Pope Francis' Overtures To Protestants

[SojournerOnEarth]

There was a great deal of harm done by both sides, as I think it says in your catechism.

The way forward seems to be through humility and forgiveness. We are where we are. We need to let go of the past as much as possible. It happened, yes, and some things do need to get worked through, but we should not be accusing each other but treating each other as brothers and sisters. And the issues are real and not to be papered over. A lot of that will be settled by people whose pay grade is a lot higher than mine.

Most Protestants today give almost no thought to Luther, Calvin, or others who seem to be mentioned more here than among Protestants. I don’t think I ever heard about Matt Slick until I came here. Some here think he is a big name but we have a lot of names, most bigger than his. I would think most Catholics don’t want to rehash the Reformation but move on with life: nice if we got this thing fixed, otherwise they give little thought about it.

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

Quite. As I say, it’s an issue for converts often, such as myself. The Reformation was a big thing among the Protestants of my former acquaintance, but they were Reformed Baptists of quite a vehement stripe. I learned a lot of belligerence from them and I don’t doubt it will take a lifetime to work itself into gentleness and patience instead.
Most Christian people I know now just want to do their best to follow Christ and are glad to have fellow travellers on the way. But obviously this is about tone and manner, not about the substance of doctrine, in which there is still much dispute. Just last night I was at Mass with a relic of the True Cross on the altar, and the thought occured to me how much even my most open minded Protestant friends would baulk at that.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

One problem is that the people who are most motivated to write about this seem to be the ones who have an ax to grind, whether on either side. And so when you go looking to find ‘What’s Wrong with X’ literature, whether X is Catholic or Protestant, it’s written in a nasty way and overemphasizes the differences and overstates their own case. There are real differences - I’m not saying there are not - it’s just they need to be addressed in a sane manner instead of what you can see so often in the literature and on internet fora, which can draw the worst of the worst.

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

Ah, well that’s the internet for you. A wonderful communication tool so often reduced to rants and misunderstandings.

 

[phil19034]

Saxum:

PluniaZ:

Luke 15:1-10

This Gospel passage isn’t relevant to the topic. All Catholics want our separated brethren to return to the One True Church that is founded on Peter. This thread is not about the return of the protestants - it’s about the apparent ‘celebration’ of the protestant revolt. There is nothing to celebrate about Father Luther’s deformation.

For my part, it would be good for Catholics to accept the insights of the Reformation. Having Mass in the vernacular was a good step. Your pope came in seeming humility. I am pondering as to what an appropriate response should be.

I do not think incendiary language (revolt, deformation) is conducive to dialog. Please stop using it. Thank you.

One of the best ways that Catholic commemorate the Protestant reformation is recognizing the Catholic reformation that was already underway before Martin Luther.

Were there issues going on in the Catholic Church during this time? Yes, there were. But did they require a break from Rome? No.

Before Martin Luther, there was already a great reforms happening in Spain - which is the main reason why the Protestant reformation never took hold in Spain and Portugal. Cardinal Francisco Jiménez de Cisneros was a great reformer who creates the seminary system, has a new Bible created that is in Hebrew, Greek and Latin so priests can compare the different languages. He also started publishing Catholic books once the printing press is invented. He also kicked out a number of corrupt priests who wanted to keep concubines (many of them converted to Islam after they were kicked out of the clergy).

Cardinal Jimenez had a great affect on many of the known Catholic reformation era Saints, like Ignatius of Loyola, St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Francis de Sales, St. Charles Borromeo, etc.

In Oct, there will be a new Lighthouse Catholic CD by the Augustine Institute released that will discuss this greatly.

Here are some resources that faithful Catholics are reviewing now to commemorate the Protestant reformation:

True Reformers: Saints of the Catholic Reformation - Jerome K. Williams

Click here to read a sample. Who are the true benefactors of the human race? Explorers? Scientists? Revolutionaries? Rebels against established authority? .

www.lighthousecatholicmedia.org

Understanding Luther: A Catholic Perspective on the Protestant Reformation - Lighthouse Catholic Media

True Reformers - DVD Set - Dr. Christopher Blum

This six-episode series explores the lives of Saints Ignatius of Loyola, Thomas More, Francis de Sales, Philip Neri, Charles Borromeo, and Teresa of Avila.

www.lighthousecatholicmedia.org

http://amzn.to/2y44qv5

God bless!

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

@phil19034

Great post, by the way. You are setting a high mark.

That does not of course mean that I agree with you. You give a lot of information in a charitable way, on-target to the thread and succinct. Nice writing style.

I’m thinking of Alistair McGrath’s Iustitia Dei https://www.amazon.com/Iustitia-Dei-Christian-Doctrine-Justification/dp/0521533899 as I read your list. MANY more books on both sides could be added.

We could, I suppose, debate whether the break was necessary, but more to the point is whether reunification is necessary, and what would that look like, and how would we get there. I’m not taking time right now to answer those, just mentioning them in passing, as if I had answers.

 

[steve-b]

There certainly were issues around the Reformation, but it didn’t come from nowhere. There were a number of thing the Catholic church need reforming on.

The Church has always reformed herself. That’s what ecumenical councils do as well as local councils.

One of the issues during the revolt, was selling of indulgences. Selling indulgences was never approved by the Church. Indulgences are still here with us. As far as all the ALONES that became the Protestant dogmas, faith alone, and scripture alone, and grace alone, are still rejected by the Catholic Church.

As an aside, while we are saved by faith, and grace, both need to be working in us, in love. IOW, neither is alone. And nowhere in scripture does it say we are to follow scripture ALONE

 

[Darryl_B]

The only thing I can do as a Catholic for my old protestant self, would be to invite me to Mass.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

The only thing I can do as a Catholic for my old protestant self, would be to invite me to Mass.

Actually you could study what they believe, from their sources, to get to know what they believe, in order to speak more intelligently and knowledgeably, particularly seeking out those things in the Reformation that the popes have praised as unique insights. You might also come to a better understanding of Catholicism and be better equipped to engage in a respectful dialog with Protestants. Some seem only interested in a mindless antagonism. I have not seen that in you, and I would hope for the best in you, which I think would include what I have just written.

 

[exnihilo]

Before Martin Luther, there was already a great reforms happening in Spain - which is the main reason why the Protestant reformation never took hold in Spain and Portugal.

That may well be the reason. But I wonder if there was more to it. Politics can certainly play a role, cuius regio, eius religio. I’ve also wondered if aside from culture if language played a role. The reformation took hold in Germanic lands. Not only is their culture going to be different, but their language is completely different from the language of the Church. Would a common Spaniard or Frenchman of the day have found Latin more accessible? I don’t know but have wondered that.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

phil19034:

Before Martin Luther, there was already a great reforms happening in Spain - which is the main reason why the Protestant reformation never took hold in Spain and Portugal.

That may well be the reason. But I wonder if there was more to it. Politics can certainly play a role, cuius regio, eius religio. I’ve also wondered if aside from culture if language played a role. The reformation took hold in Germanic lands. Not only is their culture going to be different, but their language is completely different from the language of the Church. Would a common Spaniard or Frenchman of the day have found Latin more accessible? I don’t know but have wondered that.

One reason the Reformation did not take hold in Spain was its ruthless suppression. In France many Protestants were burned. I don’t know what happened in Italy, but I suspect something similar.

But really, this is going off topic. I am curious about what we do now, what Catholics are doing towards ecumenism, what the reaction is to what your pope did at Lund, and how you think Protestants should respond.

 

[exnihilo]

One reason the Reformation did not take hold in Spain was its ruthless suppression. In France many Protestants were burned. I don’t know what happened in Italy, but I suspect something similar.

I don’t know that history. But what I do know is that suppression was common. For instance in England the Catholic Faith was ruthlessly suppressed.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

SojournerOnEarth:

One reason the Reformation did not take hold in Spain was its ruthless suppression. In France many Protestants were burned. I don’t know what happened in Italy, but I suspect something similar.

I don’t know that history. But what I do know is that suppression was common. For instance in England the Catholic Faith was ruthlessly suppressed.

And they called Bloody Mary that for a reason.

That was then.

Where do we go from here?

edit: She was Catholic. Here is Wikipedia, for a start https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_I_of_England

 

[exnihilo]

And they called Bloody Mary that for a reason.

That was then.

Where do we go from here?

Well right now we kind of have a one upsmanship. You pointed out Catholic suppression and I pointed out Protestants suppression. But then you had to point out more Catholic suppression. I guess I could point out more Catholics were killed in England than Protestants. Or we could agree that both sides worked to suppress.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

SojournerOnEarth:

And they called Bloody Mary that for a reason.

That was then.

Where do we go from here?

Well right now we kind of have a one upsmanship. You pointed out Catholic suppression and I pointed out Protestants suppression. But then you had to point out more Catholic suppression. I guess I could point out more Catholics were killed in England than Protestants. Or we could agree that both sides worked to suppress.

We agree that both sides worked to suppress.

Now what?"

 

[exnihilo]

We agree that both sides worked to suppress.

Now what?"

I think we worry about the here and now. And we recognize that since Jesus prayed that we be as one that we work towards that.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

SojournerOnEarth:

We agree that both sides worked to suppress.

Now what?"

I think we worry about the here and now. And we recognize that since Jesus prayed that we be as one that we work towards that.

You seem a decent fellow.

How do we do that?

 

[exnihilo]

You seem a decent fellow.

How do we do that?

As a Catholic I think I enter into dialog, be a good example of the Catholic Faith, and pray. I’m personally not a big fan of ecumenical services. But I do think interacting while doing charitable works is a good way to come together.

 

[SojournerOnEarth]

I found this Unitatis redintegratio

Some Catholic posters on this thread clearly have not read it or disregard it. I would draw your attention to this

1. We must get to know the outlook of our separated brethren. To achieve this purpose, study is of necessity required, and this must be pursued with a sense of realism and good will. Catholics, who already have a proper grounding, need to acquire a more adequate understanding of the respective doctrines of our separated brethren, their history, their spiritual and liturgical life, their religious psychology and general background. Most valuable for this purpose are meetings of the two sides - especially for discussion of theological problems - where each can deal with the other on an equal footing - provided that those who take part in them are truly competent and have the approval of the bishops. From such dialogue will emerge still more clearly what the situation of the Catholic Church really is. In this way too the outlook of our separated brethren will be better understood, and our own belief more aptly explained.

and

1. Now that we have briefly set out the conditions for ecumenical action and the principles by which it is to be directed, we look with confidence to the future. This Sacred Council exhorts the faithful to refrain from superficiality and imprudent zeal, which can hinder real progress toward unity. Their ecumenical action must be fully and sincerely Catholic, that is to say, faithful to the truth which we have received from the apostles and Fathers of the Church, in harmony with the faith which the Catholic Church has always professed, and at the same time directed toward that fullness to which Our Lord wills His Body to grow in the course of time.

Bolding is mine.

I think this is good stuff. It is probably binding on Catholics. I think we can discuss things civilly at a lay level.

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

I agree. Civility is not difficult if one’s purpose is to love one another. In my own case I have an ecumenical family, with charismatic Anglicans, atheists and nearly Catholics represented. If we couldn’t get along without tearing one another to shreds home life would be unbearable.
I visit with the Anglicans when they worship, and my church of England husband has recently agreed to start coming along to Mass. Obviously we can’t share communion in each others communities, so a doctrinal line is drawn, but fellowship goes a long way to building bridges.