Pope Francis: parents can smack their children for bad behaviour

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christofirst said:
RGCheek’s rather passionate defense of corporal punishment (at least in the post directed at me) surprised me and got me thinking again. Am I wrong in thinking that violence begets violence? The idea of a cycle of violence is almost overused now, so it will likely be dismissed by proponents of corporal punishment, but I maintain it is still a valid point. We teach our kids to solve problems with violence when we hit them. It is true, children often hit others without ever being hit themselves (could it be instinctual? Like an animal?), but we parents can either discourage or reinforce this violent behavior by our response.

Now I suspect in this case the Pope was just speaking off-the-cuff again, encouraging what he considered to be loving parental involvement in the lives of their children, and certainly not attempting to establish a Theology of Corporal Punishment.

So I submit 2 links, one based on a Catholic Bishops’ statement on corporal punishment, and the other his own consideration, both from family counselor and psychologist Greg Popcak:

patheos.com/blogs/faithonthecouch/2013/07/catholic-bishops-weigh-in-on-corporal-punishment/

nospank.net/popcak.htm
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It fascinates me the mental gymnastics one has to do with this Pope. Lets use them in real life.

RGCheek did not mean what he typed. Perhaps he is the product of his culture, perhaps he is the proud orator who is misunderstood. Or perhaps he did not know how his posts would be taken. The problem is that you are taking what he typed off the cuff. This is Catholic Answers and he is not speaking of a theological issue but rather just trying to make a metaphorical point… He is being ferocious. Why do you focus on what he is typing here in this thread but not in others. In his day and age he did not know better, and this is the only way he can communicate with a world that has passed him by. I for one take all that RGCheek had to say and only obey and agree with the fuzzy nice, politically agreeable stuff. Like RGCheek and I like the same sports team so whatever he types about that we agree on, but in this he is being taken out of context. He meant corporal punishment as an abstract concept, not a real life option that he thinks parents can use.

Or.
Perhaps RGcheek meant what he typed exactly. Perhaps the Pope meant what he said as well.

(Sorry RGCheek if I got your sex wrong, and sorry that I used you to make a point.)
 
christofirst said:
RGCheek’s rather passionate defense of corporal punishment (at least in the post directed at me) surprised me and got me thinking again. Am I wrong in thinking that violence begets violence? The idea of a cycle of violence is almost overused now, so it will likely be dismissed by proponents of corporal punishment, but I maintain it is still a valid point. We teach our kids to solve problems with violence when we hit them. It is true, children often hit others without ever being hit themselves (could it be instinctual? Like an animal?), but we parents can either discourage or reinforce this violent behavior by our response.

Now I suspect in this case the Pope was just speaking off-the-cuff again, encouraging what he considered to be loving parental involvement in the lives of their children, and certainly not attempting to establish a Theology of Corporal Punishment.

So I submit 2 links, one based on a Catholic Bishops’ statement on corporal punishment, and the other his own consideration, both from family counselor and Catholic psychologist Greg Popcak:

patheos.com/blogs/faithonthecouch/2013/07/catholic-bishops-weigh-in-on-corporal-punishment/

nospank.net/popcak.htm
Click to expand...
Thank you for posting this Christofirst.

I’ve read one and will hopefully be able to read the other soon.
In an earlier post you mentioned how The Pope’s words could hurt some who have been abused through the use of corporal punishment. I guess I can see that through how people are reacting from some of the posts here. For some reason I did not take the Pope’s words to be condoning the use of Corporal Punishment. I am not sure of all the reasons why and will have to continue pondering it. Right now all I can say is I found his words to be very pastorally in nature and if Longingsoul is correct I have more confidence that just because I did resort to spanking my children it was not because I am or was intrinsically evil in doing it. Would I ever resort to it again? I can honestly say no! I wouldn’t! Even if people insist that the Holy Father was saying corporal punishment is “ok.” How they are getting that I am still trying to wrap my brain around to understand. I believe maybe some of it is coming from our own life’s experiences. I was very much raised with the “spare the rod, spoil the child” mentality but it went quite beyond that. I used to say I was punished for a reason and at least my parents cared enough to disi
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
It fascinates me the mental gymnastics one has to do with this Pope. Lets use them in real life.

RGCheek did not mean what he typed. Perhaps he is the product of his culture, perhaps he is the proud orator who is misunderstood. Or perhaps he did not know how his posts would be taken. The problem is that you are taking what he typed off the cuff. This is Catholic Answers and he is not speaking of a theological issue but rather just trying to make a metaphorical point… He is being ferocious. Why do you focus on what he is typing here in this thread but not in others. In his day and age he did not know better, and this is the only way he can communicate with a world that has passed him by. I for one take all that RGCheek had to say and only obey and agree with the fuzzy nice, politically agreeable stuff. Like RGCheek and I like the same sports team so whatever he types about that we agree on, but in this he is being taken out of context. He meant corporal punishment as an abstract concept, not a real life option that he thinks parents can use.

Or.
Perhaps RGcheek meant what he typed exactly. Perhaps the Pope meant what he said as well.

(Sorry RGCheek if I got your sex wrong, and sorry that I used you to make a point.)
Click to expand...
I don’t doubt RGCheek meant what he typed (sorry, RGCheek, for constantly referring to you in the third person now). It seems to me he is attempting to somehow ennoble hitting our kids (correct me if I’m wrong), and I have to disagree.

The Pope certainly meant what he said too, except he isn’t here on this forum to clarify. If he meant smacking a kid on the bottom is better than hitting them on the face, I could agree with that, though it hardly seems an ideal worth aspiring to (why not just not hit them at all?). If he is actually endorsing hitting our kids on a regular basis as some program of love and discipline (setting limits, in RGCheek’s words), then I very much think we can do better as parents.
 
Pope Francis is nothing, if not chatty.
This is probably a good thing, because it is changing the relationship that Catholics have with the pope. Just because the pope says something, it doesn’t mean that everyone has to agree, or that what he says carries a lot of theological weight.

For too long, Catholics have had the tendency to take the pope’s position on any given matter as the Catholic position, and if the pope said it, then those Catholics who disagreed have been put down in arguments as taking a non Catholic point of view. I think that with this chatty pope who weighs in on everything, like someone in the neighborhood who comes over to drink coffee everyday, it is impossible for everyone to agree with him all the time, and it is a bad idea to do so at any rate.

The point is the conversation, and not who is right or wrong. The best answer comes out in having the discussion.
 
Darryl1958 said:
Pope Francis is nothing, if not chatty.
This is probably a good thing, because it is changing the relationship that Catholics have with the pope. Just because the pope says something, it doesn’t mean that everyone has to agree, or that what he says carries a lot of theological weight.

For too long, Catholics have had the tendency to take the pope’s position on any given matter as the Catholic position, and if the pope said it, then those Catholics who disagreed have been put down in arguments as taking a non Catholic point of view. I think that with this chatty pope who weighs in on everything, like someone in the neighborhood who comes over to drink coffee everyday, it is impossible for everyone to agree with him all the time, and it is a bad idea to do so at any rate.

The point is the conversation, and not who is right or wrong. The best answer comes out in having the discussion.
Click to expand...
I love this post. 👍

:blessyou:
 
christofirst said:
RGCheek’s rather passionate defense of corporal punishment (at least in the post directed at me) surprised me and got me thinking again. Am I wrong in thinking that violence begets violence? The idea of a cycle of violence is almost overused now, so it will likely be dismissed by proponents of corporal punishment, but I maintain it is still a valid point. We teach our kids to solve problems with violence when we hit them. It is true, children often hit others without ever being hit themselves (could it be instinctual? Like an animal?), but we parents can either discourage or reinforce this violent behavior by our response.

Now I suspect in this case the Pope was just speaking off-the-cuff again, encouraging what he considered to be loving parental involvement in the lives of their children, and certainly not attempting to establish a Theology of Corporal Punishment.

So I submit 2 links, one based on a Catholic Bishops’ statement on corporal punishment, and the other his own consideration, both from family counselor and Catholic psychologist Greg Popcak:

patheos.com/blogs/faithonthecouch/2013/07/catholic-bishops-weigh-in-on-corporal-punishment/

nospank.net/popcak.htm
Click to expand...
Thank you for posting this Christofirst.

I’ve read one and will hopefully be able to read the other soon. I can so relate to the seemingly conflicting verses in scripture and look forward to reading how they sorted it out.
In an earlier post you mentioned how The Pope’s words could hurt some who have been abused through the use of corporal punishment. I guess I can see that through how people are reacting from some of the posts here. For some reason I did not take the Pope’s words to be condoning the use of Corporal Punishment and did not take offense to it even if he was. I am not sure of all the reasons why and will have to continue pondering it. Right now all I can say is I found his words to be very pastorally in nature and if Longingsoul is correct I have more confidence that just because I did resort to spanking my children it was not because I am or was intrinsically evil in doing it. And trust me I used to see and think I was and that there was something seriously wrong with me and that I was totally corrupting and ruining my children’s lives. When I did resort to spanking I did become very conflicted. I began to think that maybe sometimes children do need to be spanked. What made me stop was mainly because in reflecting on it I realized I did it because I had run out of patience. I also just did not like doing it. Period!. So I stopped and instead of swatting him on his bottom I started to try other methods. (I so hope I do not sound like I swatted him on a regular bases because I didn’t.) We did good with other methods. Some worked some didn’t. We are still learning and it would probably take writting a book to explain everyhing we have learned from why I would resort to it and why things would even escalade to that point. It has been about three or four years now since the last time I spanked him. Would I ever resort to it again in the future? I can honestly say no! I wouldn’t! I have learned, through the Grace of God, other skills to keep myself from getting to that point and other methods of handling his tantrums and rebelliousness. I have a whole new and more indepth understanding of why I was resorting to it in the first place. The biggest understanding is simple because I was out of patience and didn’t want to be deeling with another tantrum or rebellious fit or problem. Now I just have to work on my going of yelling moments and slamming doors moments. :o
Two things I read about the time I took a much deeper and harder look at my parenting skills was that some place in scripture it says we are not supposed to provoke our children to anger and I also caught a program on TV with a Rabbi explaining that the fith commandment was not just about children honoring their parents but also expounded on how parents were not supposed to be stumbling blocks for thier children.
In my personally journey on this subject I have found a lot of what you are saying in your post to be true. The more respectful I am wih my son the more respectful he is and the more I set the correct example for him in how to handle himself when he has no more patience the better he is. Anyway sorry to have rambled on thank you again for the links and your posts.
 
Robert_Sock said:
How so? Sounds outrageous to equate hugs with corporeal punishment!
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When the physical attention is unwanted by the child. (Ever been told to kiss some old auntie you did not want to kiss. It’s just as bad for the old auntie.)
When the child has an aversion to contact.(Autism Spectrum Disorder and extremely shy kids)
When a child had been violated and may or may not have told somebody.

Its extremely important to let children choose to show affection other wise a kiss and a hug can be as punishing as a slap or a punch
 
Antegin said:
When the physical attention is unwanted by the child. (Ever been told to kiss some old auntie you did not want to kiss. It’s just as bad for the old auntie.)
When the child has an aversion to contact.(Autism Spectrum Disorder and extremely shy kids)
When a child had been violated and may or may not have told somebody.

Its extremely important to let children choose to show affection other wise a kiss and a hug can be as punishing as a slap or a punch
Click to expand...
It still sounds absurd to me to equate kissing and hugging to smacking a child. Good parenting does not include much corporeal punishment.
 
simple_soul said:
Thank you for posting this Christofirst.

I’ve read one and will hopefully be able to read the other soon. I can so relate to the seemingly conflicting verses in scripture and look forward to reading how they sorted it out.
In an earlier post you mentioned how The Pope’s words could hurt some who have been abused through the use of corporal punishment. I guess I can see that through how people are reacting from some of the posts here. For some reason I did not take the Pope’s words to be condoning the use of Corporal Punishment and did not take offense to it even if he was. I am not sure of all the reasons why and will have to continue pondering it. Right now all I can say is I found his words to be very pastorally in nature and if Longingsoul is correct I have more confidence that just because I did resort to spanking my children it was not because I am or was intrinsically evil in doing it. And trust me I used to see and think I was and that there was something seriously wrong with me and that I was totally corrupting and ruining my children’s lives. When I did resort to spanking I did become very conflicted. I began to think that maybe sometimes children do need to be spanked. What made me stop was mainly because in reflecting on it I realized I did it because I had run out of patience. I also just did not like doing it. Period!. So I stopped and instead of swatting him on his bottom I started to try other methods. (I so hope I do not sound like I swatted him on a regular bases because I didn’t.) We did good with other methods. Some worked some didn’t. We are still learning and it would probably take writting a book to explain everyhing we have learned from why I would resort to it and why things would even escalade to that point. It has been about three or four years now since the last time I spanked him. Would I ever resort to it again in the future? I can honestly say no! I wouldn’t! I have learned, through the Grace of God, other skills to keep myself from getting to that point and other methods of handling his tantrums and rebelliousness. I have a whole new and more indepth understanding of why I was resorting to it in the first place. The biggest understanding is simple because I was out of patience and didn’t want to be deeling with another tantrum or rebellious fit or problem. Now I just have to work on my going of yelling moments and slamming doors moments. :o
Two things I read about the time I took a much deeper and harder look at my parenting skills was that some place in scripture it says we are not supposed to provoke our children to anger and I also caught a program on TV with a Rabbi explaining that the fith commandment was not just about children honoring their parents but also expounded on how parents were not supposed to be stumbling blocks for thier children.
In my personally journey on this subject I have found a lot of what you are saying in your post to be true. The more respectful I am wih my son the more respectful he is and the more I set the correct example for him in how to handle himself when he has no more patience the better he is. Anyway sorry to have rambled on thank you again for the links and your posts.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for sharing this! I personally grew up without being spanked and I have very good manners. 😉

I was taught to be polite. My father did have a temper and raised his voice a fair amount, which instilled terror in me. (We haven’t gotten into yelling here.) Maybe that was just keeping me in line, but he later told me when I was grown up that the worst years of that had been the worst in his life (he had been stressed and unhappy). I would ask him to please not do it, even when young. (He was moody; wonderful to terrifying.) My stepsisters (of about 5 years; we are still close) were both firmly convinced my father was “abusive.” I am not sure I agree with that assessment. I am much better mannered than they are and I never got in trouble; they were bad news before they hit our doorstep. 😉 My point is that parents do carry out bad tempers and moods on children. This can be a fine line with appropriate discipline.

And I do think that physical discipline is basically just monkey see, monkey do. My dad/mom did it so I do it…unless any of you can point me to a case where a parent who wasn’t spanked took it up with his/her offspring…I’d be surprised…
 
That is the most extreme example I have ever heard. Yes, parents should always be receptive to a child’s thoughts, feelings and general experience, but with 99.9% of children, hugs are not psychologically or physically abusive to the child the way corporeal punishment is.
 
Anything that causes the psychological abuse of a child is wrong, even in those extreme cases where the abuse is a hug.
 
I found this video interesting … it wasn’t what I was looking for. I was looking for a video where a whole tribe surrounds a person who has done wrong and they sit around and tell the kid all of his strengths, ending in a hugfest and better behavior.

But since I didn’t find that one, here is this other I found interesting:

Parenting - Kids and Discipline Across Cultures
 
What about bashing a kids head up against a wall, is that okay? Just wondering…
 
From what I’ve heard autistic kids have serious problems with emotion; isn’t that just a basic part of the condition? They very often can’t express affection or understand it when it comes from another, even close family members. That is part of what makes it such an incredible ordeal for the family; the kids don’t even make meaningful eye contact, they can lash out without warning or reason, are wildly inconsistent day by day in terms of responsiveness, etc. Sounds like a nightmare to me; I really feel for these families.

Surely no one here is advocating paddling them! :eek:😉
 
The actual verses from Proverbs state it more forcefully in my opinion.

Proverbs 22:15

Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him.

Proverbs 23:13

Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
 
Robert_Sock said:
Anything that causes the psychological abuse of a child is wrong, even in those extreme cases where the abuse is a hug.
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The phrase ‘psychological abuse’ is a slippery slope if I ever saw one.

What was considered psychological abuse in 1950 is not nearly the same as it is today.

That is why we have an Eternal Word and a Magisterium to guide us, and not a shrink profession that is as fickle as a desert wind.
 
Mystical_Seeker said:
I was just offering an example of an animal who “analyzes her options” so why are you getting your panties in a wad about it?
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No animal analyzes anything as they do not have the concepts to do so.

Your assertion is lacking a dose of reality.
 
christofirst said:
RGCheek’s rather passionate defense of corporal punishment (at least in the post directed at me) surprised me and got me thinking again. Am I wrong in thinking that violence begets violence? The idea of a cycle of violence is almost overused now, so it will likely be dismissed by proponents of corporal punishment, but I maintain it is still a valid point. We teach our kids to solve problems with violence when we hit them. It is true, children often hit others without ever being hit themselves (could it be instinctual? Like an animal?), but we parents can either discourage or reinforce this violent behavior by our response.
Click to expand...
Violence is not in and of itself immoral, though it obviously isn’t PC unless directed against those opposed to the PC.

Violence in the defense of ones life or the life of another is justified and righteous and has ALWAYS been deemed so by the church and it still is.

You use the word like it only encompasses evil uses and that is a false implication.

And the whole notion that ‘violence begets violence’ is absurdly simplistic. I am a witness to violence being used to END violence against the innocent and that is a good use and ends any proverbial cycle of violence.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
RGCheek did not mean what he typed. Perhaps he is the product of his culture, perhaps he is the proud orator who is misunderstood. Or perhaps he did not know how his posts would be taken. The problem is that you are taking what he typed off the cuff. This is Catholic Answers and he is not speaking of a theological issue but rather just trying to make a metaphorical point… He is being ferocious. Why do you focus on what he is typing here in this thread but not in others. In his day and age he did not know better, and this is the only way he can communicate with a world that has passed him by. I for one take all that RGCheek had to say and only obey and agree with the fuzzy nice, politically agreeable stuff. Like RGCheek and I like the same sports team so whatever he types about that we agree on, but in this he is being taken out of context. He meant corporal punishment as an abstract concept, not a real life option that he thinks parents can use.

Or.
Perhaps RGcheek meant what he typed exactly. Perhaps the Pope meant what he said as well.
Click to expand...
Yes, interesting logic, but of course I meant every word of it.

But can you imagine the stress the Pope must feel knowing that not only erudite scholars but also every crank and loon out there will twist his words, mistranslate them and sometimes just lie so they can attack the Church and God’s Truth?

I think I pray for the Pope about every day, at least I know I do when I think about the crucial job he has and the enemies who lie in wait for him to stumble.
 
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