality. But there is a reason for the old approach.

In the early days of the Protestant Reformation the reformers didn’t have the attitude of everyone read the Bible and come up with your own interpretation. They were dogmatic, just like the Catholic Church. They said certain passages mean certain things, and if you disagree you are outside of the Church. They were serious about doctrine.

The first authorities and followers of a movement were dogmatic, but those who came after were less so. Like anyone born into a belief they often just accepted their position. They didn’t question it. They might not have even cared about details as much.

For this reason at this point in time many Protestants don’t care much about the details. They have this approach of embracing anyone who has faith in Jesus. For these people the I’m right and you are wrong approach simply won’t work. These people don’t think details matter. But there are some people who are very dogmatic. For them the I’m right and you’re wrong approach might work better. Because that is how they think.

Obviously this is painting with a broad brush. The Catholic Church remains insistent on certain details. We can’t avoid that issue. This may not be the thing to lead with. But it will come up eventually.
 
Darryl_B said:
Personally I feel cheated by protestantism. You kept me from Truth for so long, telling me Truth is historically wrong, making me promises you couldn’t fulfill, opening heaven to shine on my will, taking my soul on a journey of knots, providing me peace while society rots, setting my place at the table of heaven, rested assured that my ego had risen.

How can I celebrate that. If I had to construct a way to approach my old protestant self and have him commune with my now Catholic self, I would be in a position where my old protestant self would try and tell my now Catholic self what is Truth, and my now Catholic self would not say a word, because my old protestant self would not understand.
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I understand what you mean. In a sense I too feel cheated. But I also think I got many good things from my life as a Protestant. I have no problem being thankful for that. As for the falsehoods I look at it sympathetically. Father forgive them. They know not what they do. I think most were doing what is natural. They were passing on what had been handed to them. Sure they could have been more critical of what they were taught. But there is some virtue in honoring your father.
 
“Come back to us” does not mean “How good it was that you left”.

Pope Francis urges atonement and reconciliation. He does not celebrate the Reformation.
 
Here are a few of my responses:
  • No, there was very little mention of this event in my area, where there are a lot of Catholics, and a fairly good number of Lutherans. The RC bishop had a joint service with the ELCA bishop. But ELCA is moving farther apart from Catholicism, not closer, on issues like abortion, marriage, religious liberty, etc.
  • I am fine with the Pope and bishops meeting with liberal Protestant leaders. But this is to try to slow down the drift apart, it does not reverse it. The pope is trying to reach out to individual Protestants, who vary among themselves. Good. I am more interested in the evangelicals, including LCMS. They stand next to us at the abortion “clinic”, and when the former US president was hammering the Churches in Washington.
  • Vatican II made some doctrinal development in ecumenism, and I am obedient to that. But there was ecumenism on many fronts long before Vatican II. In the US, Catholics and evangelicals cooperated to stop immoral movies from the 1930s to the 1960s, for instance. Abortion was unthinkable in the US, not because of ecumenical ceremonies and dinners, but because like minded Christians, almost all laity, cooperated quietly in their daily life, influencing the culture.
  • The NY Times is anti-Catholic. Using them as a resource on a Catholic site is equivalent to going on a Jewish site and referencing as authoritative the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
 
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Thank you for your responses.

There is at least one link to the actual text of his address further down in the thread.
 
Acknowledge it? Yes, in several Homilies. As someone else mentioned, it’s not something to celebrate!
 
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I get where you’re coming from, now, SojournerOnEarth. I think this Pope is very good at coming to the table with humility, which has the tendency to open channels of communication. It’s always worth examining our own part in any situation.
There is an understandable antagonism between Catholics and Protestants, particularly, I have found, between converts in either direction. But this doesn’t reflect the gentle approach Pope Francis is taking and that is as unfortunate as the Reformation itself. I have no great love for the Reformation personally, I feel much as the previous poster who said they felt it did them wrong.
But I think the way forward is in all charity, looking at the issues as they arise.
 
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